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God and freedom

Mageth

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Consequences are always based on a given set of principles. In the case of God and the issue tolerance, assuming the existence of God, it is God that shapes and forms the set of principles that determines the consequences of dissent. Consequently, it is God who demands obedience by imposing harsh consequences.

Disobedience always has harsh consequences.

If you have an abusive, controlling father.
 

Mageth

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Consequences are always based on a given set of principles. In the case of God and the issue tolerance, assuming the existence of God, it is God that shapes and forms the set of principles that determines the consequences of dissent. Consequently, it is God who demands obedience by imposing harsh consequences.

Disobedience always has harsh consequences.

If you have an abusive, controlling father.

Oh, and I'm an adult. I am no longer a child, and do not need a father to lay down rules and impose consequences for me.
 

Mageth

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And another thing about this disobedience thing, Tigers:

I, like others here, lack belief in god(s), including the god you believe in. And it follows that I do not believe that this god (that I do not believe exists) has commanded me to do or not do anything.

I am not commanded by, and cannot disobey, a fictional entity.
 

Tigers!

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And another thing about this disobedience thing, Tigers:

I, like others here, lack belief in god(s), including the god you believe in. And it follows that I do not believe that this god (that I do not believe exists) has commanded me to do or not do anything.

I am not commanded by, and cannot disobey, a fictional entity.
I don't understand why you spend so much time arguing about what you consider a fictional entity.
You must have lots of spare time.

- - - Updated - - -

Don't know the fellow myself nor had every heard of him.
Foolish people say stupid things all the time.

Don't know him, but willing to write him off as a fool?

Perhaps he knows something you don't?
Perhaps he knows something you don't?

I'm sure that you have never written anyone as a fool without first meeting them.

- - - Updated - - -

Consequences are always based on a given set of principles. In the case of God and the issue tolerance, assuming the existence of God, it is God that shapes and forms the set of principles that determines the consequences of dissent. Consequently, it is God who demands obedience by imposing harsh consequences.

Disobedience always has harsh consequences.

If you have an abusive, controlling father.
Even if you don't have an abusive, controlling father disobedience can still have harsh consequences. Consequences are not dependent upon our parents.
 

bilby

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I don't understand why you spend so much time arguing about what you consider a fictional entity.
You must have lots of spare time.

That would be because so many people use that fictional entity to try to justify interfering with our lives.

Trust me, if people were passing 'niceness' laws to ensure that I could be punished for failing to do Santa's bidding, i would spend plenty of time arguing against Santa's existence.

Fortunately, that isn't necessary with Santa; most adults recognise that he is a fictional character. But it is necessary with God, because plenty of people in positions of power claim that He is real, and pass unjust and/or irrational laws with this as their excuse.
 

GenesisNemesis

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I don't understand why you spend so much time arguing about what you consider a fictional entity.

The concept of god is obviously one of the most powerful concepts in history, and the dominant mode of thinking in many societies is based around the concept of a deity, influencing the decisions of hundreds of millions of people around the world. If it wasn't important there'd be no reason to talk about it.
 

DBT

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Even if you don't have an abusive, controlling father disobedience can still have harsh consequences. Consequences are not dependent upon our parents.

But you are saying that the consequences of 'dissent' are governed up by God. Eternal damnation and torment as punishment for nothing more than having a questioning mind.
 

Tigers!

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Even if you don't have an abusive, controlling father disobedience can still have harsh consequences. Consequences are not dependent upon our parents.

But you are saying that the consequences of 'dissent' are governed up by God. Eternal damnation and torment as punishment for nothing more than having a questioning mind.
The consequences of not being political correct are governed by the whinging class. Punishment for nothing more than having a questioning mind about them and their attitude.

Its the way of the world old boy. Questioning minds are never really appreciated.
 

bilby

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Even if you don't have an abusive, controlling father disobedience can still have harsh consequences. Consequences are not dependent upon our parents.

But you are saying that the consequences of 'dissent' are governed up by God. Eternal damnation and torment as punishment for nothing more than having a questioning mind.
The consequences of not being political correct are governed by the whinging class. Punishment for nothing more than having a questioning mind about them and their attitude.

