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Godwin Says...

Why would that matter?

I am not against immigration per se, but we need a more sane immigration policy, starting with enforcement against illegal immigration.

96% of “illegal immigration” is the heinous crime of not filling out paperwork (and those who assist people who didn’t fill out paperwork). What we’re seeing now is identical to you having your children taken away from you because you were driving without a license.

This makes no sense.

It's not like there's some piece of paperwork they could fill out in order to immigrate legally.

Yes, actually, that's precisely like what there is: Immigrant Visa Process. Unless you're talking about after the fact, but then that wasn't the point, was it? You're smart enough to have figured that out on your own, right?

As to the deliberately Byzantine paperwork they do have to fill out before the fact (and why they don't just "get in line" instead of running the border), there is the sponsorship form (either a form I - 130 for "U.S. citizens and lawful permanent resident sponsors residing in the United States," which they have to fill out or form I -140, which an existing US employer fills out) and then once you've been properly sponsored (and received notification of proper sponsorship), then applicants must fill out the National Visa Center (NVC) Processing form and choose an agent by filling out form DS-261. And don't forget to pay your NVC processing fees! After submitting your payment online, please allow up to 1 week for NVC to process your fee payments before continuing to the next step. You will not be able to access Form DS-260 until NVC has processed your payments.

After about three weeks (but often much longer) for the NVC to process your DS-261, then you move on to filling out form DS-260 and you then have to collect a whole bunch of identity/financial documents and then please allow up to six-weeks for NVC to review your forms and documents once we receive both the petitioner’s financial documents and the applicant’s civil documents. You must also have paid all required fees and submitted your visa application online. We will not review your file until we have received all of the above items. At that time, we will let you know if there are additional items required or if visa pre-processing is complete.

And what kind of hell does that look like? Well, here are a few selections from the FAQ:

If it has been less than two (2) months since you submitted documents to NVC:

You don’t need to take any action at this time. We are still reviewing your documents.

Please allow up to two (2) months for NVC to review your forms and documents once we receive both the financial documents from the petitioner and the applicant’s civil documents. You must also have paid the required fees and submitted a DS-260 Immigrant Visa Application online. We will not review your file until we have received all of the above requested items. At that time, we will let you know if there are additional items required or if visa pre-processing is complete.

If it has been more than two (2) months since you submitted documents to NVC, and you have not received any communications from NVC:

Action required: Keep in mind that NVC will not review your case file until you have paid your fees, submitted your Form DS-260, and submitted both financial and civil documents. If you are missing any of those items, please submit those now using these online instructions.

Action required: If you have submitted all of the required documents, forms, and fees and still have not heard from NVC, please give us a call at 1-603-334-0700 or send an email using our online inquiry form. Our Customer Service Representatives can confirm whether NVC received your documents and update you on the status of your case.

If you received a “checklist letter” from NVC asking you to re-submit some of your documents, that means NVC received the documents you sent but something is missing or incorrect. Your case is on hold until you submit the missing or corrected documents:

Action required: The checklist letter you received contains a list of missing or incorrect information that you must fix. After you gather the missing or corrected items, please follow the online instructions to submit them to NVC. For information on the types of documents that are required, please visit our online Civil Documents information and Financial Documents information.

After we receive and review the missing items, we will let you know the status of your case.

If you do not understand the checklist you received, please contact us by phone at 1-603-334-0700 or send us a question using our online inquiry form.

If you received a letter from NVC saying that your case is documentarily qualified and that you are waiting for a visa interview appointment:

You don’t need to take any action at this time. NVC schedules appointments one month in advance. The U.S. Embassy tells us what dates they are holding interviews, and NVC fills these appointments with cases in the order they become documentarily qualified. Most appointments are set within three months of NVC’s receipt of all requested documentation. However, we cannot guarantee or predict when you will receive an appointment.

If you are applying in a numerically limited (preference) visa category, keep in mind that before you can receive an appointment, your priority date must also be “current.” This can delay receipt of an appointment. You can track your priority date using the online Visa Bulletin.

When an appointment is available, we will notify the applicant, petitioner and your attorney (if applicable). You can prepare for your interview by reading about the embassy’s interview requirements online at nvc.state.gov/interview. Thank you for your patience.

If you received an appointment letter from NVC with the date and time of your immigrant visa interview at a U.S. Embassy or Consulate overseas:

Action required: Carefully read the interview letter and visit our online interview preparation instructions. On that page, you must read the information specific to the embassy where your interview will occur. To do that, select the city where you will be interviewing from the drop-down box. You will then see instructions on how to schedule a required medical exam and other tasks you must complete prior to your interview.

