How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[laughing dog]

It's like Putin (to be fair, a lot of people) fails to realize that with the advent of the internet most everyone above a certain cusp of age and exposure has seen enough to identify MOST bullshit, manipulation, and gaslighting.

It might have been a thing once upon a time even in Putin's lifetime where all the sneaky sneaky secrets for disrupting states worked because it was easy to play an informational hustle and communication sucked and all the tricks were new.

Now? We all in the course of our daily lives each have to contend with a veritable SEA of trolls, manipulators, and POEs.

Disagree--note how many sheeple follow His Flatulence.

There are a lot of people with basically no ability to detect such crap. People now have a lot more ability than in the past but I certainly won't agree with "most everyone".

We have a prime example of that consistent inability in this thread with the myriad of blatantly false historical claims about land grabs and the ridiculous "nazi" claims about the Ukrainian government. IMO, rational discussion with such zealots only legitimizes their ludicrous positions.

 

[Jayjay]

The rest of Ukraine can either agree to a ceasefire or continue a losing battle.

I disagree that it's a losing battle. A very expensive battle that can never be won in the sense of "return to pre-war conditions of peace", but the resistance is surprising. If it is as durable as it is (apparently) effective, they will wear down any occupying force eventually. And in Russia's case, rather quickly. It will be scorched earth or withdrawal. If Putin considers the results of both scenarios it's going to be a tough choice.

The pre-war condition wasn't peace though. It was the occupation of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions by Russian supported separatists. Not a full-on war, but constant low-level skirmishes on the border. I think a return to similar condition, except with considerably larger swaths of land under Russian control, is inevitable whether Ukraine formally agrees to a ceasefire or not.

 

[Harry Bosch]

This is simply bullshit and you know it. Nothing Ukraine did justified the invasion. Not now, and not 8 years ago when Russia took Crimea.

No, it's not bullshit. Bullshit is what you suggest.
Nuland released nazi-themed chaos in Ukraine. Russia is justified to fix it.
Way more than NATO in Yugoslavia. Problem of course is that Russia is small and alone in it.

Small and alone? What are you talking about? Your side is 10 times the size of the Ukranian army. Now it appears that Belurus is going to join the Russian death cult. Curious as to why you think about all the Russians protesting against Putin and the Ukranian invasion?

 

[barbos]

This is simply bullshit and you know it. Nothing Ukraine did justified the invasion. Not now, and not 8 years ago when Russia took Crimea.

No, it's not bullshit. Bullshit is what you suggest.
Nuland released nazi-themed chaos in Ukraine. Russia is justified to fix it.
Way more than NATO in Yugoslavia. Problem of course is that Russia is small and alone in it.

Small and alone? What are you talking about? Your side is 10 times the size of the Ukranian army. Now it appears that Belurus is going to join the Russian death cult. Curious as to why you think about all the Russians protesting against Putin and the Ukranian invasion?

It's not a war between Russia and Ukraine. It's a war between neocons which control US/Europe and Russia. And Russia is tiny compared EU+US+CA+AU+Japan+SK.
You have more than 1 billion people and even more economy.
Russia does not stand a chance

 

[Harry Bosch]

This is simply bullshit and you know it. Nothing Ukraine did justified the invasion. Not now, and not 8 years ago when Russia took Crimea.

No, it's not bullshit. Bullshit is what you suggest.
Nuland released nazi-themed chaos in Ukraine. Russia is justified to fix it.
Way more than NATO in Yugoslavia. Problem of course is that Russia is small and alone in it.

Small and alone? What are you talking about? Your side is 10 times the size of the Ukranian army. Now it appears that Belurus is going to join the Russian death cult. Curious as to why you think about all the Russians protesting against Putin and the Ukranian invasion?

It's not war between Russia and Ukraine. It's war between neocons which control US/Europe and Russia. And Russia is tiny compared EU+US+CA+AU+Japan+SK.
You have more than 1 billion people and even more economy.

