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God, Moral Evil, and Man's Nature

. A good God would by definition, wish to eliminate moral evil.
Two thoughts about the quote above
1. What exactly do you mean by eliminate? It you mean eradicate then I will have to disagree. A good God could bind evil i.e. put evil within constraints that it cannot past. That would show his mastery over evil.
2. God is not bound to 'eliminate' evil (your phrase not mine) immediately. He could do it at any time of his choosing and still be morally good. He must deal with evil eventually.

Of course you will claim that he should deal with it immediately but I would like to know your reasoning (apart the the old 'if i were God .......')
 
Again, my OP was aimed squarely at those religions that claim God is good via revelation. God is supposedly, morally good.
By morally good, do you mean self serving or do you mean has a sense of humor and understands the pitfalls of existence and how to lead people through them?
 
The choices are bogus. Man can be created to choose whether to do the right thing or not. Man can choose evil, good, or indifference with every single choice they make. Very few people can be said to be good or evil all the time. And evil is a loaded term. Sometimes it is self-centered, not evil. To choose what is in your best or your friend's best or your family's best interest. Not because it would intentionally harm others.

Ultimately, the Tanakh answers the question in Genesis 50, when Joseph says ~'God makes good from the bad.' What? Hey... it was over 2500 years ago... that shit was pretty progressive at the time.
 
The choices are bogus. Man can be created to choose whether to do the right thing or not. Man can choose evil, good, or indifference with every single choice they make. Very few people can be said to be good or evil all the time. And evil is a loaded term. Sometimes it is self-centered, not evil. To choose what is in your best or your friend's best or your family's best interest. Not because it would intentionally harm others.

Ultimately, the Tanakh answers the question in Genesis 50, when Joseph says ~'God makes good from the bad.' What? Hey... it was over 2500 years ago... that shit was pretty progressive at the time.
They're not so much bogus as tainted with generations of religious mindfuckery.

Assuming there's a creator, is it's behavior apparent in what it creates? I would certainly think so.
 
The choices are bogus. Man can be created to choose whether to do the right thing or not. Man can choose evil, good, or indifference with every single choice they make. Very few people can be said to be good or evil all the time. And evil is a loaded term. Sometimes it is self-centered, not evil. To choose what is in your best or your friend's best or your family's best interest. Not because it would intentionally harm others.

Ultimately, the Tanakh answers the question in Genesis 50, when Joseph says ~'God makes good from the bad.' What? Hey... it was over 2500 years ago... that shit was pretty progressive at the time.
They're not so much bogus as tainted with generations of religious mindfuckery.
More to my point is people in aggregate aren't A B or C. And certainly most people aren't just A B or C either.
Assuming there's a creator, is it's behavior apparent in what it creates? I would certainly think so.
It is a legit question. What is immorality a thing to start with? A god(s) puts humans on this barely hospitable planet and then gets angry when people don't do the things god allegedly wants them to do. Ultimately the best answer theists can come up with is 'we are being tested', which seems stupid. But then again, religion is just a theory anyway.
 
. A good God would by definition, wish to eliminate moral evil.
Two thoughts about the quote above
1. What exactly do you mean by eliminate? It you mean eradicate then I will have to disagree. A good God could bind evil i.e. put evil within constraints that it cannot past. That would show his mastery over evil.
2. God is not bound to 'eliminate' evil (your phrase not mine) immediately. He could do it at any time of his choosing and still be morally good. He must deal with evil eventually.

Of course you will claim that he should deal with it immediately but I would like to know your reasoning (apart the the old 'if i were God .......')

Avoid creating evil, or allowing moral evil to exist in the first place. Give man a god-like good moral nature and god-like free will to freely only do moral good. Eliminate original sin by fiat from the beginning. Not allow Satan to go to Earth and such prophylactic measures. Why doesn't the God of the Bibble or Quran act in this fashion? Other than being a poorly thought out set of myths.
 
The choices are bogus. Man can be created to choose whether to do the right thing or not. Man can choose evil, good, or indifference with every single choice they make. Very few people can be said to be good or evil all the time. And evil is a loaded term. Sometimes it is self-centered, not evil. To choose what is in your best or your friend's best or your family's best interest. Not because it would intentionally harm others.

Ultimately, the Tanakh answers the question in Genesis 50, when Joseph says ~'God makes good from the bad.' What? Hey... it was over 2500 years ago... that shit was pretty progressive at the time.
They're not so much bogus as tainted with generations of religious mindfuckery.

Assuming there's a creator, is it's behavior apparent in what it creates? I would certainly think so.