NVC will forward your case file and all of the documents you submitted to NVC to the U.S. Embassy or Consulate. If you have any questions about your interview, please contact the Consular Section at that embassy or consulate.

So weeks turn into months and here's a fun little disclaimer at the end:

If there is no activity on your case for one (1) year, your case will enter termination. If your case is terminated, you will have to restart the process and repay fees.

And, of course, there's this (emphasis mine):

The United States has a cap for how many people can apply for a visa from each country. There are three factors that determine who gets approved: what category an individual falls under, how many others are in that category, and when an individual applies. Certain types of people have to wait decades to apply for an immigrant visa, while others take a much shorter amount of time. A U.S. permanent resident’s unmarried son or daughter, who is 21 years old or older, will have to wait roughly 21 years to file an application for an immigrant visa if they’re from Mexico, according to the State Department’s visa bulletin. The delay is a result of too much demand.

“People have this mental image of a line, [and] it’s coming from somewhere—it’s coming from a kernel of truth, and the kernel of truth is in that visa bulletin,” McKinney said. “It’s the general line for everyone except the countries that have used all of their visas—and then, those lines are even worse.”

For those already in the United States on a non-immigrant visa—for example, as a student or employee—they can adjust their status to become lawful permanent residents. But that process, too, can take several years and is only available to some people.

Judge Paul Schmidt, who was appointed in 2003 by Attorney General John Ashcroft and primarily served in the Arlington Immigration Court in northern Virginia before retiring, presided over these types of cases. “The basic requirement is that you have to be inspected at the border and admitted or paroled into the United States, and you have to be maintaining a legal status at the time you applied for adjustment of status, and you have to have not worked [without] authorization prior to filing for adjustment of status,” Schmidt said.

Now understand that you're talking primarily about under-educated laborers facing all of that bureaucratic nightmare, whose families are literally starving to death.

So what's the choice? Play the bureaucratic lottery and hope that a year/five/ten years later you're granted a visa or run the border tonight and be putting food in your children's stomachs by the end of the week. And not steak and potatoes; rice and beans.

There simply is no significant negative impact to the vast majority--almost entirety--of undocumented immigrants and numerous benefits (as has already been pointed out by myself and others). But the "crime" that we're talking about for the overwhelming majority of people is that they didn't fill out paperwork. That's it. That's what "undocumented" means and all of the literalists who keep screaming "They're criminals" in a desperate attempt to paint them as violent criminals (MS-13!!!!!MS-FREAKING-13!!!!!!!) can all go fuck themselves.

Their "crime" is identical to you not ever taking a driver's test. And not the actual driving test, just the written exam. And for that they're having their children forcibly removed and imprisoned.

Well, not any more, of course. Trump finally agreed with all of us and order it stopped.
 
Trump's executive order to rescind his own policy is the height of irony. It totally contradicts his earlier argument that the Flores Settlement was forcing him to separate children from asylum-seeking parents. Now he is suddenly arguing that he has the authority to just reverse the policy in spite of the Flores settlement. When did he discover this? Meanwhile, his supporters are just now learning that Big Brother has changed the party line. They are now required to sing praises of his generous and benevolent policy of stopping this terrible policy that Democrats forced on him, and he has the legal authority to do it.

He could, of course, just go to a court and try to get them to straighten out the problems with the Flores settlement, but he doesn't yet appear willing to do that. Too busy finding new pots to stir so that people don't think too much about all of the criminal investigations and scandals surrounding his administration.
 
Given that Republicans are openly defending actual Nazis waving actual Nazi flags using flimsy and fallacious argument, we can no longer avoid calling conservatives and libertarians Nazis just to protect their feelings. It's absurd to even suggest such a thing.

Maybe if they were called Nazi-ish or Nazoid instead of Nazi?
It's hard not to trigger the alt-white snowflakes and still remain truthful.
 
Aren't we just reaping what we sowed with a 100 years of imperialism in Central America?
 
So with the Exec Order, who is returning the thousands of children to their families?

Also, where are the families being held now?
 
So with the Exec Order, who is returning the thousands of children to their families?

Also, where are the families being held now?

Not so fast. The wording of the order is not so cut and dried. Mango Mussolini is trying to pull a fast one.
 
Trump is proposing to incarcerate the children along with their parents. What courts have ruled in the past is that the government cannot keep children in jail with their parents. Unless there is probable cause to think the parent a danger to society or a flight risk, they are supposed to release the family. So it is unlikely that Trump's order will go unchallenged. Even if Congress passes a law to bless the jailing of children with their parents, it will likely face a stiff challenge in the courts. The best near-term solution would be simply to cancel the whole thing and go back to the policy under the previous administration. Trump screwed this up badly, so he is looking for some way to back out of his policy without admitting that it was a screwup.
 
