Has there ever been an administration that created as much mistrust with Russia?

[marc]

The administration that sent the U2 spy plane into Russian airspace?

 

[Bronzeage]

Has there ever been as US administration that created so much mistrust with Russia as is there is today?
(apologies to all the elephants in the room)

Previous administrations have worked to create trust, or at least respect that...but....

Well, there was that time a U-2 plane went missing over the Soviet Union and NASA announced a weather research plane had reported oxygen problems. It was reported the pilot passed out and the plane wandered into Soviet territory before crashing. A U-2 with NASA insignia was displayed to the press and it was announce that all U-2 were grounded until the oxygen problem was resolved.

The Soviets then announced the pilot had survived the crash, and they had recovered the plane's cameras, with photos of Soviet military installations on the film.

What exactly would be different if the Soviets, which is to say Putin, trusted us completely? He can't be trusted, so what's the big deal if he doesn't trust us?

 

[fromderinside]

Has there ever been as US administration that created so much mistrust with Russia as is there is today?
(apologies to all the elephants in the room)

Previous administrations have worked to create trust, or at least respect that...but....

Don't you know anything. Russia is a nation built on fear of the outside. Building trust with Russia is impossible. It's they who have to come to the table of nations and show they can play cooperatively. It wasn't the US that overstepped grabbed most of Europe then quit when their failed system couldn't sustain their military or moral.

Now Russia is claiming they left Russians on the table as an excuse to re-acquire what they have lost. Not playing that game.

You want a discussion about relations with Russia start with what is the actual situation.

We're not about to sacrifice people or property on the basis of quitters regret.

That said, others have pointed out what US relations with Russia have been under Tsars, Premiers, and Presidents in Russia.

Currently Russians are feeling nostalgic for the bad old days when there were corrupt collective, corrupt bureaucrats, and a bit of grain n the table along with a daily dose of vodka. Hey, they couldn't hold it. They gave it up after thay had taken most of it from eastern Europe and moved east of the Urals while exporting russian patriots to tamp down any resentment among the foreign slaves.

No claim that thre are Russians here or there is sufficient for one to go back on giving nations release from bondage. Well that's exactly what Russia is trying to do in these new hard times to recruit and sustain support among those in Mother Russia for their current corrupt governors.

Worse than National Socialism that is.

They want to play war as a notion half the size it was when it rotted. OK. Just remember if you can't get your missiles to target you may have a problem.

Tweak the shit out of Putin's nose. Get him to bluster. Force him to send non volunteer volunteers without pay to Syria and Ukraine. See how that goes.

Russia had already given up Ukraine and Chimera so when the people there decided they didn't want a corrupt Russian puppet they threw him out.

Russia thought they had no other option but to support Syria when their client waged war on itself. They could have lead negotiations that would have resolved the problem with a multinational protectorate but they didn't. Now they're reduced to doing the fighting themselves. Let that be a lesson to them, as if they needed it, to not get into a ground war in the middle east.

We're not making relations worse, Russia is making relations worse as their failed nostalgia consumes them.

What they need is a Pope.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Ronald Raygun.


Anyway, the main problem these days is Russian leaders demonizing the US to win popular support at home. It's scapegoating, not because of what we have actually done.

 

[barbos]

Problem is not Russia, problem is US and their automatic support of every piece of shit which says "I am a democrat and I hate Russia"
Does not matter if that piece of shit is no democrat at all. Americans are terrible judges of character.
Problem is US media which is filled with complete idiots who don't know shit about subject they are talking about. They are so retarded and full of themselves that they would think that south ossetian person would be anti-russian.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Problem is not Russia, problem is US and their automatic support every piece of shit which says "I am am a democrat and I hate Russia"
Does not matter if that piece of shit is no democrat at all. Americans are terrible judges of character.
Problem is US media which is filled with complete idiots who don't know shit about subject they are talking about. They are so retarded and full of themselves that they would think that ossetian person would be anti-russian.

Well, this is why I default to Canadian foreign policy positions, they rarely take the wrong stance (other than the Puck Embargo of '73). They aren't too chummy with Russia. Therefore, Russia isn't high in the chumable category.

 

[dystopian]

So let's see...

This:

• Russia invades and effectively occupies parts of Georgia.
• Russia invades and annexes part of Ukraine.
• Russia routinely threatens its neighbours.
• Russia's prominent opposition members/intellectuals routinely meet with suspicious deaths.
• Russia embarks on ambitious military expansion programs despite a crumbling economy (never a good sign).
• etc. etc.

Somehow leads to:

• WHY IS THE US PROVOKING RUSSIA!?

 

[barbos]

Problem is not Russia, problem is US and their automatic support every piece of shit which says "I am am a democrat and I hate Russia"
Does not matter if that piece of shit is no democrat at all. Americans are terrible judges of character.
Problem is US media which is filled with complete idiots who don't know shit about subject they are talking about. They are so retarded and full of themselves that they would think that ossetian person would be anti-russian.