Both Quran and Bible denies we have free will at all. God from the beginning decides who will be elect and who non-elect. Some God the potter creates as good pots, some as bad. And so on. God hardens the hearts of the Jews to not believe in Jesus as messiah. Romans 11. Why not make them all believe in Jesus if free will is of little importance to God? Or all men for that matter? Neither Bible nor Quran make any sense at all.Martin Luther, in his book "The Bondage of the Will" goes exhaustively throught the Bible to demonstrate that free will is impossible if the Bible is true. So its not like all of this has not been noticed before. Luther in the end throws logic and reason out the window. God is incomprehensible. Which does not solve the issue. Job just browbeats and billies us, its not an answer either.
 
Avoid creating evil, or allowing moral evil to exist in the first place. Give man a god-like good moral nature and god-like free will to freely only do moral good. Eliminate original sin by fiat from the beginning. Not allow Satan to go to Earth and such prophylactic measures. Why doesn't the God of the Bibble or Quran act in this fashion?
Because it's hard to resist being evil to unrepentant assholes. ;)
 
You keep equivocating.

As I said at the beginning of this useless conversation, if the concept of an omnipotent being is accepted(even for the sake of argument) it is not sensible to apply human limitations to such a thing. You can only define evil in human terms and there is no way to escape making a subjective definition.

I consider myself to be a moral person, within reason, but there are few things I enjoy more than a good steak. Imagine a cow who happened to have enough self awareness to realize, not only had he been castrated at a young age, but it was done so when he was killed and all his muscles flayed from his body, the resulting cuts of meat would be better pleasing in my mouth. That cow would certainly find me quite evil.

Of course, by most human standards, I've done nothing wrong. A few vegans will empathize with the cow, but I'm above all that.

I don't claim the universe is without logic or reason. I point out, logic and reason are human constructs, just as good and evil. We have created these concepts to explain the world we live in and to which we are confined. If we are going to construct models of God, those constraints do not apply, unless we are searching for a foregone conclusion.

If that's the case, simply use your human mind to declare that a bad God cannot exist, and since evil is loose in the world, there is no God. Don't worry about defining bad and evil. Your argument boils down to a simple statement, "Since God didn't do things in a way to please me, there is no God." This is a totally human sentiment.

Again, my OP was aimed squarely at those religions that claim God is good via revelation. God is supposedly, morally good. And these books, especially the Bible list numerous sub-goodness and gives numerous examples of what this supposed God tells us these sub-goodnesses mean. You seem to not take that into account.

I do not really apply the fact the self same revelations paint God as a pretty bad character, rather, I aim at a higher logical level to demonstrate the logical failings of their self describe good god of revelation.

And if God is divorced from logic and can make the Universe any way God wants to by fiat, that just makes the logical disconnect even more serious. You seem to be saying a God theoretically divorced from "human logic", a super-omnipotent God not limited by logic escapes the problem of revelation supposedly spelling out in no uncertain terms what God means when it comes to being good.

Supposedly, these "constructs" are God's constructs, not ours. Every sura of the Quran starts with "Allah, the merciful and compassionate", for example.

As I started in the OP, God creates our nature. He has three logical choices. Its a matter of why a supposedly good God creates us prone to failure. When logically he could avoid that. Its not a matter of free will. Any thing God chooses constrains our free will. You seem to think that saying God is not bound by "human logic" makes the problem go away, it doesn't It merely strips God of any excuse not to act logically in this matter for the sake of moral goodness.

It tuns the supposed revelations into immense lies. And that fails on that account. Do sub-goodness like mercy and compassion all of sudden have no real meaning? This is a bizarre nihilism, extreme sort of divine command theory gone wild.

Logic is merely a human construct? I don't believe that. Try being illogical in a Universe where being so will get you killed. Look both ways before crossing the road.

Revelations are immense lies? Whodathunkit?

Am I evil for cutting off a cow's balls, just so he will taste better?
 
Revelations are immense lies? Whodathunkit?

Am I evil for cutting off a cow's balls, just so he will taste better?

Well, you'd be less evil if you fed them weed mixed in with their feed. Weed n' feed, the feel good formula for happy cows that don't mind being food, because they lack responsibility and feel fucking awesome until they're dinner.
 
Revelations are immense lies? Whodathunkit?

Am I evil for cutting off a cow's balls, just so he will taste better?

Well, you'd be less evil if you fed them weed mixed in with their feed. Weed n' feed, the feel good formula for happy cows that don't mind being food, because they lack responsibility and feel fucking awesome until they're dinner.

Sometimes I wonder if they stopped teaching the Allegory of the Cave in schools, these days.
 
Again, my OP was aimed squarely at those religions that claim God is good via revelation. God is supposedly, morally good. And these books, especially the Bible list numerous sub-goodness and gives numerous examples of what this supposed God tells us these sub-goodnesses mean. You seem to not take that into account.

I do not really apply the fact the self same revelations paint God as a pretty bad character, rather, I aim at a higher logical level to demonstrate the logical failings of their self describe good god of revelation.

And if God is divorced from logic and can make the Universe any way God wants to by fiat, that just makes the logical disconnect even more serious. You seem to be saying a God theoretically divorced from "human logic", a super-omnipotent God not limited by logic escapes the problem of revelation supposedly spelling out in no uncertain terms what God means when it comes to being good.