Its the way of the world old boy. Questioning minds are never really appreciated.

You claim that the way of the world is to not be appreciated for having a questioning mind.

How you get from that slightly questionable claim, to the assertion that it is reasonable for the way of heaven to be tortured in agony for eternity for the same thing is not clear.

It seems fucking insanely disproportionate to me. Like, something that only a psychopathic nut job would even consider for a second.

And yet we are expected to accept that this is perfectly OK when commanded by an individual who is simultaneously described as the embodiment of love and mercy? Pull the other one.

You can claim a psycho nutter God; or a loving merciful God. But not both at once. The paradox kills the idea without resort to further analysis.

If I say I have a table in my garage, it is an unsubstantiated claim. Maybe I do, maybe not.

If I say the table is perfectly round; and is also triangular, then you know I am bullshitting, even if I never let you see inside my garage.

Incoherent God concepts are nonexistent by their own definitions.

You cannot torture your sinners eternally and love them too.

It is perhaps reasonable to consider complaints about being unappreciated as a whinge. Calling somebody a whinger for being unhappy about eternal torture is not on the same scale.
 

Tigers!

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You claim that the way of the world is to not be appreciated for having a questioning mind.

How you get from that slightly questionable claim, to the assertion that it is reasonable for the way of heaven to be tortured in agony for eternity for the same thing is not clear.

It seems fucking insanely disproportionate to me. Like, something that only a psychopathic nut job would even consider for a second.

And yet we are expected to accept that this is perfectly OK when commanded by an individual who is simultaneously described as the embodiment of love and mercy? Pull the other one.

You can claim a psycho nutter God; or a loving merciful God. But not both at once. The paradox kills the idea without resort to further analysis.
I don't make both claims simultaneously. Others might.
If I say I have a table in my garage, it is an unsubstantiated claim. Maybe I do, maybe not.

If I say the table is perfectly round; and is also triangular, then you know I am bullshitting, even if I never let you see inside my garage.

Incoherent God concepts are nonexistent by their own definitions.
I agree that incoherent God concepts are nonexistent by their own definitions.
You cannot torture your sinners eternally and love them too.
I think the Bible never claims that God loves sinners for eternity. If you otherwise please provide quote.
 

DBT

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Even if you don't have an abusive, controlling father disobedience can still have harsh consequences. Consequences are not dependent upon our parents.

But you are saying that the consequences of 'dissent' are governed up by God. Eternal damnation and torment as punishment for nothing more than having a questioning mind.
The consequences of not being political correct are governed by the whinging class. Punishment for nothing more than having a questioning mind about them and their attitude.

Its the way of the world old boy. Questioning minds are never really appreciated.

You are comparing God, the presumed Creator of the Universe, to the 'whinging class' of human society?
 

Kharakov

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This is what would be expected if Gods are the creations of men; but if men were all created with the same status before a single creator God, we would expect to see little or no diversity of religious belief - if it is possible to 'know God', then we all would.
Bilby- you're joking there, right? That's a lot like saying there is only one type of proton in the universe, and you would expect to see little or no diversity of form to arise from its actions.

In fact, it's generally true that with the great varieties of perspective on someone, not everyone will have the same ideas about any individual. Does this mean that someone such as you does not exist because different people have different opinions about you (at least until they get to know you a bit better- then we all know you're an asshole <-- joke).
 

Kharakov

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Remember how I brought down Jesus guys- if you not sinning makes everyone else in the whole universe feel bad about themselves for eternity- you hurt everyone.

Part of the main message, that a lot of people seem to miss, is don't hold a grudge because someone made a fucking mistake, don't look down at them for making a mistake (don't call a fool a fool, or risk a reaction), etc.

Forgive, don't forget, move the fuck on and be nice to everyone, accept atheists or anyone who doesn't believe exactly as I do (me personally), and lay homophone equivocation traps for the unaware.
 

arkirk

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Remember how I brought down Jesus guys- if you not sinning makes everyone else in the whole universe feel bad about themselves for eternity- you hurt everyone.

Part of the main message, that a lot of people seem to miss, is don't hold a grudge because someone made a fucking mistake, don't look down at them for making a mistake (don't call a fool a fool, or risk a reaction), etc.

