How do we coexist with the 42.7%?

[marc]

What is needed is an effective way to fight propaganda. Difficult to do when you have to balance it out with free speech, and the potential for any law to be abused to stifle actual news. But if it could be done, then we could work on the deprogramming of the republican cult.

IMO this is incredibly dangerous thinking endemic to the "not republican" political body in the US (i say "not publican" because calling most of what's in the US a political "left" is a fucking sad joke) - to act like these are ditto-headed bots who have been duped into behaving this way is short sighted and narrow minded.

you can't 'fight propaganda' with people who just earnestly believe the stupidity that they're buying into. one the core realities of humans is that they stridently ignore facts that don't fit the narrative of what they piggishly want to believe about the world.
fighting propaganda would just be farting in the wind, because you can educate the shit out of these plebes all you want but it won't make any difference because they will ignore anything you teach them, and there is not one single fact in the world that can compete in their minds with 'jesus'.

Well of course there is a core of people that can never be reached by facts. But there is also a portion that have bought into the bullshit because that is all they know. Then there are people in the middle who don't necessarily believe any of the lies, but the propaganda muddies things enough so those people can't tell what is true, so don't do anything. Or do you think things would be exactly the same if there was no FOX news, Rush, OAN, and the rest of 'conservative' media?

Of course vote the assholes out. I'm saying once rational people are back in power what things they should do to keep this shit from happening again.

 

[Deepak]

What is needed is an effective way to fight propaganda. Difficult to do when you have to balance it out with free speech, and the potential for any law to be abused to stifle actual news. But if it could be done, then we could work on the deprogramming of the republican cult.

IMO this is incredibly dangerous thinking endemic to the "not republican" political body in the US (i say "not publican" because calling most of what's in the US a political "left" is a fucking sad joke) - to act like these are ditto-headed bots who have been duped into behaving this way is short sighted and narrow minded.

you can't 'fight propaganda' with people who just earnestly believe the stupidity that they're buying into. one the core realities of humans is that they stridently ignore facts that don't fit the narrative of what they piggishly want to believe about the world.
fighting propaganda would just be farting in the wind, because you can educate the shit out of these plebes all you want but it won't make any difference because they will ignore anything you teach them, and there is not one single fact in the world that can compete in their minds with 'jesus'.

I'm not entirely sure this is true. There are different classes of propaganda and different intended audiences, and indeed desired effects.

I've talked to people who aren't in the hydrochloroquine-susceptible crowd that who've made statements like 'Warren is too liberal' where if you look at the issues in detail they at least move away from it being impossible.

A multi-pronged approach is required. The most meaningful gains will be, like Jimmy suggested, through issues, issues, issues. The more tangible it is for people the more likely they are to get through the bullshit. Even the people who don't want government hands on their healthcare will vote to keep their Medicare. The more abstract things become the more space there is for bullshit like 'Rs are better for the economy' or 'Rs are better for defense'. The other group this helps with are the people who are on autopilot, or think that the voting doesn't matter. Concrete ideas resonate with everyone.

Then there's the medium term matters. Specifically, R voters tend to have more long term vision for things like influencing courts, and a clear direct line between not voting and injustices - both from the perspective of criminal law, as well as the influence on the country's regulatory framework and accountability for bad actors in business. Hammer on the wage stagnation strategy, and what that's meant for workers.

Once they gain ground here then addressing the more abstract ideas becomes a reality. Think tanks influencing public opinion on the abstract stuff, having the political power to address structural issues like gerrymandering.

The key is that there's little ground to be made with people who are already voting.

Spending less time being trolled by bots would serve everyone better too.

 

[prideandfall]

Democrats do better when turnout is higher.

no, democrats do better when the percentage of the turnout that is voting democrat is higher.
the republicans do better when the percentage of the turnout that is voting republican is higher.
there are not more voters for democrats in the US than voters for republicans, they're about evenly split.
and there is not some huge untapped voting pool for just one side or the other, there's a large pool that would go one way or the other if you can get them to bother.

if you look at the numbers it's really obvious that the US national elections break down like this:
take the total number of people who conceivably would vote under any circumstance and 45% will vote R, 45% will vote D, and 10% will jerk off in a sock and think 'independent' or 'alternative' or whatever is viable.
but the thing is that of the 45% share of the voters each side gets, not everyone from that pool votes every year.
so, a given election is determined solely by what percentage of each side's pool bothers to vote that year.

sometimes this means excitement and 'get out the vote' for democrats and a higher percentage of their 45% of the voting public bothers to vote and they win.
sometimes this means excitement and 'get out the vote' for republicans and a higher percentage of their 45% of the voting public bothers to vote and they win.
and sometimes it's about one side or the other not being fired up and not bothering with voting, and so the other side just has a higher % of their pool bothering to vote and they win - this is how trump got elected in the first place.

