God and freedom

[Finding Truth]

This subject is about freedom..

Yes, I asked for the mods to split your evolution topic into a new thread and move it where appropriate.

You will have to excuse me I am very unfamiliar with all this and just finding my way.

When I put my blog or whatever you call it in I did not know how to go about placing it in the right category, I still don't.

any time I do wrong thing please do tell me, and I would appreciate that very much. and pointers in the right direction

I will put to use what Keith&co said, I did once use reply with quote, but did dot want all the quotes in it, but I think I have got the Idea, thank you for that.

 

[DBT]

This subject is about freedom.

are we talking about complete freedom.

and what that would mean for everyone.

and how would it bring happiness to all.

I want to get the right understanding of freedom from how other view it.

What is 'complete freedom?' What would it look like in practice?

 

[dx713]

This subject is about freedom..

Yes, I asked for the mods to split your evolution topic into a new thread and move it where appropriate.

You will have to excuse me I am very unfamiliar with all this and just finding my way.

When I put my blog or whatever you call it in I did not know how to go about placing it in the right category, I still don't.

any time I do wrong thing please do tell me, and I would appreciate that very much. and pointers in the right direction

I will put to use what Keith&co said, I did once use reply with quote, but did dot want all the quotes in it, but I think I have got the Idea, thank you for that.

You can find the "evolution split" thread there.

 

[Finding Truth]

Wow.
But, actions having consequences is true whether or not there's a deity hiding himself away somewhere. So what benefit does God give us?
Books written by unknown persons for unknown reasons? We still have those, we just don't all believe they're worth a shit.
God hasn't done anything to show me that any of the characterizations, or candidate fictions are anything but human invention. Just like the various books and stories of gods fucking with humans, leading humans, creating and killing humans... Feh.

I have to agree with you about the gods you are talking about, those are gods made up in the past, and because of lack knowledge and understanding and could only imagine gods that were like humans and thought like humans and acted like humans. We with our present understanding find that distasteful and so we should.

I do not like using the term God, because it is now associated with acts that are no better than humans and it is done in the name of god.

I would say religion although it may have some good points has been the greatest culprit in dishonouring this god. For it has been used to control the masses, and committed atrocities in the name of god to gain power and control, and more.

The trouble with this is that atheist are basing their decision on what god is based on what so called religion and what religious people think what god is based on past erroneous teachings and then added to more false teachings without question. In fact they were to accept it otherwise they would be displeasing to god.

This is why I say we have to go back to the beginning of any thought, tradition, teaching, or belief and see if it started on a correct foundation if not lets go back to the drawing board.

This is why I will rarely quote so called authorities and only when they have the facts to the best of their knowledge. Free thinkers should be able to reason on the evidence around them and the provable evidence others have discovered, and cut out their personal opinions and theories that do not stand up to scrutiny.

With the knowledge and understanding we have today should get us closer to the truth of the matter, knowledge and understanding is ongoing, we have to move with it or we will end up with falsehood only to be undermined in the future, so lets get it correct now.

I would have thought that is what TALK FREETHOUGHT came into existence for to iron out fact from fiction, so let’s go for it and make this a site with real clout.

I will not use the word god unless it fits the subject and context, therefore the term I will use for this entity is THE UNIVERSAL INTELLIGENCE because the fact is that every thing that we understand as reality smacks of purpose, design and an extremely high intelligence.

 

[dx713]

I will not use the word god unless it fits the subject and context, therefore the term I will use for this entity is THE UNIVERSAL INTELLIGENCE

Good on you not being one of those deist who refuse to define their "god", but:

because the fact is that every thing that we understand as reality smacks of purpose, design and an extremely high intelligence.

Citation needed, as they say on wikipedia.
The fact is that every thing that YOU understand as reality smacks, FOR YOU, of purpose, design and an extremely high intelligence.
Every thing that I understand as reality smacks of pure mechanical application of nature's laws.
The only "god" I can think of debating instead of laughing out is NATURE or UNIVERSE, aka pantheists' god or Spinoza's god and its various understandings.

I think it's telling that you, who interpret what you see as design or intelligence, is the one who, from what I understand from your blog post, misunderstands science so much...

