Hillary Amuses All in Presser over EMAIL.

[Tom Sawyer]

the legal requirement to immediately preserve e-mails from nongovernment e-mail accounts was not made mandatory*until*nearly two years after she stepped down.

From The Washington Post

The point is that she was using a nongovernment email account for official business in the first place.

 

[ksen]

I thought there were some leftwingers who were upset about this.

Not here, of course, but other places where leftwingers have principles like the belief in transparent and open government and public officials not being blatant liars.

I'm pretty sure it's not that left wingers here aren't upset about hillary's dumb email scandal, and it should be scandalous, but that it's more fun to make fun of max and everyone knows the internet is about providing amusement more than anything.

 

[RavenSky]

From The Washington Post

The point is that she was using a nongovernment email account for official business in the first place.

Why is that "the point"?

I agree that, as a practical matter, it would be easier to simply use the State Department's email system (as Condoleeza Rice and John Kerry have done). But can you point to any law that required Hillary Clinton and/or Colin Powell to specifically use the State Department's email system?

 

[Derec]

I agree that, as a practical matter, it would be easier to simply use the State Department's email system (as Condoleeza Rice and John Kerry have done). But can you point to any law that required Hillary Clinton and/or Colin Powell to specifically use the State Department's email system?

AFAIK the regulation (not a law, hence the hillbot apologetic that it wasn't technically "illegal") came out in 2009, so it would not have applied to Powell.

 

[RavenSky]

I thought there were some leftwingers who were upset about this.

Not here, of course, but other places where leftwingers have principles like the belief in transparent and open government and public officials not being blatant liars.

I'm pretty sure it's not that left wingers here aren't upset about hillary's dumb email scandal, and it should be scandalous, but that it's more fun to make fun of max and everyone knows the internet is about providing amusement more than anything.

I'm pretty sure there was nothing scandalous going on, and I am rolling my eyes at the incessant right-wing faux-outrage.

Hillary Clinton set up a separate secure email server, and preserved all of her email. Obviously someone - even Republicans - had to have noticed that her emails at the time were not from the State Department server, so why no alarm then?

Why are the faux-outrage teams conveniently failing to note that the records law was not strengthened until almost two years AFTER she left the position, and therefore did not apply to her?

Why are the faux-outrage teams conveniently failing to note that she DID turn over her emails one month after the records law was updated (but Colin Powell did not because he could not - he had already deleted all of them)

Why are the faux-outrage teams pretending like Hillary Clinton was using a gmail account or similar unsecured system, when in fact she was using a secure server that was set up exclusively for this purpose in the days before she took over as Secretary of State?

Personally, I do prefer that they use the State Department email which is now being immediately preserved. That is much more transparent, and probably more secure. But that doesn't mean that there is any scandal in how Hillary Clinton handled her email at the time she was Secretary of State.

 

[ksen]

That's probably all true, however her performance at her presser leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[RavenSky]

I agree that, as a practical matter, it would be easier to simply use the State Department's email system (as Condoleeza Rice and John Kerry have done). But can you point to any law that required Hillary Clinton and/or Colin Powell to specifically use the State Department's email system?

AFAIK the regulation came out in 2009, so it would not have applied to Powell.

The policy, which I quoted for you above, did come out in 2009. It states "authorized automated information system". Please provide sourced documentation that the policy (1) required that email system to be the State Department's specifically, and/or (2) that the dedicated secure system Hillary Clinton was using was not authorized.

And if you can document either of those positions, you will then need to explain why none of this was an issue when she was Secretary of State.

And most importantly, you are doing what the faux-outrage teams are doing, conflating two entirely separate policies. The current panty-twist with regard to Hillary Clinton is about the updated Records Act (updated almost two years AFTER Hillary Clinton stepped down as Secretary of State), but the 1995 policy to preserve emails records most certainly did exist when Colin Powell was in office too. So if you intend to let Colin Powell of the hook as he was out of office when the 2014 policy update took effect, then you have to let Hillary Clinton off the same hook.

The 2009 secure server policy update did happen after Colin Powell but during Clinton's tenure. Unfortunately for the faux-outrage teams, that is not the policy update in question here, and further (as noted above) there hasn't been any evidence presented that she actually violated that one.