Get the turnout, the Dems win.

correction: get the Dem turnout, the dems win - but that's pretty obvious on its face.
if you get out the Rs, then they win... it's not like there's way more people in the US who A. will vote and B. will vote D than there are people in the US who A. will vote and B. will vote R.

 

[cycomiko]

I think a huge problem is that a lot of people now see politics as a team sport. You're either Texas or Oklahoma, Sounders or Timbers, Yankees or Red Sox, Arsenal or Tottenham, and fuck the other side. These people think they're being politically active but all they're really doing is ingesting the hype about why their team is better than the other. "Intellectual" is considered an insult and you can't admit that maybe the other side was the better team on the day.

For the record, Hook Em Horns, Sounders til I die, Come on you Spurs, and fuck the other side.

 

[prideandfall]

Or do you think things would be exactly the same if there was no FOX news, Rush, OAN, and the rest of 'conservative' media?

i think FOX, rush, OAN, etc etc, are the result of conservative ideology, not the other way around.
the will of the redneck asshole demographic spawned conservative news media, news media did not create redneck assholes.
conservative media may have made it easier, for those inclined to do so, to have soundbites to throw out which justify their rampant stupidity, but the stupidity and the core of the political ideology which lead to where we are now predates conservative media by quite a few decades.

I'm saying once rational people are back in power what things they should do to keep this shit from happening again.

well the problem there is when rational people are in power, they cede it willingly and immediately in the interest of 'compromise' because something happened to 'the left' in the US after the carter presidency wherein the entire ideological movement collectively lost its spine and started apologizing for being liberal and taking any possible excuse to give power back to their political opponents.
i don't know why exactly the left in the US lost the will to be unapologetically progressive, but i suspect it has something to do with the fact that after vietnam all the really big shit was kind of over and done with and the fight just went out of them.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Democrats do better when turnout is higher.

no, democrats do better when the percentage of the turnout that is voting democrat is higher.
the republicans do better when the percentage of the turnout that is voting republican is higher.

Looking at this, you probably (do) have a point.

 

[Deepak]

I'm saying once rational people are back in power what things they should do to keep this shit from happening again.

well the problem there is when rational people are in power, they cede it willingly and immediately in the interest of 'compromise' because something happened to 'the left' in the US after the carter presidency wherein the entire ideological movement collectively lost its spine and started apologizing for being liberal and taking any possible excuse to give power back to their political opponents.
i don't know why exactly the left in the US lost the will to be unapologetically progressive, but i suspect it has something to do with the fact that after vietnam all the really big shit was kind of over and done with and the fight just went out of them.

I mean, Carl Schmitt wrote about this stuff. They're imagining how debate should work in a liberal society and confusing the opponents tactics as conforming to their imagination.

 

[prideandfall]

Democrats do better when turnout is higher.

no, democrats do better when the percentage of the turnout that is voting democrat is higher.
the republicans do better when the percentage of the turnout that is voting republican is higher.

Looking at this, you probably (do) have a point.

believe me, i wish it was another way - i'd love to be able to buy into the popular fantasy that conservatives are a vocal minority in the US, and by golly if we could just get everyone engaged everyone would magically be liberal and the democrats would run everything and the country would actually function as a governed first world society.

sadly, reality just doesn't bear this out. the country itself isn't as simple as a 50/50 split liberal/conservative, but the actual metrics of voting is in fact that simple.
that elections only come down to which side's fanbase is more riled up that year makes presidential elections incredibly predictable but also incredibly depressing.
i believe it was on this very forum that back in like summer of 2015 i posted that trump was absolutely going to win, because team B always wins after team A has had a run with ideologically popular president.
(bush sr being a weird exception to that, and the only exception we've had in this country since like the 1940s)

 

[zorq]

Honestly, in the chunk of the population who almost never votes, I think the Ds have a decent advantage over the Rs. I think the Rs know this too. I haven't seen an elected R look down on any voter suppression scheme. Tell the Rs you want everyone to get a ballot in the mail and they insist the sky is falling. I guarantee that if a mandatory voting bill was dropped on capitol hill that the Rs would be 100% united against it. Oh sure, they'd have their dog whistle excuses, but the real reason? Power.

