How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[SLD]

Kharkiv City Hall Bombing

Yep! That's what I was talking about earlier, I am glad you posted it.
now find 10 things which are not right with that video

I'll start the list.

10 things which are not right with that video

1. Russia blows things up in Ukraine
2. Russian military shouldn't even be in Ukraine

Try again.

That's unnecessary. I got the first two items exactly right. Others can add the other eight.

Building mysteriously catches fire

4. Russian targeting sucks.
5. Russians are targeting civilian buildings.

this is fun. Somebody add the next two!

 

[SLD]

State Controlled Putin News in Russia

Events in Ukraine are not referred to as war. Instead, the offensive is described as a demilitarisation operation targeting military infrastructure or a "special [military] operation to defend the people's republics".
Across state-controlled TV, presenters and correspondents use emotive language and images to draw "historical parallels" between Russia's "special military operation" in Ukraine and the Soviet Union's fight against Nazi Germany.

This is the tripe barbos keeps posting. I suppose if I was a brainwashed Putin diehard relying on Putin's state controlled broadcasting for my information I would be equally misinformed.

I wonder to what extent ordinary Russians are able to read western news on the internet such as CNN or BBC. I believe they have Russian editions.

 

[Jayjay]

The real thing is Putin needs to GET GOOD.

20-30% of ukrainians don't agree. Think about that.
Do you think such Country is sustainable?

Link?

Seriously? You did not see that data before the war?

So now it's "before the war" and not during? US opinion against joining WW2 was also around 30% just prior to Pearl Harbor.

Yes, your propaganda denied even that. They were/are creating a picture where 99% of ukrainains are patriots hell bent on singing ukrainian songs and all that, the rest is just russian shenanigans with tiny amount of puppets and large amount of evil russian soldiers with guns who patrtol streets of occupied Chrimea, etc.

The point was that even if 20% or even 30% are pro-Russian before the war, now that Russia is bombing and shelling them in Kharkiv and Odessa, they might have changed their minds. Crimea was always an outlier demographically.

No, I don't have a current data, all I have is a journalist who is kinda OK with Russia moving in and not OK with people dying. I expected him to be much less OK. Of course people in Lugansk/Donetsk are very glad that Russia finally decided to end this war, but then again, you don't know anything about them. to you they don't exist.

I wouldn't expect anyone to have current polling data. It's impossible to gather in war conditions. We'll know when the dust settles.

I'm sure the remaining collaborators in the separatist controlled areas are cheering, and the people near the border who couldn't flee are happy that the battle has moved to other places. But what about the 1.4 million people who had to flee Crimea, Luhansk, and Donetsk because of Russia and Russian-backed separatist militias? What do you think they feel about Putin's wars?

Besides, Putin could have ended the war any day by telling his henchmen to lay down their arms. Fighting would have been over in one day. He could even give the terrorist leaders asylum in Russia like he did to instigators of the Odessa clashes.

Irony here of course, they were in freaking Poland. Russia has nothing to do with these "ukrainains".
I mean Bandera was not even ukrainian. Well, he was, but from Poland. Damn Stalin, should have returned Western Ukraine to Poland.
Russia got this fascist crap when they got that western Ukraine from Poland.
And Ukrainians which were historically in Russian part often don't even consider them ukrainians. They consider them poles, espeacially when they get tired of their nationalist crap and decide to insult their way out of it.

I mean CNN goes on to talk about church in Lviv, and says it's cathollic church.
Give me a break, and read about how Catholicism came about in Ukraine.

Not that I care about orthodox church, but please do what I suggested.
This is a deeply divided not a country. Even during USSR, you were better learn to speak proper ukrainian before going to Lviv because there was a chance that you get surprise test in the street and if you fail they would beat you up.

Ukraine is a deeply divided country in which West took one side and gave them power in order to terrorize the rest in order to cause problems in Russia.
I have no doubt that it was a plan.

Here we go again. Blaming "the West" for exactly what Russia is literally doing out in the open, and spewing the lie about Ukraine not being a real country and therefore ok to bomb and invade. Most countries in the world are not ethnically or linguistically uniform, but the various peoples still get along and in time will learn to live with each other. Just because Ukraine has some problems now, is not a reason to invade to "rescue" the Russia-speaking population. Let them sort it out among themselves. Or support the Russian minority's rights diplomatically, not by installing puppet rulers who act like dictators. That only backfires.

