How long before Europeans resent refugees?

[Jayjay]

Number of jobs is not static. More people means more consumption which means more jobs available. .

Ok then, so why not send all the immigrants out to the Thirld World to boost their economies then, or how about Greece - why don't the insects stay there and drive the Greek rennaisance?

Note, that I did rule out the illegals and non-working types. People who work and carry their own weight are clearly a net positive for society, but if they can't find jobs they end up being a burden. And in reality in many countries that's precisely what's happening.

Just spreading the butter thinner and thinner! By the way, that rep I gave you was meant to be red

Yeah, I figured that. Just give me two more reds to compensate if it bothers you.

 

[DrZoidberg]

What is the skill level of the migrants?
Do the host countries need low-skilled jobs or high-skilled jobs?
Above all how many jobs in various categories are there in the host country for which the host population cannot supply workers? Because the tide of people just keep coming and small countries simply cannot cope.

Not really a problem since we have free education in Sweden. You can just go to school until you're qualified for a job. We even pay students a salary for studying.

Historically, in the IT industry, when refugees come here they often, eventually, travel back to their home countries and set up shop over there. Their contacts with Sweden serves them well and we get outsourcing deals set up. This is often framed as a negative for the richer economy. But it isn't. It is actually beneficial for both countries. Everybody wins. A good example is India. Not that we have seen any Indian refugees. But we have seen plenty of economic Indian migrants who often settle back in India. I have a lot of experience working with such Indians.

 

[barbos]

What is the skill level of the migrants?
Do the host countries need low-skilled jobs or high-skilled jobs?
Above all how many jobs in various categories are there in the host country for which the host population cannot supply workers? Because the tide of people just keep coming and small countries simply cannot cope.

Not really a problem since we have free education in Sweden. You can just go to school until you're qualified for a job. We even pay students a salary for studying.

Someone have to pay for free education, even in Sweden.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Not really a problem since we have free education in Sweden. You can just go to school until you're qualified for a job. We even pay students a salary for studying.

Someone have to pay for free education, even in Sweden.

Yeah, but the nice thing with education is that it increases people's capacity to earn. So far that money has come back to the Swedish tax payers. It produces better employees. As the Information/computer age progresses this is only more and more evident as time goes on. So I doubt this is a system we're going to change. It's an excellent system. All of Scandinavia have the same system and we all have the same experience. There are certain things that socialism does better. Education is one example.

 

[barbos]

Someone have to pay for free education, even in Sweden.

Yeah, but the nice thing with education is that it increases people's capacity to earn.

Boy, you are so smooth, you need to run for president of Earth
Better capacity to earn does not automatically make it better. Lawyers earn a lot too, but do they make world better?

 

[ronburgundy]

I started posting this in the Planned-parenthood attack thread, because it stemmed from my observation there that we shouldn't get distracted from the more pervasive threat to far more lives posed by "moderates" who merely want to shut down planned parenthood via non criminal (though still immoral) means.

The most important problem in both Christianity and Islam is not their fueling of criminally violent extremist, but their fueling of the more pervasive and collectively destructive everyday actions of the most those who accept the core assumptions of thee inherently extremist, irrational, and authoritarian worldviews.

This is why most views voiced on the refugee issue are wrongly one-sided and simplistic. For countries like the US where everyday Christians far outnumber and already pose the same threat to modern secularism that Muslim refugees would, there is little rational basis to be worried about the refugees.
But in much less populated secular countries with a minority of true believing Christians, the influx of large numbers of true believers into small towns with populations only a few times larger than the refugees, there is a rational concern. The rational concern isn't that they are Islam in particular. Given the committed belief it would take to be a Christian coming from Syria, any Christian refugees are probably more fundamentalist than most Islamist refugees, thus a greater threat to secular values. For example, Germany has homegrown a steady progress toward secularism with religion playing less and less role in either political or everyday actions among people. A massive influx of true believers who act everyday and politically in accord with an authoritarian religion would undoubtedly set that progress back. How much, is the question. At the national level, Germany added .7% to its population overnight, but probably added closer to 5% to its population of deeply religious people with little value for secular democracy, and much higher than that in some of the specific rural villages where large pockets of refugees are being sent. Not to mention, Syrians have 3 times the birth rate of Germans.

Of course helping those in need is also a value we should protect. So its complicated, but the pretense among many left-wingers that there is nothing to be concerned about is either naive or dishonestly trying to score tolerance points, whereas the over-stated fears by christian conservatives about accepting refugees in the US are hypocritical and racist.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Yeah, but the nice thing with education is that it increases people's capacity to earn.

Boy, you are so smooth, you need to run for president of Earth
Better capacity to earn does not automatically make it better. Lawyers earn a lot too, but do they make world better?

It depends what you mean by better. The main complaint against allowing the refugees to settle in Sweden is the fact that it is expensive. If this is the dimension we're operating on then it is better.

The phenomena that lawyers are well paid is only down to the fact that we have absurdly complicated laws. If we insist on having every detail in our society regulated then we need lawyers. That's a fact. And if we live in a world where lawyers are needed we want as many as possible so their wages get pushed down so that we get cheaper lawyers. Everybody wins. Me personally, I'd rather see much simpler laws. So that we don't need lawyers to the extent we do today. But that's just me.

Added value to society is often confused with amount of money. The former is hard to measure. We have to do it via proxy. Money is one such proxy. But it isn't a particularly good one. We use it because it is easy to understand and use.

 

[iolo]

Because that's what capitalism requires of us all, you silly person - we are to hate one another to keep down wages.