 

[Keith&Co.]

I have to agree with you about the gods you are talking about, those are gods made up in the past, and because of lack knowledge and understanding and could only imagine gods that were like humans and thought like humans and acted like humans. We with our present understanding find that distasteful and so we should.

Why 'distasteful?' It's how we went about trying to understand the universe. Stars have patterns because they have meaning, the rainbow has meaning, thunder has agency, death is not random, suffering has a purpose. What's distasteful about that?

I would say religion although it may have some good points has been the greatest culprit in dishonouring this god. For it has been used to control the masses, and committed atrocities in the name of god to gain power and control, and more.

Men being men can't dishonor something men have invented. No more than using Bugs Bunny to sell war bonds makes him a war monger.
Men being men just dishonor the men.

The trouble with this is that atheist are basing their decision on what god is based on what so called religion and what religious people think what god is based on past erroneous teachings and then added to more false teachings without question.

No....
No, that's not true. I don't reject god because someone says he's going to send lots of people to Hell, or because she wants blood sacrifices, or because they made the world and i'm displeased with the size of the avocado's pit.
I reject all the gods because i don't think they're real. I don't see any reason to accept them as real.
IF i thought they were real, i might still withhold worship of such petty little beasts as religions describe.
But that'd be 'why i'm apostate,' not why i'm currently an atheist.

This is why I say we have to go back to the beginning of any thought, tradition, teaching, or belief and see if it started on a correct foundation if not lets go back to the drawing board.

The correct foundation would be some evidence that gods exist, would it not?

Got any?

This is why I will rarely quote so called authorities and only when they have the facts to the best of their knowledge. Free thinkers should be able to reason on the evidence around them and the provable evidence others have discovered, and cut out their personal opinions and theories that do not stand up to scrutiny.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOTS of apologists take this stance.
LOOOOOOOOOOOTS of apologists offer up 'evidence' that doesn't stand up to scrutiny, and when it's rejected, claim that it's the atheists bias, not a failure of their evidence. Are you going to be like that?

Just curious.

I would have thought that is what TALK FREETHOUGHT came into existence for to iron out fact from fiction, so let’s go for it and make this a site with real clout.

Sounds like you're pre-positioning yourself to claim that it's the atheist bias.

therefore the term I will use for this entity is THE UNIVERSAL INTELLIGENCE because the fact is that every thing that we understand as reality smacks of purpose, design and an extremely high intelligence.

Demonstrate this 'fact,' please?
Define 'purpose' and how one would detect it in, say, a pebble?

 

[Mageth]

This is why I say we have to go back to the beginning of any thought, tradition, teaching, or belief and see if it started on a correct foundation if not lets go back to the drawing board.

So you're proposing to invent a new god to believe in.

Go right ahead. But note that invented gods are a dime a dozen. It'll be just one more invented god for me to lack belief in.

 

[Underseer]

This is why I say we have to go back to the beginning of any thought, tradition, teaching, or belief and see if it started on a correct foundation if not lets go back to the drawing board.

So you're proposing to invent a new god to believe in.

Go right ahead. But note that invented gods are a dime a dozen. It'll be just one more invented god for me to lack belief in.

Why does it have to be a god at all? My mechanical pencil is obviously morally superior to his god, therefore we should worship my mechanical pencil. How else do you explain the existence of truth if my mechanical pencil didn't create it?

 

[Mageth]

This is why I say we have to go back to the beginning of any thought, tradition, teaching, or belief and see if it started on a correct foundation if not lets go back to the drawing board.

So you're proposing to invent a new god to believe in.

Go right ahead. But note that invented gods are a dime a dozen. It'll be just one more invented god for me to lack belief in.

Why does it have to be a god at all? My mechanical pencil is obviously morally superior to his god, therefore we should worship my mechanical pencil. How else do you explain the existence of truth if my mechanical pencil didn't create it?

A quick search found a best price on a dozen mechanical pencils to be about $3.80 US. So mechanical pencils are pricier than gods as well, as gods regularly go for a dime a dozen.

 

[Keith&Co.]