All we have is a bunch of noise from people who have only ever sought to destroy the Clinton's, and a few who reflexively support transparent government without realizing the actual facts of this issue because of all the faux-outrage noise.

- - - Updated - - -

That's probably all true, however her performance at her presser leaves a lot to be desired.

That I agree with.

 

[ZiprHead]

The point is that she was using a nongovernment email account for official business in the first place.

Why is that "the point"?

I agree that, as a practical matter, it would be easier to simply use the State Department's email system (as Condoleeza Rice and John Kerry have done). But can you point to any law that required Hillary Clinton and/or Colin Powell to specifically use the State Department's email system?

From what I understand from people on another forum who have used the .gov and .mil email systems, they are major pain-in-the-asses. Numerous password updates required, complicated password requirements, and heaven forbid you forget your password. Then you're really in a world of shit.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Why is that "the point"?

I agree that, as a practical matter, it would be easier to simply use the State Department's email system (as Condoleeza Rice and John Kerry have done). But can you point to any law that required Hillary Clinton and/or Colin Powell to specifically use the State Department's email system?

From what I understand from people on another forum who have used the .gov and .mil email systems, they are major pain-in-the-asses. Numerous password updates required, complicated password requirements, and heaven forbid you forget your password. Then you're really in a world of shit.

I imagine that the Secretary of State has someone to set up her email for her. She's not sitting at her desk on the phone with IT support, that's done by an assistant before she gets into the office, so that's not something which would have any relation to the topic.

The reason that the systems are a pain in the ass is because they're more secure than personal emails. They're also backed up and saved properly so that we have an historical account of the official business done by the Secretary of State and not Hillary Clinton approved historical account of that business. This sort of thing is important.

 

[Derec]

From what I understand from people on another forum who have used the .gov and .mil email systems, they are major pain-in-the-asses. Numerous password updates required, complicated password requirements, and heaven forbid you forget your password. Then you're really in a world of shit.

A bigger pain in the ass to have you assistant deal with IT than to set up a private mail server in your house?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I agree that, as a practical matter, it would be easier to simply use the State Department's email system (as Condoleeza Rice and John Kerry have done). But can you point to any law that required Hillary Clinton and/or Colin Powell to specifically use the State Department's email system?

AFAIK the regulation (not a law, hence the hillbot apologetic that it wasn't technically "illegal") came out in 2009, so it would not have applied to Powell.

I'm confused why it wasn't always the rule to be followed.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

From what I understand from people on another forum who have used the .gov and .mil email systems, they are major pain-in-the-asses. Numerous password updates required, complicated password requirements, and heaven forbid you forget your password. Then you're really in a world of shit.

I imagine that the Secretary of State has someone to set up her email for her. She's not sitting at her desk on the phone with IT support, that's done by an assistant before she gets into the office, so that's not something which would have any relation to the topic.

Having both dealt with Federal Government created programs and having dealt with PMIs and Sharepoint, I can only imagine how the Federal Government could make such a pain in the butt, even more of a pain in the butt. I've learned the higher the chain of Government, the worse the implementation of software.

The reason that the systems are a pain in the ass is because they're more secure than personal emails. They're also backed up and saved properly so that we have an historical account of the official business done by the Secretary of State and not Hillary Clinton approved historical account of that business. This sort of thing is important.

It is. And if there was a legitimate reason why she went private, those email servers should be housed within a Government building, she probably shouldn't even have access to it.

 

[RavenSky]

The reason that the systems are a pain in the ass is because they're more secure than personal emails. They're also backed up and saved properly so that we have an historical account of the official business done by the Secretary of State and not Hillary Clinton approved historical account of that business. This sort of thing is important.

I don't disagree in theory, but as to this specific so-called scandal, Hillary Clinton actually did more to preserve the historical account than Colin Powell did. Both of them cc'd their emails contemporaneously, but Hillary also saved and turned hers over. Colin Powell did not.

I would also point out that mandating the use of the State Department email system is no guarantee of the transparency and security you are concerned about. How do we know that Condoleeza Rice was actually avoiding using email other than her word? How do we know that John Kerry isn't using personal email for certain correspondence that will never see the light of day? We only have his word that he's not.