Forgive, don't forget, move the fuck on and be nice to everyone, accept atheists or anyone who doesn't believe exactly as I do (me personally), and lay homophone equivocation traps for the unaware.

You ought to do pretty good in Jesus land, where everybody is instructed by holy writ to simultaneously "turn the other cheek" and "not suffer a witch to live." In many ways, the atheist has a decided advantage in that he does not have to match his actions and thoughts to ANY PARTICULAR SET OF INSTRUCTIONS FROM GOD. You can forgive the "turn the other cheek" Christians, but what do you do about witch burners?
 

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Philos;

Let us compare this to dissent in other unhappy situations, such as imprisonment in nasty political systems. In these cases we are still free, despite dreadful hardships, to retain our own moral compass. There are many examples, but one is the case of Nelson Mandela on Robben island. Such cases show that it is possible in these earthly sufferings to retain the spark of freedom within ourselves.

Nelson Mandela was a truly remarkable man, with his freedom came the power to seek vengeance on those who had imprisoned him. But he seemed to show a greater side of forgiveness and mercy, I can't imagine too many people choosing his path.

Having said that, compassion, forgiveness and mercy are at the heart of the Gospel message, the greatest commandments are to love God and to love our neighbour. These commandments are not oppressive.
There is nothing compassionate, forgiving, or merciful in Might is Right. Nothing. You can spout all the nice words you want and it won't change the inhumanity of your religion.

Agreed.

Might makes right is the cornerstone of all three Abrahamic religions, and might makes right is the antithesis of anything good.
 

Kharakov

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Forgive, don't forget, move the fuck on and be nice to everyone, accept atheists or anyone who doesn't believe exactly as I do (me personally), and lay homophone equivocation traps for the unaware.

You ought to do pretty good in Jesus land, where everybody is instructed by holy writ to simultaneously "turn the other cheek" and "not suffer a witch to live." In many ways, the atheist has a decided advantage in that he does not have to match his actions and thoughts to ANY PARTICULAR SET OF INSTRUCTIONS FROM GOD.
Well, except for the hard coded instructions that make them what they are. It's not like they have control of their genotype or the environment in which they live...

You can forgive the "turn the other cheek" Christians, but what do you do about witch burners?
Throw them on a pile of witches?
 

Finding Truth

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Could a God give us complete freedom?
YES
But he would have to give bit of advice, because freedom has a sting in its tail.

No need for law or commands, because this advice he would give is self regulating, which means we will punish ourselves.

THIS LAW if you wish to call it, is the law of ACTION AND REACTION OR WE REAP WHAT WE SOW this is part and parcel of complete freedom and with it comes great individual responsibility use it badly and we pay the penalty and wreck havoc on each other in fact this is what is happening to mankind now.

God would say “I have given you complete freedom, that is my gift to you, but now you must give complete freedom to every other person that will ever exist with you, because this is the only safeguard to your existence, security, protection, happiness, peace, unity, joy, your relationship with others and so on.

Another words if you do not respect your freedom and others, (pardon me for using this expression to all atheists) you are going to have hell on earth (this is the only hell anyone will ever experience there is no other)

Now do still want complete freedom or to be a robot?

These observation above is in line with logic, reason, reality, truth, justice and this is how I see the master of eternity thinking, he is not petty, and vindictive certainly not the way most of mankind think, but as a mature eternal entity.

Anyway nobody has been able to prove otherwise. I think the question to ask is not proving there is God; it should be prove that there is no God.

Anyway nobody has been able to prove otherwise. I think the question to ask is not prove there is God, it should be prove that there is no God.
 

Keith&Co.