How else do you explain the existence of truth if my mechanical pencil didn't create it?

Hmmm.
You're either going to get a presentation on the nature of truth and why it requires an eternal sponsor of ultimate intelligence....
Or you'll get another lecture about how you fail to be a true freethinker.

I know where my quatloos are going...

 

[braces_for_impact]

So many times I hear from the Christian right about how the founding of America is rooted in biblical principles. I keep asking myself, are these people reading the same bible I am? There's nothing in there about justice, equal representation, democracy, or human or equal rights. There is only what you would expect from such an antique document. The divine right of kings to rule. Hello? *knock knock* is there anyone in there?

Equal rights
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

We all have the same status before God. Originally made in his image.

Only Christian men should be rulers Exodus 18:21

"Thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers."

Leviticus 25 44-46

Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever.

Exodus 21 20-21

And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

1 Corinthians 11:3

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

I could find literally dozens of verses which contradict yours. I simply haven't the time. God and Jesus are KING, as Christians are always reminding us. Not representatives, not head of a parliament, an absolute ruler.

 

[Underseer]

How else do you explain the existence of truth if my mechanical pencil didn't create it?

Hmmm.
You're either going to get a presentation on the nature of truth and why it requires an eternal sponsor of ultimate intelligence....
Or you'll get another lecture about how you fail to be a true freethinker.

I know where my quatloos are going...

In other words, you can't explain how the truth came to be, therefore my mechanical pencil is proven to be the source of all truth in the universe.

 

[Keith&Co.]

In other words, you can't explain how the truth came to be, therefore my mechanical pencil is proven to be the source of all truth in the universe.

I must spread reputation around...

 

[dockeen]

Wow.
But, actions having consequences is true whether or not there's a deity hiding himself away somewhere. So what benefit does God give us?
Books written by unknown persons for unknown reasons? We still have those, we just don't all believe they're worth a shit.
God hasn't done anything to show me that any of the characterizations, or candidate fictions are anything but human invention. Just like the various books and stories of gods fucking with humans, leading humans, creating and killing humans... Feh.

I have to agree with you about the gods you are talking about, those are gods made up in the past, and because of lack knowledge and understanding and could only imagine gods that were like humans and thought like humans and acted like humans. We with our present understanding find that distasteful and so we should.

I do not like using the term God, because it is now associated with acts that are no better than humans and it is done in the name of god.

I would say religion although it may have some good points has been the greatest culprit in dishonouring this god. For it has been used to control the masses, and committed atrocities in the name of god to gain power and control, and more.

The trouble with this is that atheist are basing their decision on what god is based on what so called religion and what religious people think what god is based on past erroneous teachings and then added to more false teachings without question. In fact they were to accept it otherwise they would be displeasing to god.

This is why I say we have to go back to the beginning of any thought, tradition, teaching, or belief and see if it started on a correct foundation if not lets go back to the drawing board.

This is why I will rarely quote so called authorities and only when they have the facts to the best of their knowledge. Free thinkers should be able to reason on the evidence around them and the provable evidence others have discovered, and cut out their personal opinions and theories that do not stand up to scrutiny.

With the knowledge and understanding we have today should get us closer to the truth of the matter, knowledge and understanding is ongoing, we have to move with it or we will end up with falsehood only to be undermined in the future, so lets get it correct now.

I would have thought that is what TALK FREETHOUGHT came into existence for to iron out fact from fiction, so let’s go for it and make this a site with real clout.

I will not use the word god unless it fits the subject and context, therefore the term I will use for this entity is THE UNIVERSAL INTELLIGENCE because the fact is that every thing that we understand as reality smacks of purpose, design and an extremely high intelligence.

So would it be correct to assume that you would take it as axiomatic that if a system has a certain degree of...."complexity", and it works, it must have been designed.

 

[Underseer]

Wow.
But, actions having consequences is true whether or not there's a deity hiding himself away somewhere. So what benefit does God give us?
Books written by unknown persons for unknown reasons? We still have those, we just don't all believe they're worth a shit.
God hasn't done anything to show me that any of the characterizations, or candidate fictions are anything but human invention. Just like the various books and stories of gods fucking with humans, leading humans, creating and killing humans... Feh.

