How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[lpetrich]

Zelensky emerges as global hero in Ukraine battle against Russia | TheHill

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky has emerged as a hero to his nation's citizens and far beyond as the former actor and comedian first elected in 2019 remains in his country at great personal risk during its bombardment by Russia.

Zelensky, who agreed on Sunday to talks at the Belarus border with Russia to end the military conflict, has been his country’s man in the capital city of Kyiv, where he has issued a series of videos urging Ukrainians to resist the invasion.

“I am here. We will not lay down any weapons. We will defend our state, because our weapons are our truth,” he said in one clip filmed outside his office in Kyiv.

“Our truth is that this is our land, our country, our children and we will protect all of this,” he added, according to a translation posted by Al-Jazeera.

“This is what I wanted to tell you. Glory to Ukraine!” he said.

noting
‘We won’t put down weapons’: Zelenskyy vows to fight on in Kyiv | Russia-Ukraine crisis News | Al Jazeera - "President urges Ukrainians not to believe in ‘fakes’ about army’s surrender as Russian troops storm towards capital"

Over 3,000 Russians arrested for protesting attack against Ukraine | TheHill

 

[marc]

Zelensky refused negotiations....
Go figure. He had such remarkable speech asking to sit down and talk and now he refuses.

Why would any sane person on Earth trust Putin in any negotiation? That's insane. He's probably the least credible person in the world today. If Putin want's people to take him seriously, back down your forces in the least. Stop killing people. Then start to talk.

Putin’s offer was to have negotiations in Belarus, one of the staging grounds for the invasion.

would anyone with an IQ above room temperature find that acceptable?

 

[Copernicus]

Zelensky refused negotiations....
Go figure. He had such remarkable speech asking to sit down and talk and now he refuses.

Why would any sane person on Earth trust Putin in any negotiation? That's insane. He's probably the least credible person in the world today. If Putin want's people to take him seriously, back down your forces in the least. Stop killing people. Then start to talk.

Putin’s offer was to have negotiations in Belarus, one of the staging grounds for the invasion.

would anyone with an IQ above room temperature find that acceptable?

Zelensky has agreed to the meeting, but at the Ukraine border with Belarus. He is pessimistic that anything can come from these talks, as the only thing Ukraine wants is for Russia to leave. Putin just wants them to surrender.

Meanwhile, the EU appears now to be willing to let Ukraine join them.

EU chief says bloc wants Ukraine as member​

 

[Jayjay]

In context, this might have been just sarcasm. But honestly, all the other batshit crazy theories like "NATO invaded Georgia and Ukraine" or "The US pays Sweden to say nasty things about Russia" are just as stupid so there's no way of knowing if you're joking.

I am not joking at all. State Department is pretty transparent and predictable.

Your claim was "US wants Finland in NATO and that's why they created this crisis."

So is your opinion that the US state department orchestrated and manipulated Putin to invade Ukraine, followed by unprecedented crippling sanctions by US, UK, EU against Russia, brought the world to a brink of a nuclear war, just so that they could get Finland to join NATO?

You're gonna keep replying with one month delay?

Yes.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Zelensky has agreed to the meeting, but at the Ukraine border with Belarus. He is pessimistic that anything can come from these talks, as the only thing Ukraine wants is for Russia to leave. Putin just wants them to surrender.

Meanwhile, the EU appears now to be willing to let Ukraine join them.

EU chief says bloc wants Ukraine as member​

Sanity at last. There is no appeasing a Pig like Putin. No one wants to fight but there's no avoiding it. Putin is losing places to take refuge. He's literally running scared which explains the insane behavior.

 

[Elixir]

Pootey should make a deal to indemnify himself and retire with a few of his billions, but there’s no mechanism by which to replace him and he isn’t playing with a full deck, so … dangerous situation.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Too bad exile to St Helena has gone out of style.

 

[ZiprHead]

Then fact checking his speech. Lots of false and misleading statements in it.