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THIS LAW if you wish to call it, is the law of ACTION AND REACTION OR WE REAP WHAT WE SOW this is part and parcel of complete freedom and with it comes great individual responsibility use it badly and we pay the penalty and wreck havoc on each other in fact this is what is happening to mankind now.
Wow.
But, actions having consequences is true whether or not there's a deity hiding himself away somewhere. So what benefit does God give us?
Books written by unknown persons for unknown reasons? We still have those, we just don't all believe they're worth a shit.
God hasn't done anything to show me that any of the characterizations, or candidate fictions are anything but human invention. Just like thevarious books and stories of gods fucking with humans, leading humans, creating and killing humans... Feh.
We seem to be on our own, so why pretend someone else out there cares?
God would say “I have given you complete freedom, that is my gift to you, but now you must give complete freedom to every other person that will ever exist with you, because this is the only safeguard to your existence, security, protection, happiness, peace, unity, joy, your relationship with others and so on.
Why would that follow?
Another words if you do not respect your freedom and others, (pardon me for using this expression to all atheists) you are going to have hell on earth (this is the only hell anyone will ever experience there is no other)
Okay.
Again, how would this world be different if there WAS a God that sponsored the various religious rules that people selectively follow and selectively enforce?
Anyway nobody has been able to prove otherwise. I think the question to ask is not proving there is God; it should be prove that there is no God.
"Should be" for what purpose?

I don't particularly feel a need to drive you away from your god, be he hairy thunderer or cosmic muffin.
I also don't see any reason to take your claims of gods or gods' motives or logic or justice at face value.

So, to me, there's no reason to just assume gods are real.
There's no reason to behave as if gods are real.
There's no benefit to living as if gods are real. No more than there is to leaving little gifts at certain trees and hoping the Keebler Elves bring me cookies.

So there's no real reason to think your 'should be' decree impacts anything but yourself.
 

abaddon

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These observation above is in line with logic, reason, reality, truth, justice and this is how I see the master of eternity thinking, he is not petty, and vindictive certainly not the way most of mankind think, but as a mature eternal entity.
Vindictive in the way of a mature eternal entity?

How do you know that? How do you judge such a thing?

Anyway nobody has been able to prove otherwise.
That's not a good basis for believing anything.

I think the question to ask is not prove there is God, it should be prove that there is no God.
Believing what people can't prove one way or another, combined with shifting the burden of proof, may feel kind of liberating. But the result of that freedom is just a "I'm gonna believe whatever" post. You compiled a string of mere opinions, with no foundation in logic or evidence or even a "holy book".

To me that looks like an abuse of "complete freedom", to merely compile opinions about things you can't know.
 

Underseer

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That's not the point, Eric. There's no forgiveness or mercy in eternal damnation, is there?
There's no chance for redemption.
If you regret and truly repent your sins once you're in the lake of fire, you're still fucked.

I believe the world is in the mess it is, because we choose to disobey these commandments.
So...it's okay if we burn in Hell because it's our fault?
Still not a lot of compassion, forgiveness or mercy, Eric.

A lot of petty revenge. meaningless punishment. Torture with no goal.

No mercy...

There is also the larger point: an infinite punishment for a finite crime is infinitely unjust.
 

Mageth

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Having said that, compassion, forgiveness and mercy are at the heart of the Gospel message, the greatest commandments are to love God and to love our neighbour. These commandments are not oppressive.

I know it's been a while, but...

Eric: Have you ever tried commanding someone to love you? A girl, perhaps? If so, how did that work out?
 

Underseer

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Having said that, compassion, forgiveness and mercy are at the heart of the Gospel message, the greatest commandments are to love God and to love our neighbour. These commandments are not oppressive.

I know it's been a while, but...

Eric: Have you ever tried commanding someone to love you? A girl, perhaps? If so, how did that work out?

It works every time. "Rape" is an imaginary crime that was invented by feminazis to oppress and persecute men. *cheeky*
 

Finding Truth

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I am very new at this could somone tell me how to put in a previous quote that I want to reply to that ends up in a box.

what I did was copy and past in the last post.
 

Keith&Co.

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I am very new at this could somone tell me how to put in a previous quote that I want to reply to that ends up in a box.

what I did was copy and past in the last post.
if you hit 'reply with quote' you'll see the entire post with <quote> and </quote> tags around the words.

You can spli toff any words you want to isolate by copying the quote tags to front and back.
 

Finding Truth

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This subject is about freedom.

are we talking about complete freedom.

and what that would mean for everyone.

and how would it bring happiness to all.

I want to get the right understanding of freedom from how other view it.
 

Angry Floof

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This subject is about freedom.

are we talking about complete freedom.

and what that would mean for everyone.

and how would it bring happiness to all.