 

[Axulus]

42.7% currently approve of Donald Trump (Link), despite everything this imbecile con has done. Those who approve of him at this point are beyond all hope and reason. This voting block is going to be a cancer on American society for some time to come. How do we coexist?

There are diehard Trumpers who support what he actually does. Then there are Trumpers who support what he represents even though what he does hurts them.

The second group feel left behind and marginalized by "elites" and our society. They feel they are losing ground in almost every conceivable direction. They feel they are looked down upon. And they feel everyone else who is not them is getting ahead and that much of that success is due to unfair policies. I know a few of them - I have at least one brother who fits that to a tee.

They are not bad people. And, they can be reasonable and rational. It will take time and progress that they can see that improves their lives. I'd like to think that they represent a much larger chunk of that 43%.

But why do they support Trump after all he has done? There is no rational argument to support him. Disapproving of Trump's job/performance does not mean one endorses the "elites". How does a shitty president that pays them lip service (at best) merit their support?

 

[Axulus]

I think a huge problem is that a lot of people now see politics as a team sport. You're either Texas or Oklahoma, Sounders or Timbers, Yankees or Red Sox, Arsenal or Tottenham, and fuck the other side. These people think they're being politically active but all they're really doing is ingesting the hype about why their team is better than the other. "Intellectual" is considered an insult and you can't admit that maybe the other side was the better team on the day.

For the record, Hook Em Horns, Sounders til I die, Come on you Spurs, and fuck the other side.

But if my "team" had a loud, foul mouthed asshole that did a shitty job for the team and always fouled out due to aggressive violence, I definitely would not support him, no matter how loyal I was to the team. I'd call for him to be replaced by someone better ASAP so our team can start doing better again and be respectable.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

42.7% currently approve of Donald Trump (Link), despite everything this imbecile con has done. Those who approve of him at this point are beyond all hope and reason. This voting block is going to be a cancer on American society for some time to come. How do we coexist?

There are diehard Trumpers who support what he actually does. Then there are Trumpers who support what he represents even though what he does hurts them.

The second group feel left behind and marginalized by "elites" and our society. They feel they are losing ground in almost every conceivable direction. They feel they are looked down upon. And they feel everyone else who is not them is getting ahead and that much of that success is due to unfair policies. I know a few of them - I have at least one brother who fits that to a tee.

They are not bad people. And, they can be reasonable and rational. It will take time and progress that they can see that improves their lives. I'd like to think that they represent a much larger chunk of that 43%.

But why do they support Trump after all he has done? There is no rational argument to support him. Disapproving of Trump's job/performance does not mean one endorses the "elites". How does a shitty president that pays them lip service (at best) merit their support?

30 years of right-wing propaganda breast feeding and racism.

 

[cycomiko]

I think a huge problem is that a lot of people now see politics as a team sport. You're either Texas or Oklahoma, Sounders or Timbers, Yankees or Red Sox, Arsenal or Tottenham, and fuck the other side. These people think they're being politically active but all they're really doing is ingesting the hype about why their team is better than the other. "Intellectual" is considered an insult and you can't admit that maybe the other side was the better team on the day.

For the record, Hook Em Horns, Sounders til I die, Come on you Spurs, and fuck the other side.

But if my "team" had a loud, foul mouthed asshole that did a shitty job for the team and always fouled out due to aggressive violence, I definitely would not support him, no matter how loyal I was to the team. I'd call for him to be replaced by someone better ASAP so our team can start doing better again and be respectable.

I'm of a similar mindset. I can admit when the other side is the better team. However, I think a lot of Americans these days aren't quite that honest with themselves. They're just homers who can't admit to being on the wrong team. In the last decade or so it became a sign of weakness to admit you were wrong. Some people won't leave Trump because they're scared to admit they made a mistake. Of course, there's also those who truly bought into the whole con.

 

[laughing dog]

42.7% currently approve of Donald Trump (Link), despite everything this imbecile con has done. Those who approve of him at this point are beyond all hope and reason. This voting block is going to be a cancer on American society for some time to come. How do we coexist?

There are diehard Trumpers who support what he actually does. Then there are Trumpers who support what he represents even though what he does hurts them.

The second group feel left behind and marginalized by "elites" and our society. They feel they are losing ground in almost every conceivable direction. They feel they are looked down upon. And they feel everyone else who is not them is getting ahead and that much of that success is due to unfair policies. I know a few of them - I have at least one brother who fits that to a tee.