You expected something differant?

 

[Copernicus]

Pootey should make a deal to indemnify himself and retire with a few of his billions, but there’s no mechanism by which to replace him and he isn’t playing with a full deck, so … dangerous situation.

They still have a democracy on paper, at least. If Putin were to disappear, there would still be an election for a new president. Whether it would be conducted fairly is another matter. Right now, the election machinery is largely in the hands of Putin's "Unity Party".

 

[Jayjay]

Same with Cuba. I believe part of the agreement that ended the Cuban Crisis was an agreement not to invade Cuba.

In exchange for USSR taking nukes out of Cuba. So Putin offers the same deal. What's your problem?

What are you talking about? Russia hasn't offered to take nukes out of anywhere. And is in fact taking steps to move nuclear weapons to Belarus. Nobody is even threatening to invade Russia so the point is completely moot.

That's cute. You pretending you don't understand my post. Very cute.

No, I'm simply calling you out on a false analogy.

Cuban missile crisis was averted by a deal where USSR promised not to put nukes in Cuba, and US promised to not invade it, as well as withdraw nukes from Italy and Turkey. So if you're saying that Putin was offering "the same deal", it's either that Putin has offered not to invade or that he promised to withdraw nukes from somewhere. Both are patently false. He did invade, and he hasn't suggested to withdraw nukes from anywhere, and is in fact planning to deploy them in Belarus. Meanwhile, NATO has neither deployed new nuclear missiles in Ukraine or eastern NATO members, nor invaded anyone. The analogy to Cuban missile crisis fails because this time there is only one side who is invading neighboring countries and threatening with nuclear weapons: Russia.

 

[steve_bank]

Its a beutful thing to see a larger scale response, albiet slow with afew holes.

Russians are making run on banks. It is affecting Russians. No international cometitions in Russia, and several countrues say they will not compete against Russians in international competition.

The US and Europeans are send ing weapons.

In the end Putin blundered even if he takes Ukraine. Russia is becoming isolated. If he toned down NATO would have continued to decline, he invigorated NATO and European unity.

I remember watching in real time people tearing down the Berlin Wall with their hands. Putin may have sown the seeds for the end of his regime.

If it gets bad enough for the oligarchs it may be the usual Russian form of transfer of power. Putin will quietly disappear to his residence to be relaced.

Do your part, don't buy Russian vodka and caviar. Is there anything else Russian that Americans buy?

Dictators never seem able to be satisfied. Hitler could have stood pat controlling Europe. Napoleon also could have stopped and stayed in power.

 

[Elixir]

Pootey should make a deal to indemnify himself and retire with a few of his billions, but there’s no mechanism by which to replace him and he isn’t playing with a full deck, so … dangerous situation.

They still have a democracy on paper, at least. If Putin were to disappear, there would still be an election for a new president. Whether it would be conducted fairly is another matter. Right now, the election machinery is largely in the hands of Putin's "Unity Party".

Yeah, my post was badly said - there's definitely a mechanism for replacing him, and for making sure the right person "wins". A 22 year old hierarchy of oligarchs is The Sopranos on steroids. If the Don has a terrible 'accident', the members appoint a new Don. Maybe a little skirmish here and there to figure out exactly who's the new Boss, but everyone wants peace, and eventually a new Boss is "elected", the ring is kissed and it's business as usual.
Things won't improve for Russians as long as that structure remains.

 

[barbos]

Stepan Bandera - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Bandera was an antisemite and Nazi collaborator.[70] Ukrainian nationalism did not historically include antisemitism as a core aspect of its program and saw Russians as well as Poles as the chief enemy with Jews playing a secondary role.[71] Nevertheless, Ukrainian nationalism was not immune to the influence of the antisemitic climate in Eastern and Central Europe,[71] that had already become highly racialized in the late 19th century (indeed Bandera and his followers, similarly to the Nazis, advocated the selective breeding to create a "pure" Ukrainian race)[72] and had developed an elaborate anti-Jewish discourse.[73]

I would call him a nazi. Would not you?