 

[maxparrish]

I'm pretty sure there was nothing scandalous going on, and I am rolling my eyes at the incessant right-wing faux-outrage.

Hillary Clinton set up a separate secure email server, and preserved all of her email.

No, she said she deleted half her emails, those she deemed "personal".

Obviously someone - even Republicans - had to have noticed that her emails at the time were not from the State Department server, so why no alarm then?

Good question. Why didn't Obama or his staff "notice" (or intentionally ignore) that there was not even one email sent to him/them from his Secretary of State was from an official address? It was clearly in conflict with his/their own regulations. Or are we to suppose the lack of the President's reaction is a litmus test for what is a faux controversy?

Why are the faux-outrage teams conveniently failing to note that the records law was not strengthened until almost two years AFTER she left the position, and therefore did not apply to her?

Because the did apply to her AT LEAST since 2009.

Why are the faux-outrage teams conveniently failing to note that she DID turn over her emails one month after the records law was updated (but Colin Powell did not because he could not - he had already deleted all of them)

Because she concealed records during her tenure and did willfully did not comply with Federal Code while an employee. She ONLY turned some portion of her emails years after she left employment and then ONLY BECAUSE the Benghazi and State Department pressed her to do so.

Why are the faux-outrage teams pretending like Hillary Clinton was using a gmail account or similar unsecured system, when in fact she was using a secure server that was set up exclusively for this purpose in the days before she took over as Secretary of State?

Because she was using her own "exclusive" email server for concealment, one that was not secured by the standards of the State Department.

The policy, which I quoted for you above, did come out in 2009. It states "authorized automated information system". Please provide sourced documentation that the policy (1) required that email system to be the State Department's specifically, and/or (2) that the dedicated secure system Hillary Clinton was using was not authorized.

The sources are below, if you wish the links to federal code, that will take a while to find again. In the meantime, here is law:

The federal code effective October of 2009 is more than sufficient to demonstrate that Hillary Clinton intentionally and substantially violated the law, and is subject to criminal prosecution. Here are the key federal codes effective in 2009 or before:

44 US Code Section 3101 - Records Management by Agency Heads; general duties

The head of each Federal agency shall make and preserve records containing adequate and proper documentation of the organization, functions, policies, decisions, procedures, and essential transactions of the agency and designed to furnish the information necessary to protect the legal and financial rights of the Government and of persons directly affected by the agency’s activities.

§1236.20 What are appropriate recordkeeping systems for electronic records?

...(b) Electronic recordkeeping. Recordkeeping functionality may be built into the electronic information system or records can be transferred to an electronic recordkeeping repository, such as a DoD-5015.2 STD-certified product. The following functionalities are necessary for electronic recordkeeping:

...(2) Capture records. Import records from other sources, manually enter records into the system, or link records to other systems.

...(4) Maintain records security. Prevent the unauthorized access, modification, or deletion of declared records, and ensure that appropriate audit trails are in place to track use of the records.
...
(6) Preserve records. Ensure that all records in the system are retrievable and usable for as long as needed to conduct agency business and to meet NARA-approved dispositions. Agencies must develop procedures to enable the migration of records and their associated metadata to new storage media or formats in order to avoid loss due to media decay or technology obsolescence.
...

§1236.22 What are the additional requirements for managing electronic mail records?

...

(b) Agencies that allow employees to send and receive official electronic mail messages using a system not operated by the agency must ensure that Federal records sent or received on such systems are preserved in the appropriate agency recordkeeping system.
...

(1) Agencies must not use an electronic mail system to store the recordkeeping copy of electronic mail messages identified as Federal records unless that system has all of the features specified in §1236.20(b) of this part.

(2) If the electronic mail system is not designed to be a recordkeeping system, agencies must instruct staff on how to copy Federal records from the electronic mail system to a recordkeeping system...[/I].

§1236.24 What are the additional requirements for managing unstructured electronic records?

(a) Agencies that manage unstructured electronic records electronically must ensure that the records are filed in a recordkeeping system that meets the requirements in §1236.10, except that transitory e-mail may be managed in accordance with §1236.22(c).

To Be Continued...

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

There is no indication that having her own server was in violation of the law. Deleting the emails could definitely be a problem. But the question Ravensky asked was not actually addressed.