I want to get the right understanding of freedom from how other view it.
What kind of freedom comes from "believe the correct thoughts and magical things will happen to you"? (Hint: that's occultism.) What kind of freedom comes from "believe a story about blood sacrifice and virgin birth or else suffer eternal punishment"? (Hint: that's sadism.)

What you're peddling is an immature, might-is-right fairy tale. I imagine it's scary to think about freedom from that.
 

Finding Truth

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This subject is about freedom..
Yes, I asked for the mods to split your evolution topic into a new thread and move it where appropriate.

You will have to excuse me I am very unfamiliar with all this and just finding my way.

When I put my blog or whatever you call it in I did not know how to go about placing it in the right category, I still don't.

any time I do wrong thing please do tell me, and I would appreciate that very much. and pointers in the right direction

I will put to use what Keith&co said, I did once use reply with quote, but did dot want all the quotes in it, but I think I have got the Idea, thank you for that.
 

DBT

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This subject is about freedom.

are we talking about complete freedom.

and what that would mean for everyone.

and how would it bring happiness to all.

I want to get the right understanding of freedom from how other view it.

What is 'complete freedom?' What would it look like in practice?
 

dx713

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This subject is about freedom..
Yes, I asked for the mods to split your evolution topic into a new thread and move it where appropriate.

You will have to excuse me I am very unfamiliar with all this and just finding my way.

When I put my blog or whatever you call it in I did not know how to go about placing it in the right category, I still don't.

any time I do wrong thing please do tell me, and I would appreciate that very much. and pointers in the right direction

I will put to use what Keith&co said, I did once use reply with quote, but did dot want all the quotes in it, but I think I have got the Idea, thank you for that.
You can find the "evolution split" thread there.
 

Finding Truth

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Wow.
But, actions having consequences is true whether or not there's a deity hiding himself away somewhere. So what benefit does God give us?
Books written by unknown persons for unknown reasons? We still have those, we just don't all believe they're worth a shit.
God hasn't done anything to show me that any of the characterizations, or candidate fictions are anything but human invention. Just like the various books and stories of gods fucking with humans, leading humans, creating and killing humans... Feh.

I have to agree with you about the gods you are talking about, those are gods made up in the past, and because of lack knowledge and understanding and could only imagine gods that were like humans and thought like humans and acted like humans. We with our present understanding find that distasteful and so we should.

I do not like using the term God, because it is now associated with acts that are no better than humans and it is done in the name of god.

I would say religion although it may have some good points has been the greatest culprit in dishonouring this god. For it has been used to control the masses, and committed atrocities in the name of god to gain power and control, and more.

The trouble with this is that atheist are basing their decision on what god is based on what so called religion and what religious people think what god is based on past erroneous teachings and then added to more false teachings without question. In fact they were to accept it otherwise they would be displeasing to god.

This is why I say we have to go back to the beginning of any thought, tradition, teaching, or belief and see if it started on a correct foundation if not lets go back to the drawing board.

This is why I will rarely quote so called authorities and only when they have the facts to the best of their knowledge. Free thinkers should be able to reason on the evidence around them and the provable evidence others have discovered, and cut out their personal opinions and theories that do not stand up to scrutiny.

With the knowledge and understanding we have today should get us closer to the truth of the matter, knowledge and understanding is ongoing, we have to move with it or we will end up with falsehood only to be undermined in the future, so lets get it correct now.

I would have thought that is what TALK FREETHOUGHT came into existence for to iron out fact from fiction, so let’s go for it and make this a site with real clout.

I will not use the word god unless it fits the subject and context, therefore the term I will use for this entity is THE UNIVERSAL INTELLIGENCE because the fact is that every thing that we understand as reality smacks of purpose, design and an extremely high intelligence.
 

dx713

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I will not use the word god unless it fits the subject and context, therefore the term I will use for this entity is THE UNIVERSAL INTELLIGENCE
Good on you not being one of those deist who refuse to define their "god", but:
because the fact is that every thing that we understand as reality smacks of purpose, design and an extremely high intelligence.
Citation needed, as they say on wikipedia.
The fact is that every thing that YOU understand as reality smacks, FOR YOU, of purpose, design and an extremely high intelligence.
Every thing that I understand as reality smacks of pure mechanical application of nature's laws.
The only "god" I can think of debating instead of laughing out is NATURE or UNIVERSE, aka pantheists' god or Spinoza's god and its various understandings.