 

[lpetrich]

I clarified Germany's NATO join dates:

• 1949: Belgium, Canada, Denmark, France, Iceland, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, The United Kingdom, The United States
• 1952: Greece, Turkey
• 1955: W Germany
• 1982: Spain
• 1990: E Germany (unified with W Germany)
• 1999: Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland
• 2004: Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia
• 2009: Albania, Croatia
• 2017: Montenegro
• 2020: North Macedonia
• (aspiring members): Bosnia-Herzegovina, Georgia, Ukraine
• (cooperating non-members): Armenia, Azerbaijan, Austria, Finland, Ireland, Malta, Moldova, Sweden, Switzerland
• (with unresolved disputes): Cyprus, Kosovo, Serbia
• (hostile): Belarus, Russia

 Enlargement of NATO -  Foreign relations of NATO - search for "Relations with <country>" at nato.int

I've created a table of the affiliations of these nations

Dates	Non-Communist	Ex-Soviet-Bloc	Ex-USSR	Ex-Yugoslavia	Albania
1949	Bel Can Den Fra Ice Ita Lux Net Nor Por UK US
1952	Gre Tur
1955	WGer
1982	Spa
1990		EGer
1999		Cze Hun Pol
2004		Bul Rom Svk	Est Ltv Lth	Svn
2009				Cro	Alb
2017				Mtn
2020				NMac
Aspiring			Geo Ukr	BH
Cooperating	Aus Fin Ire Mal Swe Swz		Arm Aze Mol
Disputed	Cyp			Kos Ser
Hostile			Bel Rus

 

[Jayjay]

Speaking of the video, wow, just wow!
I've watched it yesterday. Immediately found obvious inconsistency.
Then you posted it here, the same video but different poster and shorter.
Inconsistency is gone! Fine. I go the the version I saw first, inconsistency is gone there too! Problem is, they did crappy job and introduced another.
And it does not help them at all because the rest is fake too. It just shows that these pieces of shit clearly faked it.

fucking nazi scam!

So you have no evidence. Instead, you imagined some unspecified "inconsistency" that magically disappeared when you went back and tried to look for it.

There are several videos online with the rubble near that building. What exactly do you think is "fake" about it?

 

[barbos]

Kharkiv City Hall Bombing

Yep! That's what I was talking about earlier, I am glad you posted it.
now find 10 things which are not right with that video

I'll start the list.

10 things which are not right with that video

1. Russia blows things up in Ukraine
2. Russian military shouldn't even be in Ukraine

Try again.

That's unnecessary. I got the first two items exactly right. Others can add the other eight.

Building mysteriously catches fire

4. Russian targeting sucks.
5. Russians are targeting civilian buildings.

this is fun. Somebody add the next two!

I gave you a hint - russians have nothing to do with it.

 

[barbos]

State Controlled Putin News in Russia

Events in Ukraine are not referred to as war. Instead, the offensive is described as a demilitarisation operation targeting military infrastructure or a "special [military] operation to defend the people's republics".
Across state-controlled TV, presenters and correspondents use emotive language and images to draw "historical parallels" between Russia's "special military operation" in Ukraine and the Soviet Union's fight against Nazi Germany.

This is the tripe barbos keeps posting. I suppose if I was a brainwashed Putin diehard relying on Putin's state controlled broadcasting for my information I would be equally misinformed.

I wonder to what extent ordinary Russians are able to read western news on the internet such as CNN or BBC. I believe they have Russian editions.

Checked CNN web site, it works. I have not heard it ever being in russian. But google translates it just fine. And CNN/BBC/DE TV channels are "aired" over government controlled cable. Not translated of course, so it's english, grench, german, etc. There is a japenese news channel in english.

 

[barbos]

Speaking of the video, wow, just wow!
I've watched it yesterday. Immediately found obvious inconsistency.
Then you posted it here, the same video but different poster and shorter.
Inconsistency is gone! Fine. I go the the version I saw first, inconsistency is gone there too! Problem is, they did crappy job and introduced another.
And it does not help them at all because the rest is fake too. It just shows that these pieces of shit clearly faked it.

fucking nazi scam!