Hardly a plot - a central necessity, if we are to be distracted from the way they rob us at every turn.

but how the heck are wages supposed to go UP, if there's thousands more people applying for the same job, you know as happens with mass immigration? which the left loves of course

That's the point. Are you dim? Capitalism doesn't want an increase of wages, man, and your fascism won't increase them ever. The only answer is to see all workers organised.

 

[Bar-Jesus]

Illegal workers are of course a problem, but assuming everyone follows the same rules that shouldn't be a problem.

yeah right , like that's gonna happen

seems there's another pink unicorn boy in the thread, or is it the same one.............

 

[Bar-Jesus]

Not really a problem since we have free education in Sweden. You can just go to school until you're qualified for a job. We even pay students a salary for studying.

hey what a great idea, pay all the immigrants to study then let them leave and take their free education elsewhere, winner!

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, but the nice thing with education is that it increases people's capacity to earn. .

except you've admitted that many of these people then leave and earn it elsewhere, cmon let's at least have some consistency in your Hogwart's magic system

 

[Bar-Jesus]

That's the point. Are you dim? Capitalism doesn't want an increase of wages, man, and your fascism won't increase them ever. The only answer is to see all workers organised.

But how will this mean the wages go up - millions of extra workers, where will the wealth be created? What jobs will they all do , and sell to who?

 

[DrZoidberg]

hey what a great idea, pay all the immigrants to study then let them leave and take their free education elsewhere, winner!

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, but the nice thing with education is that it increases people's capacity to earn. .

except you've admitted that many of these people then leave and earn it elsewhere, cmon let's at least have some consistency in your Hogwart's magic system

This happens. This happens a lot. But what it also leads to is that it creates foreign trading parters for Sweden. People outside Sweden who know Sweden well and are good at creating services for us. And vice versa. In the end we all win from it.

I think you need a lessen in how market economy works.

Person A has a skill. Person B has a skill. Person A is better than person B at his skill and vice versa. If they both specialise with their skill and trade the surplus to each other both are winners. That's the magic of the market. There are no losers. There are those who make relatively less than others. And we do refer to them as losers. But the point is that we're all better off trading than not. The bigger the market, the more connections/nodes, the better the efficiency the better and so on.

 

[Bar-Jesus]

And if these people who've had the 'free' Swedish education, then choose not to trade with Sweden - how does the taxpayer get reimbursed?

 

[Juma]

And if these people who've had the 'free' Swedish education, then choose not to trade with Sweden - how does the taxpayer get reimbursed?

Some losses are totalky ok. 100% is not needed.

 

[Bar-Jesus]

well if Sweden has such an abundance of wealth that it can give it away, how long till that runs out?

 

[Jokodo]

And if these people who've had the 'free' Swedish education, then choose not to trade with Sweden - how does the taxpayer get reimbursed?

And what if you buy a car and it's destroyed in an act of God the next day? That happens all the time too. Does that make buying a car always a bad idea?

 

[Jayjay]

Illegal workers are of course a problem, but assuming everyone follows the same rules that shouldn't be a problem.

yeah right , like that's gonna happen

seems there's another pink unicorn boy in the thread, or is it the same one.............

That's invisible pink unicorn boy, thank you. Anyway. I just think we should start with general principles and then see the obstacles that prevent achieving them. Of course not everyone would follow the same rules, especially if immigrants are kept on a leash facing deportation or are otherwise treated differently from natives, but the quesiton should be, how do we fix that?

 

[iolo]

That's the point. Are you dim? Capitalism doesn't want an increase of wages, man, and your fascism won't increase them ever. The only answer is to see all workers organised.

But how will this mean the wages go up - millions of extra workers, where will the wealth be created? What jobs will they all do , and sell to who?

Wages will not go up, as you know, until the unions are hugely stronger. People move, as you know, to where they can find jobs.

 

[hinduwoman]

What is the skill level of the migrants?
Do the host countries need low-skilled jobs or high-skilled jobs?
Above all how many jobs in various categories are there in the host country for which the host population cannot supply workers? Because the tide of people just keep coming and small countries simply cannot cope.

Not really a problem since we have free education in Sweden. You can just go to school until you're qualified for a job. We even pay students a salary for studying.

Historically, in the IT industry, when refugees come here they often, eventually, travel back to their home countries and set up shop over there. Their contacts with Sweden serves them well and we get outsourcing deals set up. This is often framed as a negative for the richer economy. But it isn't. It is actually beneficial for both countries. Everybody wins. A good example is India. Not that we have seen any Indian refugees. But we have seen plenty of economic Indian migrants who often settle back in India. I have a lot of experience working with such Indians.

Sure Indian economic 'refugees' contribute a lot to India and Sweden both. But then they went there with requisite skills already in place and having passed eligibility criteria demanded by the education system and job market.
Do you seriously suggest that everyone among these refugees are willing to learn or have the aptitude to learn? How much education, how many years will they need? Sure there will be success stories and many will have arrived with skills already in place, but are there any studies about those who came before who who did not manage to integrate in the local economy? If nothing else those who have come in a rush will have to learn Swedish fast.

As far as I understand from my relative who worked in Sweden yours is a skill intensive knowledge based economy; also there are very few low-wage jobs. So how can you absorb such a massive influx of unqualified people?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

As far as I understand from my relative who worked in Sweden yours is a skill intensive knowledge based economy; also there are very few low-wage jobs. So how can you absorb such a massive influx of unqualified people?

As low-skilled work becomes more automated, the robots are going to need fuel. If we design them so that they get their fuel by eating poor people, then this problem solves itself.