I think it's telling that you, who interpret what you see as design or intelligence, is the one who, from what I understand from your blog post, misunderstands science so much...
 

Keith&Co.

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I have to agree with you about the gods you are talking about, those are gods made up in the past, and because of lack knowledge and understanding and could only imagine gods that were like humans and thought like humans and acted like humans. We with our present understanding find that distasteful and so we should.
Why 'distasteful?' It's how we went about trying to understand the universe. Stars have patterns because they have meaning, the rainbow has meaning, thunder has agency, death is not random, suffering has a purpose. What's distasteful about that?
I would say religion although it may have some good points has been the greatest culprit in dishonouring this god. For it has been used to control the masses, and committed atrocities in the name of god to gain power and control, and more.
Men being men can't dishonor something men have invented. No more than using Bugs Bunny to sell war bonds makes him a war monger.
Men being men just dishonor the men.
The trouble with this is that atheist are basing their decision on what god is based on what so called religion and what religious people think what god is based on past erroneous teachings and then added to more false teachings without question.
No....
No, that's not true. I don't reject god because someone says he's going to send lots of people to Hell, or because she wants blood sacrifices, or because they made the world and i'm displeased with the size of the avocado's pit.
I reject all the gods because i don't think they're real. I don't see any reason to accept them as real.
IF i thought they were real, i might still withhold worship of such petty little beasts as religions describe.
But that'd be 'why i'm apostate,' not why i'm currently an atheist.
This is why I say we have to go back to the beginning of any thought, tradition, teaching, or belief and see if it started on a correct foundation if not lets go back to the drawing board.
The correct foundation would be some evidence that gods exist, would it not?

Got any?
This is why I will rarely quote so called authorities and only when they have the facts to the best of their knowledge. Free thinkers should be able to reason on the evidence around them and the provable evidence others have discovered, and cut out their personal opinions and theories that do not stand up to scrutiny.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOTS of apologists take this stance.
LOOOOOOOOOOOTS of apologists offer up 'evidence' that doesn't stand up to scrutiny, and when it's rejected, claim that it's the atheists bias, not a failure of their evidence. Are you going to be like that?

Just curious.
I would have thought that is what TALK FREETHOUGHT came into existence for to iron out fact from fiction, so let’s go for it and make this a site with real clout.
Sounds like you're pre-positioning yourself to claim that it's the atheist bias.
therefore the term I will use for this entity is THE UNIVERSAL INTELLIGENCE because the fact is that every thing that we understand as reality smacks of purpose, design and an extremely high intelligence.
Demonstrate this 'fact,' please?
Define 'purpose' and how one would detect it in, say, a pebble?
 

Mageth

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This is why I say we have to go back to the beginning of any thought, tradition, teaching, or belief and see if it started on a correct foundation if not lets go back to the drawing board.

So you're proposing to invent a new god to believe in.

Go right ahead. But note that invented gods are a dime a dozen. It'll be just one more invented god for me to lack belief in.
 

Underseer

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This is why I say we have to go back to the beginning of any thought, tradition, teaching, or belief and see if it started on a correct foundation if not lets go back to the drawing board.

So you're proposing to invent a new god to believe in.

Go right ahead. But note that invented gods are a dime a dozen. It'll be just one more invented god for me to lack belief in.

Why does it have to be a god at all? My mechanical pencil is obviously morally superior to his god, therefore we should worship my mechanical pencil. How else do you explain the existence of truth if my mechanical pencil didn't create it?
 

Mageth

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This is why I say we have to go back to the beginning of any thought, tradition, teaching, or belief and see if it started on a correct foundation if not lets go back to the drawing board.

So you're proposing to invent a new god to believe in.

Go right ahead. But note that invented gods are a dime a dozen. It'll be just one more invented god for me to lack belief in.

Why does it have to be a god at all? My mechanical pencil is obviously morally superior to his god, therefore we should worship my mechanical pencil. How else do you explain the existence of truth if my mechanical pencil didn't create it?