So you have no evidence. Instead, you imagined some unspecified "inconsistency" that magically disappeared when you went back and tried to look for it.

No, there are two versions, one with and without.

There are several videos online with the rubble near that building. What exactly do you think is "fake" about it?

Warmer, you are getting warmer

 

[barbos]

«Оружие убери»: Зеленский объяснил в Донбассе, что он не лох - Газета.Ru

Украинский лидер Владимир Зеленский приехал в Донбасс для того, чтобы лично потребовать националистов «убрать оружие» в районе разведения сил. Однако разговор с радикалами не сложился. Зеленский не увидел «в их глазах понимания», когда диалог зашел о проходящих на Украине акциях протеста против...

www.gazeta.ru

«Они воюют нелегально»: с кем повздорил Зеленский в Донбассе - Газета.Ru

Украинский штаб операции Объединенных сил заявил, что бойцы, которые на повышенных тонах общались с президентом Украины Владимиром Зеленским, и которые отказались покидать линию соприкосновения, не являются военными и воюют в Донбассе нелегально. При этом пресс-секретарь главы государства Юлия...

www.gazeta.ru

Zelensky arguing with nazi in Eastern Ukraine.

So Zelensky is not a nazi, but people fighting on "his" behalf ARE and he failed to take control of them in 2019. Now he is releasing some of that worthless scam from prisons.

Anyone is going to comment on that? anyone?

 

[Jayjay]

I started this thread to ask the question of what should the west do to stop the impending Russian invasion. Well, whatever the west is doing, it just isn't working. The civilians in Ukraine and suffering terribly. The people are putting up a valiant fight, but they are people with day to day jobs going against a professional army with the latest weapons. Apparently, after Russia has conquered Ukraine and murdered it's leaders, they plan to attack Moldova.

MSN

www.msn.com

Individual citizens like you and I can't do much. But we can do this:

1) Write your congressman. Ukrainians need stingers and Javelins. Every effort needs to be made to limit Russian mobility. If their transportation is taken out, they can't conquer.
2) Sanctions, Sanctions, Sanctions. Sanctions are helpful, but probably only over the long term. But the goal should be to bankrupt Russia until, use the carrot of economics to encourage them to stop their imperialism. All Russian banks should be taken off swift. Any and all sanctions should be considered and implemented immediately. The time for slow rolling out sanctions against Russia should be over.
3) Boycott Russian goods and activities. Below is a list of goods that should be boycotted.
4) Help the Ukrainians. Below is an excellent link to support charities helping civilians. Displaced civilians are low on food, water and shelter. I'm going to research the best charities, then will report back after we send them money.
5) Get involved locally. My wife sits on a board for a local theatre. The Russian Orchestra was scheduled to perform in June. Very nice people that we've met before. The board unanimously cancelled the performance.

It might seem a little harsh, but if individual Russians don't feel some of the pain that their government is causing, Putin will never stop. Sadly, the only people who can stop Putin are really the Russian people.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/02/27/how-to-help-ukraine/

Do not buy Russian goods! - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Governors Call for Boycott of Russian Products in Response to Country's Invasion of Ukraine

Businesses and governments are boycotting products from Russia amid the country's ongoing invasion of Ukraine

people.com

Amazing, if only you were so generous to people of Eastern Ukraine.
Also I don't remember you talking about time when your beloved "ukrainians" cut water to Crimea.

You've got sources (although I haven't seen your sources) that say that Ukrainians have been attacking E. Ukrainians. I have sources that I trust (let me know if you want to see them) that say the opposite. Regardless, Russians told the E. Ukrainians to flee to Russia so that they could launch their invasion and kill the "Nazis".

What do you mean sources?
This war started 8 years ago by your side and 14K people died over that period.

The war was started unilaterally and without provocation by Putin, and you know it. The unrest that led to Yanukovich running for his life was an internal Ukrainian problem.

 

[barbos]

The war was started unilaterally and without provocation by Putin, and you know it. The unrest that led to Yanukovich running for his life was an internal Ukrainian problem.