Well, this is why I default to Canadian foreign policy positions, they rarely take the wrong stance (other than the Puck Embargo of '73). They aren't too chummy with Russia. Therefore, Russia isn't high in the chumable category.

And US foreign policy position is very simple "Russians are aways wrong"

 

[barbos]

So let's see...

This:

• Russia invades and effectively occupies parts of Georgia.
  ...

Here is a news for you: Judge in Hague court disagrees with you.
and it is in your fucking country. Hell, even georgians don't really agree with you.

 

[barbos]

So let's see...

This:


[*]Russia invades and effectively occupies parts of Georgia.

As I explained that's a lie

[*]Russia invades and annexes part of Ukraine.

That's quite a bit more complicated than that.

[*]Russia routinely threatens its neighbours.

That's a lie

[*]Russia's prominent opposition members/intellectuals routinely meet with suspicious deaths.

Not prominent, former prominent, currently prominent are still alive.
And it's ironic because as I mentioned Hague court is currently moving to investigate deaths of actually prominent opposition leaders during Saakashvili time as president of Georgia.

[*]Russia embarks on ambitious military expansion programs despite a crumbling economy (never a good sign).

That's a lie too. Military budget was severely cut.

[*]etc. etc.

Everything you post is bullshit and lies.

 

[fromderinside]

[*]Russia embarks on ambitious military expansion programs despite a crumbling economy (never a good sign).

Everything you post is bullshit and lies.

Really?

From:China, Russia military spending surges http://www.militarytimes.com/story/...ina-russia-military-spending-surges/25770921/

.... according to data released Monday by the  Stockholm International Peace Research Institute ..... But U.S. military spending fell slightly between 2005 and 2014, by 0.4 percent, a product of tight fiscal constraints. Spending by some Western European countries and Japan also fell.Meanwhile, spending by China, which has increasingly sought to assert its dominance in Asia, surged 167 percent. The estimated $216 billion it spent in 2014 accounted for just under one half of all military spending by Asian and Pacific countries, according to SIPRI.

Military spending by the UAE and Saudi Arabia skyrocketed by 135 percent and 112 percent, respectively, a reflection in part of the worsening security situation, said SIPRI's Sam Perlo-Freeman in a statement. The two countries also represented 9 percent of all arms exports from 2010 to 2014, SIPRI reported in March.

With its backing of rebels in eastern Ukraine and other initiatives to bolster its international standing, Russia's spending rose by 97 percent. But like some Middle Eastern countries, Russia's military budget has been hit by a fall in oil prices, with a 5 percent cut planned from what was originally slated for 2015. SIPRI notes, however, that even with that cut, Russia's 2015 military budget represents "a significant increase on spending in 2014" compared with past years.

Yeah, its a military rag but it took the data released by SIPRI which is anything but a military rag.

You need to pull in your biases a bit before you go out and try to support blaming the US for Russia wanting to reunite Russians it sent to the Ukraine and Georgia while those countries were clients (hostages) of the USSR.

 

[barbos]

Everything you post is bullshit and lies.

Really?

From:China, Russia military spending surges http://www.militarytimes.com/story/...ina-russia-military-spending-surges/25770921/

.... according to data released Monday by the  Stockholm International Peace Research Institute ..... But U.S. military spending fell slightly between 2005 and 2014, by 0.4 percent, a product of tight fiscal constraints. Spending by some Western European countries and Japan also fell.Meanwhile, spending by China, which has increasingly sought to assert its dominance in Asia, surged 167 percent. The estimated $216 billion it spent in 2014 accounted for just under one half of all military spending by Asian and Pacific countries, according to SIPRI.

Military spending by the UAE and Saudi Arabia skyrocketed by 135 percent and 112 percent, respectively, a reflection in part of the worsening security situation, said SIPRI's Sam Perlo-Freeman in a statement. The two countries also represented 9 percent of all arms exports from 2010 to 2014, SIPRI reported in March.

With its backing of rebels in eastern Ukraine and other initiatives to bolster its international standing, Russia's spending rose by 97 percent. But like some Middle Eastern countries, Russia's military budget has been hit by a fall in oil prices, with a 5 percent cut planned from what was originally slated for 2015. SIPRI notes, however, that even with that cut, Russia's 2015 military budget represents "a significant increase on spending in 2014" compared with past years.

Yeah, its a military rag but it took the data released by SIPRI which is anything but a military rag.

Yes, really, budget is being cut for 2016
As for surges in 2000-2014 then economy was surging too and considering that military budget was effectively zero in 1990s.

You need to pull in your biases a bit before you go out and try to support blaming the US for Russia wanting to reunite Russians it sent to the Ukraine and Georgia while those countries were clients (hostages) of the USSR.

It is you who need to pull in your biases and educate yourself before attacking people who know more than you.

 

[fromderinside]

A budget being cut in the future is not a cut budget. As I said, budgets surged. BTW economy in Russia has been in the dumper since last half of 2014. Sanctions yano and oil is in the toilet.