 

[barbos]

Your claim was "US wants Finland in NATO and that's why they created this crisis."

That was not a claim, obviously. It was a remark to other person remark talking about Finland changing their NATO stance.
Having said that, US is not happy that Finland is not in NATO, there can't be no doubt about that and this is a fact.
You need to consider dynamics and context of the conversation to recover what people actually thinking. Everything is important. And if you do that you will learn way more than simply parsing their words without context.

 

[crazyfingers]

And he died over 60 years ago.

 

[Jarhyn]

Stepan Bandera - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Bandera was an antisemite and Nazi collaborator.[70] Ukrainian nationalism did not historically include antisemitism as a core aspect of its program and saw Russians as well as Poles as the chief enemy with Jews playing a secondary role.[71] Nevertheless, Ukrainian nationalism was not immune to the influence of the antisemitic climate in Eastern and Central Europe,[71] that had already become highly racialized in the late 19th century (indeed Bandera and his followers, similarly to the Nazis, advocated the selective breeding to create a "pure" Ukrainian race)[72] and had developed an elaborate anti-Jewish discourse.[73]

Pogrom is a Russian word. If you want to talk about anti-jewish discourse, it isn't really honest to not talk about all those Pogroms in Russia and pretend Russia doesn't have a problem with anti-Semitism...

Pogroms

The term “pogrom” historically refers to violent attacks on Jews by local non-Jewish populations. Learn about pogroms before, during, and after the Holocaust.

encyclopedia.ushmm.org

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Now that it has escalated into actual combat, I still think this is not an issue the US should be involved in. No, that doesn't mean I support the either side in this conflict.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

And he died over 60 years ago.

Then grab a shovel. He must die again!

 

[barbos]

Stepan Bandera - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Bandera was an antisemite and Nazi collaborator.[70] Ukrainian nationalism did not historically include antisemitism as a core aspect of its program and saw Russians as well as Poles as the chief enemy with Jews playing a secondary role.[71] Nevertheless, Ukrainian nationalism was not immune to the influence of the antisemitic climate in Eastern and Central Europe,[71] that had already become highly racialized in the late 19th century (indeed Bandera and his followers, similarly to the Nazis, advocated the selective breeding to create a "pure" Ukrainian race)[72] and had developed an elaborate anti-Jewish discourse.[73]

Pogrom is a Russian word. If you want to talk about anti-jewish discourse, it isn't really honest to not talk about all those Pogroms in Russia and pretend Russia doesn't have a problem with anti-Semitism...

Non sequitur king strikes again.
And Yes, Russia and especially USSR never had antisemitism problem, Not if you consider Ukraine independent country

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Stepan Bandera - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Bandera was an antisemite and Nazi collaborator.[70] Ukrainian nationalism did not historically include antisemitism as a core aspect of its program and saw Russians as well as Poles as the chief enemy with Jews playing a secondary role.[71] Nevertheless, Ukrainian nationalism was not immune to the influence of the antisemitic climate in Eastern and Central Europe,[71] that had already become highly racialized in the late 19th century (indeed Bandera and his followers, similarly to the Nazis, advocated the selective breeding to create a "pure" Ukrainian race)[72] and had developed an elaborate anti-Jewish discourse.[73]

Pogrom is a Russian word. If you want to talk about anti-jewish discourse, it isn't really honest to not talk about all those Pogroms in Russia and pretend Russia doesn't have a problem with anti-Semitism...

Pogroms

The term “pogrom” historically refers to violent attacks on Jews by local non-Jewish populations. Learn about pogroms before, during, and after the Holocaust.

encyclopedia.ushmm.org

Yeah, anti-Semitism and racism in Russia? No way! Be like Canada invading the US because the US plays curling, which must be stamped out.