A quick search found a best price on a dozen mechanical pencils to be about $3.80 US. So mechanical pencils are pricier than gods as well, as gods regularly go for a dime a dozen. ;)
 

Keith&Co.

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How else do you explain the existence of truth if my mechanical pencil didn't create it?
Hmmm.
You're either going to get a presentation on the nature of truth and why it requires an eternal sponsor of ultimate intelligence....
Or you'll get another lecture about how you fail to be a true freethinker.

I know where my quatloos are going...
 

braces_for_impact

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So many times I hear from the Christian right about how the founding of America is rooted in biblical principles. I keep asking myself, are these people reading the same bible I am? There's nothing in there about justice, equal representation, democracy, or human or equal rights. There is only what you would expect from such an antique document. The divine right of kings to rule. Hello? *knock knock* is there anyone in there?

Equal rights
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

We all have the same status before God. Originally made in his image.

Only Christian men should be rulers Exodus 18:21
"Thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers."

Leviticus 25 44-46
Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever.


Exodus 21 20-21
And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

I could find literally dozens of verses which contradict yours. I simply haven't the time. God and Jesus are KING, as Christians are always reminding us. Not representatives, not head of a parliament, an absolute ruler.

 

Underseer

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How else do you explain the existence of truth if my mechanical pencil didn't create it?
Hmmm.
You're either going to get a presentation on the nature of truth and why it requires an eternal sponsor of ultimate intelligence....
Or you'll get another lecture about how you fail to be a true freethinker.

I know where my quatloos are going...

In other words, you can't explain how the truth came to be, therefore my mechanical pencil is proven to be the source of all truth in the universe.
 

dockeen

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Wow.
But, actions having consequences is true whether or not there's a deity hiding himself away somewhere. So what benefit does God give us?
Books written by unknown persons for unknown reasons? We still have those, we just don't all believe they're worth a shit.
God hasn't done anything to show me that any of the characterizations, or candidate fictions are anything but human invention. Just like the various books and stories of gods fucking with humans, leading humans, creating and killing humans... Feh.

I have to agree with you about the gods you are talking about, those are gods made up in the past, and because of lack knowledge and understanding and could only imagine gods that were like humans and thought like humans and acted like humans. We with our present understanding find that distasteful and so we should.

I do not like using the term God, because it is now associated with acts that are no better than humans and it is done in the name of god.

I would say religion although it may have some good points has been the greatest culprit in dishonouring this god. For it has been used to control the masses, and committed atrocities in the name of god to gain power and control, and more.

The trouble with this is that atheist are basing their decision on what god is based on what so called religion and what religious people think what god is based on past erroneous teachings and then added to more false teachings without question. In fact they were to accept it otherwise they would be displeasing to god.

This is why I say we have to go back to the beginning of any thought, tradition, teaching, or belief and see if it started on a correct foundation if not lets go back to the drawing board.

This is why I will rarely quote so called authorities and only when they have the facts to the best of their knowledge. Free thinkers should be able to reason on the evidence around them and the provable evidence others have discovered, and cut out their personal opinions and theories that do not stand up to scrutiny.

With the knowledge and understanding we have today should get us closer to the truth of the matter, knowledge and understanding is ongoing, we have to move with it or we will end up with falsehood only to be undermined in the future, so lets get it correct now.

I would have thought that is what TALK FREETHOUGHT came into existence for to iron out fact from fiction, so let’s go for it and make this a site with real clout.

I will not use the word god unless it fits the subject and context, therefore the term I will use for this entity is THE UNIVERSAL INTELLIGENCE because the fact is that every thing that we understand as reality smacks of purpose, design and an extremely high intelligence.

So would it be correct to assume that you would take it as axiomatic that if a system has a certain degree of...."complexity", and it works, it must have been designed.
 

Underseer

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Wow.
But, actions having consequences is true whether or not there's a deity hiding himself away somewhere. So what benefit does God give us?
Books written by unknown persons for unknown reasons? We still have those, we just don't all believe they're worth a shit.
God hasn't done anything to show me that any of the characterizations, or candidate fictions are anything but human invention. Just like the various books and stories of gods fucking with humans, leading humans, creating and killing humans... Feh.