Again, I'm curious about what you think about the brave Russians protesting?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

This is simply bullshit and you know it. Nothing Ukraine did justified the invasion. Not now, and not 8 years ago when Russia took Crimea.

No, it's not bullshit. Bullshit is what you suggest.
Nuland released nazi-themed chaos in Ukraine. Russia is justified to fix it.
Way more than NATO in Yugoslavia. Problem of course is that Russia is small and alone in it.

Small and alone? What are you talking about? Your side is 10 times the size of the Ukranian army. Now it appears that Belurus is going to join the Russian death cult. Curious as to why you think about all the Russians protesting against Putin and the Ukranian invasion?

Clearly Putin needs to denazify Russia as well.

 

[barbos]

Again, I'm curious about what you think about the brave Russians protesting?

I told you already when I called them idiots.

my side wants to stop the fighting

I am sure you believe that. But Nuland is not exactly on your side though.

If you want to call people who want peace "neo-cons" fine

No, not at all, I call them idiots.

I'd just like to see the fighting stopped and no more civilians being shelled.

You know, Zelensky wanted the same when he was running for president. Then he wins elections, still wants to end war in Eastern Ukraine, goes to visit "his" (not his) "troops" (not really troops) over there with that in mind, has a little unpleasant chat with "his" "troops" which explodes Russian/Ukrainian Media. Then PR department from one of these national battalions says they are leaving Eastern Ukraine front to go to Kiev to have a "talk", wink, wink with Zelensky. Whole thing was widely covered and analyzed in Ukraine and Russia.

So, war does not stop. The End.

 

[barbos]

More about AN-225 destruction. It looks like it was destroyed by "ukrainians" when they were the leaving airport. Stupid idiots. They are destroying infrastructure in Eastern Ukraine too, apparently they don't expect to ever get it back.

 

[Copernicus]

More about AN-225 destruction. It looks like it was destroyed by "ukrainians" when they were the leaving airport. Stupid idiots. They are destroying infrastructure in Eastern Ukraine too, apparently they don't expect to ever get it back.

I'm guessing the source for all of this is from Russian media that barbos monitors online (because he doesn't watch TV). Whenever the media attribute an act of destruction in Ukraine to Russian invaders, they simply take the story and say "Nope. Ukrainians did it to themselves and blamed it on Russians!" Because Russians wouldn't do that to Ukrainians. They are peace-loving invaders.

 

[Copernicus]

Having underestimated the Ukrainian military and Ukrainian strength of will to defend their homeland, having turned Russia into an international pariah and desperately threatened the world with nuclear warfare, Vladimir Putin seems to have one objective left to him. His vaunted military has failed to take a single major population center in Ukraine, and their offensive is largely stalled on the ground. However, Russia has kept a third of its forces in reserve and has yet to obliterate population centers in quite the same way it did in Chechnya or Syria. Putin desperately needs some kind of victory that he can tout to the Russian public as justifying the incredible sacrifice he is making them pay. The prize he seems to have in mind is the capital of the country: the historic city of Kiev that Russians revere as their historic homeland. For that, he needs overwhelming force once and for all to devastate the city. And he will likely kill all of the Ukrainian leadership, especially including President Zelensky, who has rallied his people and become something of an international hero. He is now sending a force to crush Kiev:

40-mile Russian convoy threatens Kyiv; shelling intensifies​

 

[DrZoidberg]

A good thing about this invasion is that it might lead to the woke pacifist environmentalist hipsters realize that they are living in a fantasy world. If you want peace in the world the west (the democratic part of the world) needs to prioritise anything that generates wealth and power. It's the only way to to keep the world from sliding into dictatorship. Or to put it another way, if we truly care about the environment and gender equality, we need to prioritise the spread and stability of democracy and democratic ideals in the world. And that requires money, power and weapons.

It's not that trans rights don't matter. It's simply a question of getting the basic right, before we start worrying about the details.