They are not bad people. And, they can be reasonable and rational. It will take time and progress that they can see that improves their lives. I'd like to think that they represent a much larger chunk of that 43%.

But why do they support Trump after all he has done? There is no rational argument to support him.

Much of political support is emotional not rational. Trump is "their" guy because they feel he stands up for them.

Disapproving of Trump's job/performance does not mean one endorses the "elites".

It does in the bifurcated partisan world we live in today.

How does a shitty president that pays them lip service (at best) merit their support?

Because they feel he stands for them and they feel he is "their" shitty president not someone who looks down on them and who wants to help anyone but them.

 

[Deepak]

But why do they support Trump after all he has done? There is no rational argument to support him.

Much of political support is emotional not rational. Trump is "their" guy because they feel he stands up for them.

God is dead

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

But why do they support Trump after all he has done? There is no rational argument to support him.

Much of political support is emotional not rational. Trump is "their" guy because they feel he stands up for them.

They stand up for him like Jim Jones' followers did.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

What is needed is an effective way to fight propaganda. Difficult to do when you have to balance it out with free speech, and the potential for any law to be abused to stifle actual news. But if it could be done, then we could work on the deprogramming of the republican cult.

It would help considerably if the new mainstream media—aka, “FaceBook”—would change their aggregating algorithm back to the way it was before, instead of how it is now. It used to be that you’d be interacting with your friends and family and their friends and family, so it was possible to see a whole lot of political content from different sources. Now, the algorithm is designed to ONLY show you what you like so that you like it and it can then sell you shit.

Iow, it deliberately creates an echo chamber for you in order to more effectively market to you the shit that pays Zuckerberg’s salary. Few people know or understand this and they think they are in a public square, when in fact they’re in a church always singing to their choirs.

The irony is that we have an ongoing real-world example of how the conditions unique to these social media platforms are used for propaganda and why they are effective. It’s all about “strong tie” relationships online that are mirrored offline and reinforced offline by in person rallies. Everyone thinks Trump’s rallies are just to boost his ego. Not so. Without the rallies to reinforce offline what he spews online, the influence of the propaganda sharply declines.

This is why his rallies have little to nothing to do with anything policy related. It’s all just him as a figurehead doing and saying the things idiots drool over, reinforcing their hatred and bigotry and false sense of discrimination, etc. They are the oppressed, not the oppressors. They are the marginalized and the preyed upon, not the dominant and predatory. All their sins are turned into celebrations and thereby forgiven. When Trump makes fun of “retards” it’s not just him being cruel; it’s him reinforcing and giving license to their cruelty, the crowd’s cruelty.

He’s not the President. He’s the Grand Wizard. And those rallies are the reward for following his nonsense on Twitter and spreading his lies on Facebook. They’re symbiotic and all designed to give lasting, ongoing support to drive the influence constantly through social contagions.

Everything Putin learned (and we as well, only never put into practice the way Putin did) is masterfully puppeted through Trump.

It’s all literally right there happening in real time right now and why Trump is so ridiculously outraged over Twitter’s fact checker. It destroys the psychology necessary for the feedback influencing process to continue working.

 

[southernhybrid]

I live in an area where most white people support Trump, and I know two types of Trump supporters, maybe three come to think of it.

1. The affluent and business owners usually vote for Republicans. They are mostly concerned about paying lower taxes and are fearful that the Democrats will raise their taxes substantially, so they will vote for Trump, even if they think he's an asshole. My brother in law, who is a dentist, is one of these people. I've also known of Trump supporters who are doctors and nurses. The wealthy ones are like my bro in law. The others are fearful of M4A, or they are anti abortion etc.

2. Those who are totally brainwashed and/or have also always voted for Republicans. I know at least one of them personally. She has a college degree and I don't think she's stupid, but she believes all kinds of conspiracy theories that she hears on Fox, and other even crazier places. It would be fair to say that she lacks very good critical thinking skills. I think that my neighbors who fly a huge Trump flag off the back of their pickup trucks probably are in this group. I sometimes wonder what my black neighbors are thinking when they realize they are living on the same street as these people. These are middle class people who for some reason think that only Trump has their best interests. When I was still working, some of my oldest patients voted for Trump. They received propaganda that said Hillary was a criminal etc. and they believed it. Older adults tend to be easy to fall for scams. That's a well known fact, so Republicans are often able to manipulate them with lies. I'm not saying that all of us who are over 65 fall into that category, but many do.