Trump is proposing to incarcerate the children along with their parents. What courts have ruled in the past is that the government cannot keep children in jail with their parents. Unless there is probable cause to think the parent a danger to society or a flight risk, they are supposed to release the family. So it is unlikely that Trump's order will go unchallenged. Even if Congress passes a law to bless the jailing of children with their parents, it will likely face a stiff challenge in the courts. The best near-term solution would be simply to cancel the whole thing and go back to the policy under the previous administration. Trump screwed this up badly, so he is looking for some way to back out of his policy without admitting that it was a screwup.

You seem to consider the federal judges as the ultimate arbiters of all constitutional questions, a very dangerous doctrine, indeed, and one which would place us under the despotism of an oligarchy. Our judges are as honest as other men, and not more so. They have with others the same passions for the party, for power and the privilege of the corps. Their power is the more dangerous, as they are in office for life and not responsible, as the other functionaries are, to the elective control. The Constitution has erected no such single tribunal, knowing that to whatever hands confided, with the corruptions of time and party, its members would become despots. It has more wisely made all departments co-equal and co-sovereign within themselves.

This is applicable.
 
FYI, the US ranks 191 out of 255 in terms of population density. 320 million is not that many when you have nearly 4 million square miles of land. Population levels are not the source of problems in the US.

^This.

The USA has almost exactly the same population density as the mean for the planet's land area - you have about 5% of the land, and about 5% of the people.
 
This makes no sense.

It's not like there's some piece of paperwork they could fill out in order to immigrate legally.

Yes, actually, that's precisely like what there is: Immigrant Visa Process. Unless you're talking about after the fact, but then that wasn't the point, was it? You're smart enough to have figured that out on your own, right?

What you apparently didn't figure out is that most people simply aren't eligible to apply in the first place.

As to the deliberately Byzantine paperwork they do have to fill out before the fact (and why they don't just "get in line" instead of running the border), there is the sponsorship form (either a form I - 130 for "U.S. citizens and lawful permanent resident sponsors residing in the United States," which they have to fill out or form I -140, which an existing US employer fills out) and then once you've been properly sponsored (and received notification of proper sponsorship), then applicants must fill out the National Visa Center (NVC) Processing form and choose an agent by filling out form DS-261. And don't forget to pay your NVC processing fees! After submitting your payment online, please allow up to 1 week for NVC to process your fee payments before continuing to the next step. You will not be able to access Form DS-260 until NVC has processed your payments.

You don't need lecture me with your fantasies of how the system works. My wife is an immigrant, I've seen the process at work.

You can't just sponsor anyone.
Spouse--takes several months.
Parents--takes several months.
Minor child--takes years.
Adult child--several years and up.
Sibling--a decade and up.
Anyone else--you can't even apply.

After about three weeks (but often much longer) for the NVC to process your DS-261, then you move on to filling out form DS-260 and you then have to collect a whole bunch of identity/financial documents and then please allow up to six-weeks for NVC to review your forms and documents once we receive both the petitioner’s financial documents and the applicant’s civil documents. You must also have paid all required fees and submitted your visa application online. We will not review your file until we have received all of the above items. At that time, we will let you know if there are additional items required or if visa pre-processing is complete.

Weeks? :hysterical:
 
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:confused: What you seem to have not figured out is that you and I are appear to be in agreement and that my point about paperwork/the DMV is that it is the only "crime" the vast majority of undocumented immigrants have committed and therefore what Trump had done was identical to the government forcibly caging your children, because you drove without having filled out the paperwork for a driver's license.

Iow, my point was that it's not a "crime" in any dire sense--just a "crime" of bureaucracy--and calling undocumented immigrants "criminals" is just a false equivalency ploy (a standard trick in the right wing propaganda playbook). Hence the constant redirection toward MS-13 and Rapists! and saying nonsensical shit like "they're not sending their best" (as if the Mexican government is selecting who to "send" to America).

In short, there is no justification for separating anyone's families for upwards of 96% of the cases.
 
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For an actual comparison, Dismal

How was what I posted not an "actual" comparison?

What are you some kind of shithead comparison Nazi?


Propaganda? What in there is propaganda? And what does that have to do with whether it is an "actual" comparison?

Do you understand what the words "propaganda" and "comparison" mean?

What are you, five?

At least I'm not a shithead comparison Nazi.

