How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[T.G.G. Moogly]

It's not tribalism. it's an Echo Chamber between Cold War Era scam in US government and US Media. Nothing MSM/US government says about Russia is true, it's all a lie.

You've just demonstrated my point. Thank-you!

No, I did not.

It would be far more advantageous to the people of russia and america to cooperate on everything, to not spend their fortunes building weapons to kill each other. Think of all the resources that were wasted on wars. It's incredible. All that could have been spent making lives more productive and peaceful. I think Einstein was right. Now if we could only get there globally we'd have something to be proud of.

It would not be advantageous to US government people.

The shortsightedness and insanity just does not end. The shame of it is that you cannot see yourself as me. I have to be your enemy because you need an enemy like that tribe across the way. Grow up FFS. Stop the insanity. It is better for everyone if we cooperate on everything.

 

[Jarhyn]

What red line would you say Putin ought not cross? What creates the shapes of such lines?

What is this?

Looks like a bad faith response to the question
"What red lines ought Putin not cross?"
And
"What creates the shape of such lines?"

It appears your answer all this time is supposed to be "defensive realism".

But this is bad faith because the action being taken is an attack.

This implies there is no limit.

 

[barbos]

It's not tribalism. it's an Echo Chamber between Cold War Era scam in US government and US Media. Nothing MSM/US government says about Russia is true, it's all a lie.

You've just demonstrated my point. Thank-you!

No, I did not.

It would be far more advantageous to the people of russia and america to cooperate on everything, to not spend their fortunes building weapons to kill each other. Think of all the resources that were wasted on wars. It's incredible. All that could have been spent making lives more productive and peaceful. I think Einstein was right. Now if we could only get there globally we'd have something to be proud of.

It would not be advantageous to US government people.

The shortsightedness and insanity just does not end. The shame of it is that you cannot see yourself as me. I have to be your enemy because you need an enemy like that tribe across the way. Grow up FFS. Stop the insanity. It is better for everyone if we cooperate on everything.

I don't know what are you discussing here but it is certainly not the topic I discuss here.

 

[barbos]

What red line would you say Putin ought not cross? What creates the shapes of such lines?

What is this?

Looks like a bad faith response to the question
"What red lines ought Putin not cross?"
And
"What creates the shape of such lines?"

It appears your answer all this time is supposed to be "defensive realism".

But this is bad faith because the action being taken is an attack.

This implies there is no limit.

What red lines are you talking about?
What is wrong with you here?
Is that a result of stupid decision to merge two rather unrelated threads?
You act as if Russia is bad going to invade Ukraine is a fact and truth.

It is not, it just is not. End of discussion.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

It is so interesting that tribalism so easily wins the day. It must make an intelligent person question what drives tribalism. The russian tribe vs the american tribe. So typical. Obviously what sustains and drives this insane behavior is emotionalism, specifically a mix of fear and greed.

When asked why he fled Germany Einstein replied that his country had gone mad. So obvious and so true.

It's too simplistic to say that it's America vs Russia. This isn't the new cold war. There are one group of people who want to govern themselves; there's another that wants to expand. Russian manifest destiny if you will. Yes, the US was in this imperialist mode 150 years ago. My ancestors were victims to this. Russia is in its expansion mode now. The only question is how far will they expand. How much more land will they conquer? I hate to tell my Ukranian friends, but Russia isn't going to give up Crimea. I hear that the area is a favorite for Russian generals and the Russian elite to vacation to. They going to slice off a large part of eastern Ukraine. There just isn't much the west can do to stop it. If Ukraine were smart, they should consolidate what they have and hunker down. But here's the issue that Barbos won't answer: how far is Russia going to expand? Finland? The Baltics. Poland. How far will their imperialism go?

The fact is that Russia isn't going to expand. Expansionist empires are a thing of the past. Look at all the empires that have come and gone.