From:Oil Prices: What’s Behind the Drop? Simple Economics http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/business/energy-environment/oil-prices.html

The cause is the plunging price of a barrel of oil, which has been cut roughly in half since June 2014, reaching levels last seen during the depths of the 2009 recession.

 

[Jayjay]

Guess what tends to raise oil prices? Wars in Middle East. Maybe that's Putin's goal.

The oil prices can't be in the crapper forever. All it takes is for Saudis to limit production again and the prices will go back to normal.

 

[Malintent]

Has there ever been as US administration that created so much mistrust with Russia as is there is today?
(apologies to all the elephants in the room)

Previous administrations have worked to create trust, or at least respect that...but....

All of them from 1940's to 1990's. What a ridiculous question.

"Cold War"

Look it up.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Has there ever been as US administration that created so much mistrust with Russia as is there is today?
(apologies to all the elephants in the room)

Previous administrations have worked to create trust, or at least respect that...but....

All of them from 1940's to 1990's. What a ridiculous question.

"Cold War"

Look it up.

Russians living in western countries don't like to "look up" facts. It kills their dogma.

 

[barbos]

A budget being cut in the future is not a cut budget.

Yes it is.

As I said, budgets surged.

It could not go into negative budget. So yes, technically it surged.

BTW economy in Russia has been in the dumper since last half of 2014.

Not economy, oil prices, and military budget is not something you can change on a whim, it takes years to build a ship.

Sanctions yano and oil is in the toilet.

Yes, West wants Russian economy in a toilet.

From:Oil Prices: What’s Behind the Drop? Simple Economics http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/business/energy-environment/oil-prices.html

The cause is the plunging price of a barrel of oil, which has been cut roughly in half since June 2014, reaching levels last seen during the depths of the 2009 recession.

Captain obvious, is that you?

- - - Updated - - -

Guess what tends to raise oil prices? Wars in Middle East. Maybe that's Putin's goal.

The oil prices can't be in the crapper forever. All it takes is for Saudis to limit production again and the prices will go back to normal.

By that logic Putin should have done everything to keep Iran under US sanctions.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

As I explained that's a lie

[*]Russia invades and annexes part of Ukraine.

That's quite a bit more complicated than that.

[*]Russia routinely threatens its neighbours.

That's a lie

[*]Russia's prominent opposition members/intellectuals routinely meet with suspicious deaths.

Not prominent, former prominent, currently prominent are still alive.
And it's ironic because as I mentioned Hague court is currently moving to investigate deaths of actually prominent opposition leaders during Saakashvili time as president of Georgia.

[*]Russia embarks on ambitious military expansion programs despite a crumbling economy (never a good sign).

That's a lie too. Military budget was severely cut.

[*]etc. etc.

Everything you post is bullshit and lies.

How about some sources for these claims.

 

[barbos]

How about some sources for these claims.

Can't use google?
https://www.google.ru/search?q=Hague+Saakashvili

 

[dystopian]

Here is a news for you: Judge in Hague court disagrees with you.

Where do you even get this nonsense? I'm pretty sure there's no Dutch Judge who disagrees with it; but if they do, it isn't within their purview to rule on it so who the fuck cares? You're probably getting confused with the ICC, which yes is in the Hague, but is not a Dutch court. Then again, the ICC does NOT disagree with me; and here too, it is not within the purview of the ICC to make a determination whether or not Russia is occupying parts of Georgia. In fact, the only thing the ICC is dealing with in regards to the Russian-Georgian war is an investigation into whether or not warcrimes took place during the conflict; and in this case it has NOT ruled in ANY way that supports your bizarre interpretation of reality. In fact, ICC prosecutors announced just a couple of days ago that there is significant evidence that crimes took place by both sides and that they are moving forward, and according to an earlier report from the same prosecutors, there was evidence of systematic ethnic targeting against Georgians by South-Ossetian forces.

And of course, whether or not the former Georgian president is also to be put on trial has absolutely no bearing on whether or not Russia invaded and occupied parts of the country (which really isn't up for debate); nor does it have any bearing on the causes of the war, because that's not what the court is concerning itself with (Although I have found no credible sources suggesting he's actually going to be prosecuted, just Russian propaganda outlets suggesting he "may" be prosecuted. The actual prosecutors for the ICC have made no mention of him thus far, afaik)

Hell, even georgians don't really agree with you.

Of course they agree with me. If you genuinely think that Georgians agree with the Russian narrative of events, you're insane.

As I explained that's a lie

You didn't explain shit. You just asserted; but nobody's taking your assertion serious.

That's quite a bit more complicated than that.

No, it's really not.

That's a lie

Really? Because we have it in fucking writing. There is absolutely no question whatsoever that they've threathened countries in the region. They're terrified of countries like Finland and Sweden joining NATO, and makes threats to try and coerce these countries into not doing so.

Yes, really, budget is being cut for 2016

Only because they suddenly realized that "hey, we can't actually afford the military buildup we so desperately want so we can pretend we scare the world with it."; Putin had to be told repeatedly by his people that it wasn't feasible.