But I'm certain once maxparrish gets his marching orders from a right-wing site as to how this was completely illegal, he'll post the quotes as ordered.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

The reason that the systems are a pain in the ass is because they're more secure than personal emails. They're also backed up and saved properly so that we have an historical account of the official business done by the Secretary of State and not Hillary Clinton approved historical account of that business. This sort of thing is important.

I don't disagree in theory, but as to this specific so-called scandal, Hillary Clinton actually did more to preserve the historical account than Colin Powell did. Both of them cc'd their emails contemporaneously, but Hillary also saved and turned hers over. Colin Powell did not.

I would also point out that mandating the use of the State Department email system is no guarantee of the transparency and security you are concerned about. How do we know that Condoleeza Rice was actually avoiding using email other than her word? How do we know that John Kerry isn't using personal email for certain correspondence that will never see the light of day? We only have his word that he's not.

Ya, that's the whole point. It's not the kind of thing that we should trust the politicians over but instead the kind of thing which should be enforced. Fifty years from now when historians are writing about the period, we want them to be able to give the most accurate account possible, not the whitewashed account that Clinton / Powell or anyone else felt would be the most politically optimal way to present it.

Additionally, if you're sitting in cabinet meetings and knowing things like how Merkel's phone is tapped and all the other espionage stuff that's going on and you choose to use a less secure form of communication in your own offical correspondence, then you're a fucking moron.

 

[maxparrish]

THEREFORE, it must be concluded that:

As the head of a Federal agency Hillary Clinton intentionally ignored her general duties of record-keeping. (Section 3101)

As head of the agency she intentionally ignored the numerous requirements for an appropriate recordkeeping system for state department records that she generated (and received), instead using her own unvetted and insufficiently secured 'home-brewed' system as the keeper of all of her State Department records. (Section 1236.20)

As head of the agency she ignored the additional requirements for managing her e-mail records, in particular by not preserving the record in the appropriate agency recordkeeping system.(1236.22 (b))

And under 18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation

(a) Whoever willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, or destroys, or attempts to do so, or, with intent to do so takes and carries away any record, proceeding, map, book, paper, document, or other thing, filed or deposited with any clerk or officer of any court of the United States, or in any public office, or with any judicial or public officer of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

(b) Whoever, having the custody of any such record, proceeding, map, book, document, paper, or other thing, willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, falsifies, or destroys the same, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both; and shall forfeit his office and be disqualified from holding any office under the United States. As used in this subsection, the term “office” does not include the office held by any person as a retired officer of the Armed Forces of the United States.

VERDICT:

Hillary Clinton willfully and unlawfully concealed, and attempted to conceal, her State Department records by intentionally using her exclusive and private email server for all her official email business, routing her government records through her private email server, and not complying with record-keeping code. She intentionally did not follow procedure to provide copies of private emails to the State Department while she was head of the agency.

Ms. Clinton's concealment and conspiracy to conceal State Department records requires her arrest and trial. Upon conviction she should spend not less than 1 year in prison, and barred from future office.

Sad but necessary.

 

[laughing dog]

THEREFORE, it must be concluded that:

As the head of a Federal agency Hillary Clinton intentionally ignored her general duties of record-keeping. (Section 3101)

As head of the agency she intentionally ignored the numerous requirements for an appropriate recordkeeping system for state department records that she generated (and received), instead using her own unvetted and insufficiently secured 'home-brewed' system as the keeper of all of her State Department records. (Section 1236.20)

As head of the agency she ignored the additional requirements for managing her e-mail records, in particular by not preserving the record in the appropriate agency recordkeeping system.(1236.22 (b))

And under 18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation

(a) Whoever willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, or destroys, or attempts to do so, or, with intent to do so takes and carries away any record, proceeding, map, book, paper, document, or other thing, filed or deposited with any clerk or officer of any court of the United States, or in any public office, or with any judicial or public officer of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

(b) Whoever, having the custody of any such record, proceeding, map, book, document, paper, or other thing, willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, falsifies, or destroys the same, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both; and shall forfeit his office and be disqualified from holding any office under the United States. As used in this subsection, the term “office” does not include the office held by any person as a retired officer of the Armed Forces of the United States.