The threat of Russia and China is not trivial.

I think it's beautiful how the Ukraine invasion is bringing EU and Europe together. After decades of impotence and internal bullshit squabbling.

 

[barbos]

Munich Philharmonic - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Valery Gergiev - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Famous russian (Ossetian actually, but to you all russians are russians) music director
Valery Gergiev was fired for refusing to give "correct" opinion on this Ukraine-Russia thing called War.

These idiots did not see that coming, the guy is Ossetian, that should have given them a clue what he thinks.

This is going to get ugly if you continue to demand famous russians to align with ukrainian nazis.

 

[barbos]

hipsters realize that they are living in a fantasy world

It's actually worse, you live in worlds based on lies.

 

[barbos]

Oh boy, this is gonna sting a little, really not much. Ukraine recalls their ambassador from ..... wait for it..... wait for it..... wait for it .... Georgia!

Now I have no doubt that US will force Georgia to change their stance but aftertaste will stay for considerable time.
US would have to buy mandarins from Georgia now and dump them into Black Sea.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Having underestimated the Ukrainian military and Ukrainian strength of will to defend their homeland, having turned Russia into an international pariah and desperately threatened the world with nuclear warfare, Vladimir Putin seems to have one objective left to him. His vaunted military has failed to take a single major population center in Ukraine, and their offensive is largely stalled on the ground. However, Russia has kept a third of its forces in reserve and has yet to obliterate population centers in quite the same way it did in Chechnya or Syria. Putin desperately needs some kind of victory that he can tout to the Russian public as justifying the incredible sacrifice he is making them pay. The prize he seems to have in mind is the capital of the country: the historic city of Kiev that Russians revere as their historic homeland. For that, he needs overwhelming force once and for all to devastate the city. And he will likely kill all of the Ukrainian leadership, especially including President Zelensky, who has rallied his people and become something of an international hero. He is now sending a force to crush Kiev:

40-mile Russian convoy threatens Kyiv; shelling intensifies​

The west really needs to get more Javelins into Ukraine (and Stingers). US intel (which has been 100% accurate so far during this invasion) is predicting that if the Russians take Kyiv, that they will assassinate Zelensky and the other members of his government. Russians can get pretty uptight when someone so successfully thumbs their nose at the Nazis in the Kremlin.

 

[Jayjay]

It's a issue with Russia's own agricultural import ban. A 100% self-inflicted problem.

What are you talking about?
Russia basically banned french/italian cheese and started to make its own replica, which lets to be honest here, is exactly the same as original. Apples were banned too (to hurt Poland). Poland did not know what to do with these apples, asked their own people to eat them. Of course Belarus started to relabel EU food as their own and make good money doing it.

The point is not why, the point is that the reason is Russia's own import ban and the fact that the two countries are in customs union. Ukraine and Russia are not in one (although they were planning to, but the 2004 revolution put that on hold).

I didn't say he went to war over it. But he did order Yanukovich to kill the EU association agreement, which kicked off the protests and everything snowballed from there

No, you are wrong. Protests were mostly peaceful students, and no nazis at all, and protests were waning out. But then Nuland parachuted and said "No, show must go on!" and invited nazis to the party. Nazis had no interests in EU integration, why would they? but then Nuland explained to them that this is opportunity for them.

The protests got violent because of the police crackdown. When there is violence, some of the regular folks stay home, and the crackpots get emboldened. And what evidence do you have that Nuland "invited nazis to the party"? Did Nuland also instruct the security forces to fire at the crowds?

He got elected on the promise of signing the agreement. Your statement is (probably) true only to the extent that Yanukovich probably was always Putin's stooge and simply lied about it earlier.

Honestly I don't know what he promised before elections.

This:

One of the front-runners for 2010 is Viktor Yanukovych, the man whom Russia backed five years ago, and who eventually turned out the loser in the Orange Revolution.

Today, he is trying hard to shed the image of being "Moscow's man".