No. that's not how shit starts historically in Ukraine.
Maidan was utter garbage in the end when hordes of degenerates with frying pans over their heads were storming government buildings. When government fell and guys with frying pans over their heads forced existing (!!!) parliament members to vote on garbage laws like language and such, predominantly russian regions knew exactly where it was headed (they know these people, they live in the same country with them). So they said cool, you had your revolt in Kiev? fine, we take power here, and go fuck yourself.

To be fair temporary president vetoed the language law which parliament passed, he knew it was bad bad bad idea, but it was too late, message was sent and received.

Russians in predominantly russian regions had mini-maidans popping everywhere.

 

[Jayjay]

«Нас тут убивают *****» Как в Донбассе люди живут и гибнут на линии фронта с надеждой на долгожданный мир. Репортаж

С 2014 года жители Донбасса живут под постоянными обстрелами. Однако боевые действия постепенно уходят из их жизни. Корреспондент «Ленты.ру» пообщался с жителями прифронтовых населенных пунктов в Донбассе и узнал, с какими надеждами они встретили солдат Народной милиции Донецкой народной республики.

lenta.ru

That URL times out. Tell your colleagues at Roskomnadzor to unblock it.

 

[ZiprHead]

 

[barbos]

«Нас тут убивают *****» Как в Донбассе люди живут и гибнут на линии фронта с надеждой на долгожданный мир. Репортаж

С 2014 года жители Донбасса живут под постоянными обстрелами. Однако боевые действия постепенно уходят из их жизни. Корреспондент «Ленты.ру» пообщался с жителями прифронтовых населенных пунктов в Донбассе и узнал, с какими надеждами они встретили солдат Народной милиции Донецкой народной республики.

lenta.ru

That URL times out. Tell your colleagues at Roskomnadzor to unblock it.

Unlikely Roskomnadzor doing it.

 

[Jayjay]

Negative Kemosabe. You don't know your own history. Russia invaded Crimea in 2014, then E. Ukraine separated from Ukraine with Russian encouragement and direct help. That is the commonly held history of what happened. If you want to allege a contrary view, please support with evidence and links. Here's a source that could help you:

Crimea is not Eastern Ukraine. And nobody died in Crimea.
Why are you posting this obvious garbage?

What is your source that makes you believe that Ukraine attacked Eastern Ukraine killing 18 thousand people?

Estimate is 14K people and these are all sides including military.
What are your sources that it did not happen?

These republics declared independence from regime which came to power as a result of violent maidan coup.


In other news.
Gergiev was fired from La Scala too, replaced with another russian-ossetian. Ossetia is either have inordinate number of musical conductors or these people intentionally did that, understanding that did a boo-boo. Also Russian Opera singer Anna Netrebko was fired too, for the same reason.

Anna Netrebko - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

She is from Krasnodar which is near Ukraine from a cossack family which are all realted to Ukraine and her last name is Ukrainian as well.

Negative. That's not how it works. You claimed that Ukraine attacked Eastern Ukraine and killed 14k people. What is your source for believing this?

Yes, they attacked republics which declared independence from Ukraine trying to get it back, source is reality. Bunch of other regions declared independence after maidan, but Ukraine managed to get them back.

A bunch of unmarked, possibly Russian, militants seized government buildings and declared "independence" on behalf millions of people living there. That's the starting point of the war in Donbas. Sending troops when the police couldn't deal with foreign-backed rebels is not an "attack", it's defense. If your city was taken over by, say, ISIS and declared it an islamic caliphate, you're damn right the authorities would be allowed to react.

 

[barbos]

Negative Kemosabe. You don't know your own history. Russia invaded Crimea in 2014, then E. Ukraine separated from Ukraine with Russian encouragement and direct help. That is the commonly held history of what happened. If you want to allege a contrary view, please support with evidence and links. Here's a source that could help you:

Crimea is not Eastern Ukraine. And nobody died in Crimea.
Why are you posting this obvious garbage?

What is your source that makes you believe that Ukraine attacked Eastern Ukraine killing 18 thousand people?

Estimate is 14K people and these are all sides including military.
What are your sources that it did not happen?

These republics declared independence from regime which came to power as a result of violent maidan coup.


In other news.
Gergiev was fired from La Scala too, replaced with another russian-ossetian. Ossetia is either have inordinate number of musical conductors or these people intentionally did that, understanding that did a boo-boo. Also Russian Opera singer Anna Netrebko was fired too, for the same reason.