VERDICT:

Hillary Clinton willfully and unlawfully concealed, and attempted to conceal, her State Department records by intentionally using her exclusive and private email server for all her official email business, routing her government records through her private email server, and not complying with record-keeping code. She intentionally did not follow procedure to provide copies of private emails to the State Department while she was head of the agency.

Ms. Clinton's concealment and conspiracy to conceal State Department records requires her arrest and trial. Upon conviction she should spend not less than 1 year in prison, and barred from future office.

Sad but necessary.

Okay by me.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

What I find odd is that she apparently never had a Government email. Wouldn't this have been obvious? Did she not email anyone in the Republican Party in four years?

As head of the agency she intentionally ignored the numerous requirements for an appropriate recordkeeping system for state department records that she generated (and received), instead using her own unvetted and insufficiently secured 'home-brewed' system as the keeper of all of her State Department records. (Section 1236.20)

This is unestablished.

As head of the agency she ignored the additional requirements for managing her e-mail records, in particular by not preserving the record in the appropriate agency recordkeeping system.(1236.22 (b))

May be unestablished.

And under 18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation

(a) Whoever willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, or destroys, or attempts to do so, or, with intent to do so takes and carries away any record, proceeding, map, book, paper, document, or other thing, filed or deposited with any clerk or officer of any court of the United States, or in any public office, or with any judicial or public officer of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

(b) Whoever, having the custody of any such record, proceeding, map, book, document, paper, or other thing, willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, falsifies, or destroys the same, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both; and shall forfeit his office and be disqualified from holding any office under the United States. As used in this subsection, the term “office” does not include the office held by any person as a retired officer of the Armed Forces of the United States.

Oh boy! Hillary Clinton is the first one to do this in the history of the United States... delete an email. I mean look at the entire lack of fines and arrests and imprisonments over it.

VERDICT:

Hillary Clinton willfully and unlawfully concealed, and attempted to conceal, her State Department records by intentionally using her exclusive and private email server for all her official email business, routing her government records through her private email server, and not complying with record-keeping code. She intentionally did not follow procedure to provide copies of private emails to the State Department while she was head of the agency.

Ms. Clinton's concealment and conspiracy to conceal State Department records requires her arrest and trial. Upon conviction she should spend not less than 1 year in prison, and barred from future office.

Sad but necessary.

Need a cloth?

Honestly, the fact you even think you are looking at this from anything but partisan goggles is disturbing.

 

[maxparrish]

What I find odd is that she apparently never had a Government email. Wouldn't this have been obvious? Did she not email anyone in the Republican Party in four years?
This is unestablished.

As head of the agency she ignored the additional requirements for managing her e-mail records, in particular by not preserving the record in the appropriate agency recordkeeping system.(1236.22 (b))

May be unestablished.

And under 18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation

(a) Whoever willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, or destroys, or attempts to do so, or, with intent to do so takes and carries away any record, proceeding, map, book, paper, document, or other thing, filed or deposited with any clerk or officer of any court of the United States, or in any public office, or with any judicial or public officer of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

(b) Whoever, having the custody of any such record, proceeding, map, book, document, paper, or other thing, willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, falsifies, or destroys the same, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both; and shall forfeit his office and be disqualified from holding any office under the United States. As used in this subsection, the term “office” does not include the office held by any person as a retired officer of the Armed Forces of the United States.

Oh boy! Hillary Clinton is the first one to do this in the history of the United States... delete an email. I mean look at the entire lack of fines and arrests and imprisonments over it.

VERDICT:

Hillary Clinton willfully and unlawfully concealed, and attempted to conceal, her State Department records by intentionally using her exclusive and private email server for all her official email business, routing her government records through her private email server, and not complying with record-keeping code. She intentionally did not follow procedure to provide copies of private emails to the State Department while she was head of the agency.

Ms. Clinton's concealment and conspiracy to conceal State Department records requires her arrest and trial. Upon conviction she should spend not less than 1 year in prison, and barred from future office.

Sad but necessary.

Need a cloth?

Honestly, the fact you even think you are looking at this from anything but partisan goggles is disturbing.

Hey, its not like I want to see Hillary go to jail.

But given the bar set by Fitzgerald and many other federal prosecutors, its more than appropriate. She can always call Scooter Libby for advice on what job she would like to do in prison.