At a meeting with international businessmen at the US Chamber of Commerce, he told the BBC that much had changed since 2004.

"I remain committed to a balanced policy, which will protect our national interests both on our eastern border - I mean with Russia - and of course with the European Union," he said.

"Ukraine's integration with the EU remains our strategic aim."

Would Yanukovich have been elected if he hadn't promised his backers to continue EU integration (at that time, the association agreement didn't exist, but the idea was out there)? Maybe, maybe not.

The EU association agreement being "shit" is just a diversion. It's mostly symbolic, and the actual meat is in the implementation

No, it was practically designed to lose elections for anyone who signed it,
It literally opened all Ukrainian market for EU, and opened tiny bit of EU market for Ukraine. The reason why students were interested in EU integration and went to Maidan was that they wanted free pass/travel to EU for work and get the hell out of Ukraine, like young people in Baltic states did before them. Come on, who would not want to emigrate to Europe? I mean except nazis of course.

None of that sounds bad. And of course if a smaller country joins a larger economic area, the larger market dominates. Same would be true if Ukraine had joined Russia.

 

[Jayjay]

This is simply bullshit and you know it. Nothing Ukraine did justified the invasion. Not now, and not 8 years ago when Russia took Crimea.

No, it's not bullshit. Bullshit is what you suggest.
Nuland released nazi-themed chaos in Ukraine. Russia is justified to fix it.
Way more than NATO in Yugoslavia. Problem of course is that Russia is small and alone in it.

Funny how nobody in Ukraine can see this "nazi-themed chaos" that Putin and his ilk are trying to sell. The main source of chaos is Russia's annexation of Crimea and support of armed rebels in Donetsk and Luhansk.

 

[Harry Bosch]

A good thing about this invasion is that it might lead to the woke pacifist environmentalist hipsters realize that they are living in a fantasy world. If you want peace in the world the west (the democratic part of the world) needs to prioritise anything that generates wealth and power. It's the only way to to keep the world from sliding into dictatorship. Or to put it another way, if we truly care about the environment and gender equality, we need to prioritise the spread and stability of democracy and democratic ideals in the world. And that requires money, power and weapons.

It's not that trans rights don't matter. It's simply a question of getting the basic right, before we start worrying about the details.

The threat of Russia and China is not trivial.

I think it's beautiful how the Ukraine invasion is bringing EU and Europe together. After decades of impotence and internal bullshit squabbling.

Oh, I agree with you 100%. If the west can stop Russia from taking Ukraine (and not assassinating all their leaders); it could save the world. Obviously, the vast credit would go to the courage and grit of the Ukrainians. But the west has also stepped up dramatically in their economic boycott. Taking Russia off swift, and other economic actions are having a real impact on Russia. People are dumping their Russian imports, no more Russian vodka, no more football with Russia, IOC kicking out the Russians, and etc. If Ukraine and the west stops Russia, it will save the rest of Eastern Europe. But it also may divert the Chinese attack on Taiwan. China is far more sensitive to wanting to be a player in the world than Russia is. They want to be able to sell their products. They wouldn't want their banks devastated by being taking off swift. And the Chinese government cares far more for their people's welfare that the Russian leaders do.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Can someone tell me what are the current puppet regimes of Russia? Will any of those countries, if they are puppets, send invasion forces alongside Russia into Ukraine?

 

[Harry Bosch]

Can someone tell me what are the current puppet regimes of Russia? Will any of those countries, if they are puppets, send invasion forces alongside Russia into Ukraine?

Luckily, most of the world has turned away from Russia. But apparently Belarus is planning to send soldiers to Ukraine.

Belarus Preparing to Send Soldiers, Report Says: Ukraine Update

www.bloomberg.com

I guess the Belarusians have adopted Putin's strategy that to have a peaceful border (like the US and Canadian border) just send in invaders, kill civilians, assassinate people, blow up their infrastructure, and then harmony will follow! It's really fucking sad.