I have to agree with you about the gods you are talking about, those are gods made up in the past, and because of lack knowledge and understanding and could only imagine gods that were like humans and thought like humans and acted like humans. We with our present understanding find that distasteful and so we should.

I do not like using the term God, because it is now associated with acts that are no better than humans and it is done in the name of god.

I would say religion although it may have some good points has been the greatest culprit in dishonouring this god. For it has been used to control the masses, and committed atrocities in the name of god to gain power and control, and more.

The trouble with this is that atheist are basing their decision on what god is based on what so called religion and what religious people think what god is based on past erroneous teachings and then added to more false teachings without question. In fact they were to accept it otherwise they would be displeasing to god.

This is why I say we have to go back to the beginning of any thought, tradition, teaching, or belief and see if it started on a correct foundation if not lets go back to the drawing board.

This is why I will rarely quote so called authorities and only when they have the facts to the best of their knowledge. Free thinkers should be able to reason on the evidence around them and the provable evidence others have discovered, and cut out their personal opinions and theories that do not stand up to scrutiny.

With the knowledge and understanding we have today should get us closer to the truth of the matter, knowledge and understanding is ongoing, we have to move with it or we will end up with falsehood only to be undermined in the future, so lets get it correct now.

I would have thought that is what TALK FREETHOUGHT came into existence for to iron out fact from fiction, so let’s go for it and make this a site with real clout.

I will not use the word god unless it fits the subject and context, therefore the term I will use for this entity is THE UNIVERSAL INTELLIGENCE because the fact is that every thing that we understand as reality smacks of purpose, design and an extremely high intelligence.

So would it be correct to assume that you would take it as axiomatic that if a system has a certain degree of...."complexity", and it works, it must have been designed.

Correct.

That's how we know science is lying when it claims that snowflakes are created by natural forces. Anyone who respects logic understands that each individual snowflake is a separate act of creation by a Designer using magic, because that is the only possible explanation for snowflakes that I can understand.

 

[Keith&Co.]

So would it be correct to assume that you would take it as axiomatic that if a system has a certain degree of...."complexity", and it works, it must have been designed.

Gosh, i hope so. I've always wanted to know a good way to measure complexity.
It's in degrees?

 

[Mageth]

I will not use the word god unless it fits the subject and context, therefore the term I will use for this entity is THE UNIVERSAL INTELLIGENCE because the fact is that every thing that we understand as reality smacks of purpose, design and an extremely high intelligence.

Umm...I fail to see any significant difference in your "THE UNIVERSAL INTELLIGENCE" entity and the average, run-of-the-mill god notion that gets asserted around here all the time.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Of course, TS has a different take on explanations:

When explanations are difficult, complex, tedious, very long, that person has not got to the full truth of the matter and or does not fully understand the subject himself, otherwise he would be able to put it into simple terms.

So, complexity is a sign of intelligence if we see it in reality, but if we hear it in an explanation, that's a sign of ignorance.

There's a webcomic character, Kin, who tried to explain why another character should not pee on a magical artifact. Being an intellectual, her first attempt was something Spock might have tried, explaining the magical potential and that the stream of fluid would act as a vector to convey this potential to his physical form, even traveling upstream against the urine... Then she noted that his eyes were glazing over.
her second attempt, "Penis go boom," did transfer the POINT she was trying to get across, though detail was lost in the stepping-down.

The point to note, here, is that her complex explanation was perfectly accurate, and not a sign of her own ignorance. The 'simpler' explanation was required, not by her lack of understanding, but by the idiot's inability to grasp complicated explanations.

I would suggest that both TS' stands on complexity are personal issues, not dependable axioms about how the universe, or explanations, work.

 

[DiamondH]

So would it be correct to assume that you would take it as axiomatic that if a system has a certain degree of...."complexity", and it works, it must have been designed.

Gosh, i hope so. I've always wanted to know a good way to measure complexity.
It's in degrees?

I think Demskis are the preferred term, but that's too big for everyday use so most measurements are in millidempskis.