3. Then there are literally the poorly educated. Some vote for Trump and Republicans because that's what their friends or family members tell them to do. I spoke to one like that. She voted for Kemp. I asked her why she did that and she told me that she didn't know who to vote for and her family told her to vote for the Republican. Some of these folks hate who they perceive as the liberal costal elites. They are almost all gun owners who have been convinced that the Democrats will take their guns away. I've never understood the gun fetish, but it does exist There are lots of liberals in the south who own guns, but they support reasonable gun control, like background checks, required gun safety training and such, while the Trump supporters consider these things extreme. I've known gun owners who are one issue voters. It's all about their guns. I think that explains why some support Trump.

I do agree that turnout can make the difference. I personally know some black folks who never vote because they think their votes don't count. One of my friends has told me that her two adult children have never voted. If more of these folks could be convinced that the vote is the only power they have, perhaps more would vote. My town is black majority, but too many of our black residents don't vote. I have known white people who refuse to vote as well, for the same reasons. I don't know how you can convince these people to vote. I've tried in the past without any success.

My next door neighbor was able to convince a 50 year old woman who has never voted in her life, to register to vote. She despises Trump, but has never voted She's very poor and uneducated. She's had a very hard life. There are lots of people like her who have never voted. If more could be convinced to vote, it could make a difference.

And, don't forget that while most of us who post here tend to follow politics and the news very closely, most people aren't like us. In fact, one of my former young black coworkers didn't even know that we have 3 weeks of early voting in Georgia. She missed voting in the midterms. I had helped her register to vote when Obama was running, but she's not interested in politics or the news. That's a problem when it comes to voting.

 

[ideologyhunter]

I have noticed that a lot of T's fans use the expression "That's just how he is." This indicates that they do not personally condone boorishness, abuse, cussing, and bullying, but that they otherwise approve of our emperor's policies. But it seems to me that substantial numbers of his admirers delight in his cruelty and grotesque behavior. They wanted someone to call Hillary a nasty woman to her face. They were fine with T when he implied that protesters at his rallies should be beaten so thoroughly that they'd have to be carried out on stretchers -- that, somehow, that's the good old American way.
I have a long-time friend who's a Trumpanista. We do not discuss anything political unless she brings it up. She called me a few nights ago and was carrying on about the demonstrations over George Floyd's murder -- clearly, she had Trump's viewpoint on the people in the streets ("thugs", without the saving grace of some "very fine people".) "I get so mad that I want to kill someone!" she said. "If I was younger, I think I'd drive out there in my car and..." This sentence didn't need to be finished. It's also why I never bring up politics, social issues, etc., etc. And yes, she has a better side, but a daily dose of Trump and Fox and selected social media has created an unhappy, resentful Third that helped sweep this man into office.

 

[Angry Floof]

I have noticed that a lot of T's fans use the expression "That's just how he is." This indicates that they do not personally condone boorishness, abuse, cussing, and bullying, but that they otherwise approve of our emperor's policies. But it seems to me that substantial numbers of his admirers delight in his cruelty and grotesque behavior. They wanted someone to call Hillary a nasty woman to her face. They were fine with T when he implied that protesters at his rallies should be beaten so thoroughly that they'd have to be carried out on stretchers -- that, somehow, that's the good old American way.
I have a long-time friend who's a Trumpanista. We do not discuss anything political unless she brings it up. She called me a few nights ago and was carrying on about the demonstrations over George Floyd's murder -- clearly, she had Trump's viewpoint on the people in the streets ("thugs", without the saving grace of some "very fine people".) "I get so mad that I want to kill someone!" she said. "If I was younger, I think I'd drive out there in my car and..." This sentence didn't need to be finished. It's also why I never bring up politics, social issues, etc., etc. And yes, she has a better side, but a daily dose of Trump and Fox and selected social media has created an unhappy, resentful Third that helped sweep this man into office.

It's the nature of right wing authoritarianism. This is research, not my opinion. Read the ebook linked in my sig here if you haven't already. Right wing authoritarian followers are conditioned to defer to the authority figure(s) in all things, and when the authority says a certain group is bad and must be punished, the followers are programmed to go along with it as if it were their own opinion. Independent conscience is traded for the ease and safety of having a powerful figure take on the responsibility of deciding what to think about anything. All the follower has to do is join in the attack.