I got the joke dismal :hehe:
 
I got the joke as well. I just thought it was as hilarious as watching a guy get hit in the nuts with a football.
 
Well said, Loren.

I'm currently going through that process, as I'm marrying a US citizen after being here for 7 years. Byzantine is an understatement.
We got a checklist of things to do and documents to provide and forms to fill in, and it runs to 200 or more questions and much of it really has to be filled in by a lawyer to avoid rejection.
Once married, the adjustment of status process takes 4 - 5 months currently - it was guaranteed to be 3 months in the past, but the orange nazi's regime has broken everything. During that time, I'm not allowed to work except under very narrow circumstances, which is something of a career obstacle.

And it's expensive. The fees to the government run to something like $2000, but the lawyers fees are $4000 and (rapidly) up.

The time and cost is huge, and I can't imagine how people from some countries afford it. The US is basically hostile to immigrants, despite its origins, and makes it very hard to even apply.
 
Well said, Loren.

I'm currently going through that process, as I'm marrying a US citizen after being here for 7 years. Byzantine is an understatement.
We got a checklist of things to do and documents to provide and forms to fill in, and it runs to 200 or more questions and much of it really has to be filled in by a lawyer to avoid rejection.
Once married, the adjustment of status process takes 4 - 5 months currently - it was guaranteed to be 3 months in the past, but the orange nazi's regime has broken everything. During that time, I'm not allowed to work except under very narrow circumstances, which is something of a career obstacle.

And it's expensive. The fees to the government run to something like $2000, but the lawyers fees are $4000 and (rapidly) up.

The time and cost is huge, and I can't imagine how people from some countries afford it. The US is basically hostile to immigrants, despite its origins, and makes it very hard to even apply.

In my (admittedly limited) experience, the US is even hostile to visitors - I was given the third degree by immigration officers at LAX when passing through on the way from Brisbane to London. Despite my having a ticket for a flight out the next day, a confirmed and paid for reservation at the airport Hilton, and evidence that I was permanently and gainfully employed by an Australian firm in Brisbane, they were convinced that I was planning to work illegally in the US during my stay. It took me the best part of an hour to persuade them that I planned to spend a quarter of my stay drinking beer at the hotel bar, a half of the stay asleep in my hotel bed, and the remaining quarter of my stay having breakfast and then queuing to get through check-in and security for my flight to the UK, and that as a result I did not have time in my busy schedule to steal a job from a hard-working taxpayer.

And that was back in the 1990s, before 9-11 and the rise of nationalism made travel so bloody annoying. It stood out because it was such a contrast from all the other places I had passed through. Although conversations with other travelers at the time suggested that it might have been an LAX thing rather than a US thing at that time.
 
Well said, Loren.

I'm currently going through that process, as I'm marrying a US citizen after being here for 7 years. Byzantine is an understatement.
We got a checklist of things to do and documents to provide and forms to fill in, and it runs to 200 or more questions and much of it really has to be filled in by a lawyer to avoid rejection.
Once married, the adjustment of status process takes 4 - 5 months currently - it was guaranteed to be 3 months in the past, but the orange nazi's regime has broken everything. During that time, I'm not allowed to work except under very narrow circumstances, which is something of a career obstacle.

And it's expensive. The fees to the government run to something like $2000, but the lawyers fees are $4000 and (rapidly) up.

The time and cost is huge, and I can't imagine how people from some countries afford it. The US is basically hostile to immigrants, despite its origins, and makes it very hard to even apply.

We didn't involve a lawyer. Back then it wasn't necessary. When we submitted the application they gave her a letter that let her work for 6 months, but it was about a week under 2 years before they gave her a conditional green card. In theory the letter should have been renewed as needed but there was some snafu on their side that made them think she wasn't eligible. During that time they didn't renew her letter and she couldn't work. We never found out what the problem was, Tianamen Square happened and they no longer cared.

I strongly suspect the just under two years bit wasn't a coincidence, that was their last chance to drag out the clock by giving her a conditional permanent residency, giving them another two years to catch us not being a couple.

I'd love to be able to go ask that bitch at our first interview if she still thinks our marriage is fake. 30 years, two inter-state moves and two houses bought with both of our names and something like a couple dozen joint international trips.
 
Well said, Loren.

I'm currently going through that process, as I'm marrying a US citizen after being here for 7 years. Byzantine is an understatement.
We got a checklist of things to do and documents to provide and forms to fill in, and it runs to 200 or more questions and much of it really has to be filled in by a lawyer to avoid rejection.
Once married, the adjustment of status process takes 4 - 5 months currently - it was guaranteed to be 3 months in the past, but the orange nazi's regime has broken everything. During that time, I'm not allowed to work except under very narrow circumstances, which is something of a career obstacle.