I have to agree with you about the gods you are talking about, those are gods made up in the past, and because of lack knowledge and understanding and could only imagine gods that were like humans and thought like humans and acted like humans. We with our present understanding find that distasteful and so we should.

I do not like using the term God, because it is now associated with acts that are no better than humans and it is done in the name of god.

I would say religion although it may have some good points has been the greatest culprit in dishonouring this god. For it has been used to control the masses, and committed atrocities in the name of god to gain power and control, and more.

The trouble with this is that atheist are basing their decision on what god is based on what so called religion and what religious people think what god is based on past erroneous teachings and then added to more false teachings without question. In fact they were to accept it otherwise they would be displeasing to god.

This is why I say we have to go back to the beginning of any thought, tradition, teaching, or belief and see if it started on a correct foundation if not lets go back to the drawing board.

This is why I will rarely quote so called authorities and only when they have the facts to the best of their knowledge. Free thinkers should be able to reason on the evidence around them and the provable evidence others have discovered, and cut out their personal opinions and theories that do not stand up to scrutiny.

With the knowledge and understanding we have today should get us closer to the truth of the matter, knowledge and understanding is ongoing, we have to move with it or we will end up with falsehood only to be undermined in the future, so lets get it correct now.

I would have thought that is what TALK FREETHOUGHT came into existence for to iron out fact from fiction, so let’s go for it and make this a site with real clout.

I will not use the word god unless it fits the subject and context, therefore the term I will use for this entity is THE UNIVERSAL INTELLIGENCE because the fact is that every thing that we understand as reality smacks of purpose, design and an extremely high intelligence.

So would it be correct to assume that you would take it as axiomatic that if a system has a certain degree of...."complexity", and it works, it must have been designed.

Correct.

That's how we know science is lying when it claims that snowflakes are created by natural forces. Anyone who respects logic understands that each individual snowflake is a separate act of creation by a Designer using magic, because that is the only possible explanation for snowflakes that I can understand.
 

Keith&Co.

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So would it be correct to assume that you would take it as axiomatic that if a system has a certain degree of...."complexity", and it works, it must have been designed.
Gosh, i hope so. I've always wanted to know a good way to measure complexity.
It's in degrees?
 

Mageth

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I will not use the word god unless it fits the subject and context, therefore the term I will use for this entity is THE UNIVERSAL INTELLIGENCE because the fact is that every thing that we understand as reality smacks of purpose, design and an extremely high intelligence.

Umm...I fail to see any significant difference in your "THE UNIVERSAL INTELLIGENCE" entity and the average, run-of-the-mill god notion that gets asserted around here all the time.
 

Keith&Co.

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Of course, TS has a different take on explanations:
TS Blog entry said:
When explanations are difficult, complex, tedious, very long, that person has not got to the full truth of the matter and or does not fully understand the subject himself, otherwise he would be able to put it into simple terms.
So, complexity is a sign of intelligence if we see it in reality, but if we hear it in an explanation, that's a sign of ignorance.

There's a webcomic character, Kin, who tried to explain why another character should not pee on a magical artifact. Being an intellectual, her first attempt was something Spock might have tried, explaining the magical potential and that the stream of fluid would act as a vector to convey this potential to his physical form, even traveling upstream against the urine... Then she noted that his eyes were glazing over.
her second attempt, "Penis go boom," did transfer the POINT she was trying to get across, though detail was lost in the stepping-down.

The point to note, here, is that her complex explanation was perfectly accurate, and not a sign of her own ignorance. The 'simpler' explanation was required, not by her lack of understanding, but by the idiot's inability to grasp complicated explanations.

I would suggest that both TS' stands on complexity are personal issues, not dependable axioms about how the universe, or explanations, work.
 

DiamondH

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So would it be correct to assume that you would take it as axiomatic that if a system has a certain degree of...."complexity", and it works, it must have been designed.
Gosh, i hope so. I've always wanted to know a good way to measure complexity.
It's in degrees?

I think Demskis are the preferred term, but that's too big for everyday use so most measurements are in millidempskis.
 
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