Anna Netrebko - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

She is from Krasnodar which is near Ukraine from a cossack family which are all realted to Ukraine and her last name is Ukrainian as well.

Negative. That's not how it works. You claimed that Ukraine attacked Eastern Ukraine and killed 14k people. What is your source for believing this?

Yes, they attacked republics which declared independence from Ukraine trying to get it back, source is reality. Bunch of other regions declared independence after maidan, but Ukraine managed to get them back.

A bunch of unmarked, possibly Russian, militants seized government buildings and declared "independence" on behalf millions of people living there. That's the starting point of the war in Donbas. Sending troops when the police couldn't deal with foreign-backed rebels is not an "attack", it's defense. If your city was taken over by, say, ISIS and declared it an islamic caliphate, you're damn right the authorities would be allowed to react.

No. you are talking about Crimea. I am talking about Eastern Ukraine.

Crimea was different. There was no chance in hell for Russia allowing it to stay in that kind of "Ukraine", mainly because of russian military base there, no chance!
Crimea had almost no local ukrainian nazis in it to organize any kind of measururable mess.
There were funny stories where nazis were trying to bus themselves IN from Western Ukraine, but Crimea is practically an island, very easy to check the traffic, locals politely turned these buses around and asked never try it again.

 

[ZiprHead]

I gave you a hint - russians have nothing to do with it.

 

[barbos]

«Нас тут убивают *****» Как в Донбассе люди живут и гибнут на линии фронта с надеждой на долгожданный мир. Репортаж

С 2014 года жители Донбасса живут под постоянными обстрелами. Однако боевые действия постепенно уходят из их жизни. Корреспондент «Ленты.ру» пообщался с жителями прифронтовых населенных пунктов в Донбассе и узнал, с какими надеждами они встретили солдат Народной милиции Донецкой народной республики.

lenta.ru

That URL times out. Tell your colleagues at Roskomnadzor to unblock it.

Unlikely Roskomnadzor doing it.

I checked VPN, and all of them seems to be blocking russian web sites.
So much for freedom, eh?
What are you afraid of? It's used to be russian government being afraid of your news.
Now you are blocking ordinary not even pro-putin news websites?

 

[barbos]

«Оружие убери»: Зеленский объяснил в Донбассе, что он не лох - Газета.Ru

Украинский лидер Владимир Зеленский приехал в Донбасс для того, чтобы лично потребовать националистов «убрать оружие» в районе разведения сил. Однако разговор с радикалами не сложился. Зеленский не увидел «в их глазах понимания», когда диалог зашел о проходящих на Украине акциях протеста против...

www.gazeta.ru

«Они воюют нелегально»: с кем повздорил Зеленский в Донбассе - Газета.Ru

Украинский штаб операции Объединенных сил заявил, что бойцы, которые на повышенных тонах общались с президентом Украины Владимиром Зеленским, и которые отказались покидать линию соприкосновения, не являются военными и воюют в Донбассе нелегально. При этом пресс-секретарь главы государства Юлия...

www.gazeta.ru

Zelensky arguing with nazi in Eastern Ukraine.

So Zelensky is not a nazi, but people fighting on "his" behalf ARE and he failed to take control of them in 2019. Now he is releasing some of that worthless scam from prisons.

Looks like you won't be able to comment on that because your government is afraid of you knowing the truth.
This is unfortunate, very unfortunate.

 

[Jayjay]

???????!! Do you honestly believe that the Russian troops in Ukraine are on a training mission?

Ukraine had democracy before "invasion" and they will have it after.

Not if it were up to Putin. Only if they can resist the invasion hard enough to negotiate something resembling sovereignty, but I'm not so sure of that.

I think it's up to two options: either Putin will annex the East and South in their entirety, and cripple the rest with an unprecedented refugee crisis and economic turmoil, or it will use some of the less strategically important pro-Russian regions as a tool to "democratically" sway the Ukrainian political process. Basically some sort of veto for the Russian puppet regions in Ukrainian foreign policy.

I repeat my question, what does NATO offer them?

NATO offers a deterrent against Russia just waltzing in like it has now.