And it's expensive. The fees to the government run to something like $2000, but the lawyers fees are $4000 and (rapidly) up.

The time and cost is huge, and I can't imagine how people from some countries afford it. The US is basically hostile to immigrants, despite its origins, and makes it very hard to even apply.

In my (admittedly limited) experience, the US is even hostile to visitors - I was given the third degree by immigration officers at LAX when passing through on the way from Brisbane to London. Despite my having a ticket for a flight out the next day, a confirmed and paid for reservation at the airport Hilton, and evidence that I was permanently and gainfully employed by an Australian firm in Brisbane, they were convinced that I was planning to work illegally in the US during my stay. It took me the best part of an hour to persuade them that I planned to spend a quarter of my stay drinking beer at the hotel bar, a half of the stay asleep in my hotel bed, and the remaining quarter of my stay having breakfast and then queuing to get through check-in and security for my flight to the UK, and that as a result I did not have time in my busy schedule to steal a job from a hard-working taxpayer.

And that was back in the 1990s, before 9-11 and the rise of nationalism made travel so bloody annoying. It stood out because it was such a contrast from all the other places I had passed through. Although conversations with other travelers at the time suggested that it might have been an LAX thing rather than a US thing at that time.

While I agree the immigration agents aren't exactly friendly that's worse than most people experience.

I have twice gone through the non-citizen line. Once was in Vancouver (there's a US pre-clearance facility there, you go through US immigration while still in the airport, the plane is treated as a domestic flight after that) while we were with some of her relatives (we did it that way so she could act as a translator for them.) No problems. The other time was in IIRC San Francisco--we were in the citizen line but they had a big load imbalance and directed some of us to the non-citizen line. While it didn't take all that long it was a lot more hostile than I was used to and the official didn't want to accept that we were bringing back almost nothing. He was sure I (obviously a techie as I had a laptop bag along on a personal trip) had grabbed some of the electronic deals over in China. The "deal" I had seen all through that trip was "200gb" flash drives being sold all over the place. IIRC nobody has ever made a 200gb flash drive (almost all of them are powers of two--256gb, not 200gb) and I don't have the slightest doubt they were fakes that you would only discover when your files got overwritten once you had filled whatever it's real capacity was.

The only electronics purchases I have ever made in China are still over there, along with various other stuff we store rather than haul back and forth. And total about $10.
 
Well said, Loren.

I'm currently going through that process, as I'm marrying a US citizen after being here for 7 years. Byzantine is an understatement.
We got a checklist of things to do and documents to provide and forms to fill in, and it runs to 200 or more questions and much of it really has to be filled in by a lawyer to avoid rejection.
Once married, the adjustment of status process takes 4 - 5 months currently - it was guaranteed to be 3 months in the past, but the orange nazi's regime has broken everything. During that time, I'm not allowed to work except under very narrow circumstances, which is something of a career obstacle.

And it's expensive. The fees to the government run to something like $2000, but the lawyers fees are $4000 and (rapidly) up.

The time and cost is huge, and I can't imagine how people from some countries afford it. The US is basically hostile to immigrants, despite its origins, and makes it very hard to even apply.

We didn't involve a lawyer. Back then it wasn't necessary. When we submitted the application they gave her a letter that let her work for 6 months, but it was about a week under 2 years before they gave her a conditional green card. In theory the letter should have been renewed as needed but there was some snafu on their side that made them think she wasn't eligible. During that time they didn't renew her letter and she couldn't work. We never found out what the problem was, Tianamen Square happened and they no longer cared.

I strongly suspect the just under two years bit wasn't a coincidence, that was their last chance to drag out the clock by giving her a conditional permanent residency, giving them another two years to catch us not being a couple.

I'd love to be able to go ask that bitch at our first interview if she still thinks our marriage is fake. 30 years, two inter-state moves and two houses bought with both of our names and something like a couple dozen joint international trips.

I went through a very similar experience with my now ex-wife, who was from Nayarit, Mexico.

The process was L O N G, thoroughly mired in red-tape, and embarrassing interviews.

One time we received a letter in the mail telling us that we had to arrive at date X for some such thing I don't even remember, an interview or some more paperwork, and in this letter was a warning that if we did not show up it would either greatly slow down the whole process or stop it altogether.

The date we were supposed to arrive in Phoenix for this appointment had already passed by the time we got the letter.

I may be misremembering (my memory is shot) but I believe we had to pay to get the appointment rescheduled.
 
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