Supposedly, these "constructs" are God's constructs, not ours. Every sura of the Quran starts with "Allah, the merciful and compassionate", for example.

As I started in the OP, God creates our nature. He has three logical choices. Its a matter of why a supposedly good God creates us prone to failure. When logically he could avoid that. Its not a matter of free will. Any thing God chooses constrains our free will. You seem to think that saying God is not bound by "human logic" makes the problem go away, it doesn't It merely strips God of any excuse not to act logically in this matter for the sake of moral goodness.

It tuns the supposed revelations into immense lies. And that fails on that account. Do sub-goodness like mercy and compassion all of sudden have no real meaning? This is a bizarre nihilism, extreme sort of divine command theory gone wild.

Logic is merely a human construct? I don't believe that. Try being illogical in a Universe where being so will get you killed. Look both ways before crossing the road.

Revelations are immense lies? Whodathunkit?

Am I evil for cutting off a cow's balls, just so he will taste better?
See? There it is. I grew up thinking a cow is a mature female of that species, and so has no balls.

Why does the creator do this to us?
 
Revelations are immense lies? Whodathunkit?

Am I evil for cutting off a cow's balls, just so he will taste better?
See? There it is. I grew up thinking a cow is a mature female of that species, and so has no balls.

Why does the creator do this to us?

I didn't want to get too technical, but most beef comes from steers, which is a male cow that has been emasculated.
 
...
But there is a more serious objection. If God designs and created us, he must have designed our moral nature. And God had three choices.

1. Create man evil.
2. Create man morally indifferent.
3. Create man morally good.
...
If, for the sake of the discussion, there is an omnipotent being, independent of space and time, who is capable of creating the universe we observe, why would such a being be limited to three choices?

Because these are the only logical choices possible. To posit a hypothetical other choice to avoid the possible choices is a mere rhetorical dodge. It is the equivalent of saying any problems we conceive about God do not really exist even if we cannot think of a solution, a dodgy assertion. We can turn that around, any possible assertion theologians make about atheism has an answer, even if we cannot know it..

Theologians have been somewhat divided on if God can make a contradiction true.

Using logic to force theology into such "defences" is a victory. Special pleading is never really a victory.

But "God" was not limited to just 3 choices, what about :-

4. Not create man at all.
5. Create an alternative to man.
 
According to Christian theologians, God created man. And man's nature. God then had three choices.
1. Man created with an evil nature.
2. Man created with an indifferent nature.
3. Man created with a good nature.

Why does moral evil exist. Many theologians tell us that if God were to create us with a good nature, we would lose free will. Of course the NT pretty much does not support the idea we have free will to begin with. Predestination from Romans. The idea that God in Romans 11 hardened the hearts of Jews to not believe in the messiah etc.

But there is a more serious objection. If God designs and created us, he must have designed our moral nature. And God had three choices.

1. Create man evil.
2. Create man morally indifferent.
3. Create man morally good.

But no matter our nature, God is responsible for choosing 1., 2. or 3. By choosing 2., moral indifference, we do not gain any sort of free will. We only get a moral nature prone to moral failure. Since we get no choice, all is God's choice. If God is good, then God must choose 3. a god-like moral nature and a god-like free will such as God enjoys.

This to me also calls God's supposed foundation of morality in question. If there is a perfect morality that is derived from God, it would seem God would be a perfect moral being and chose 3. Creating man a moral being as any choice God makes creates our morality. To fail to chose 3. is a moral failing.

Obviously the theologians will choose to deny 2., that as a choice it creates a great deal on immorality due to God's choice.

Theologians have talked their way out of the problem of moral evil... at least to a draw with Atheists. The problem of Natural Evil is insurmountable, though.
 
I have been of the opinion for quite some time that a God who supposedly is the very emboddiemnt of goodness and impeccable morality is hard to square with the existence of man's moral evil. Since Bible and Quran do not support man as having free will, that as an excuse is right out. Satan is a puzzle. There is no Satan warned of in the Torah with God's supposed revelations to the Israelites. Satan as an excuse is a late addition to the mythology. Why tolerate original sin if it cause moral evil? No good answers here from Christians.
 
I have been of the opinion for quite some time that a God who supposedly is the very emboddiemnt of goodness and impeccable morality is hard to square with the existence of man's moral evil. Since Bible and Quran do not support man as having free will, that as an excuse is right out. Satan is a puzzle. There is no Satan warned of in the Torah with God's supposed revelations to the Israelites. Satan as an excuse is a late addition to the mythology. Why tolerate original sin if it cause moral evil? No good answers here from Christians.

Suppose you were a omniscient omnipotent entity, independent of space and time. You are able to conjure matter from nothing, straight from your consciousness.

How would you have handled this creation of Earth thing?
 
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