And yes, it is too simplistic to say america vs russia because I intended that to mean tribe vs tribe. Pick your combatants, it doesn't really matter. Maybe Putin is too dumb to realize that. If he is then we're all trapped. Like comrade Nikita said, we need to untie the knot.

 

[Elixir]

IIt would not be advantageous to US government people.

Of course it would be disadvantageous for some "US government people" and advantageous to others.
But -
It would be utterly DISASTROUS for "Russia Government People".
They are the billionaires who stole everything that wasn't bolted down when the Soviet Union dissolved.
Any change to the status quo would be a downturn for them. If an armed conflict occurs in the near future, it will be done for no other reason than to further consolidate control of Russian wealth for the oligarchs.

put it in text format to discuss.

[post removed]

^ IOW, barbos has zero intent to indulge in good faith discussion.

 

[barbos]

You know what russian foreign minister once (actually he said it more than once) said?
He said referring to his western idiot counterparts - "They are not listening"
This describes this whole Russia-West and this thread perfectly.

 

[Elixir]

You know what russian foreign minister once (actually he said it more than once) said?
He said referring to his western idiot counterparts - "They are not listening"
This describes this whole Russia-West and this thread perfectly.

Wannabe power brokers throwing tantrums and whining about their own impotence...

 

[barbos]

You know what russian foreign minister once (actually he said it more than once) said?
He said referring to his western idiot counterparts - "They are not listening"
This describes this whole Russia-West and this thread perfectly.

Wannabe power brokers whining about their own impotence...

Could you translate that into english?

 

[Elixir]

You know what russian foreign minister once (actually he said it more than once) said?
He said referring to his western idiot counterparts - "They are not listening"
This describes this whole Russia-West and this thread perfectly.

Wannabe power brokers whining about their own impotence...

Could you translate that into english?

 

[Jarhyn]

So, what I'm gathering through the constant inability to recognize even the concept of a red line that there are no things, no principles by which any action by Putin could be rejected as unethically aggressive.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

So, what I'm gathering through the constant inability to recognize even the concept of a red line that there are no things, no principles by which any action by Putin could be rejected as unethically aggressive.

According to barbos that seems to be the case. Whatever Putin and mother Russia do is the right thing.

 

[Rhea]

What red line would you say Putin ought not cross? What creates the shapes of such lines?

What is this?

It is possible that Barbos is answering this way because he does not know what a red line is. So let’s just explain that.

A “Red Line” means any threshhold in an argument or action that the person acting will STOP before saying or doing. Also called “A Line in the Sand.”

Some examples include, “I’ll fight any adult people who come to this side of the river, but fighting children is a red line that I won’t cross.” Or, “I’ll shop at big box stores, but going in to Walmart is a red line I won’t cross.”

When one asks, “who decides on the shape of it,” they mean, who decided what is still right and what is absolutely wrong.

Hope that helps.

 

[Rhea]

Wannabe power brokers whining about their own impotence...

Could you translate that into english?

This means, “people who think of themselves as being able to influence highly placed people, and who think they are able to sell that influence to other, now expressing sadness at their inability to influence anyone important.”

 

[barbos]

Wannabe power brokers whining about their own impotence...

Could you translate that into english?

This means, “people who think of themselves as being able to influence highly placed people, and who think they are able to sell that influence to other, now expressing sadness at their inability to influence anyone important.”

And this is related to the video I posted how?

 

[barbos]

What red line would you say Putin ought not cross? What creates the shapes of such lines?

What is this?

It is possible that Barbos is answering this way because he does not know what a red line is. So let’s just explain that.

A “Red Line” means any threshhold in an argument or action that the person acting will STOP before saying or doing. Also called “A Line in the Sand.”

Some examples include, “I’ll fight any adult people who come to this side of the river, but fighting children is a red line that I won’t cross.” Or, “I’ll shop at big box stores, but going in to Walmart is a red line I won’t cross.”

When one asks, “who decides on the shape of it,” they mean, who decided what is still right and what is absolutely wrong.

Hope that helps.

I know what the red line is. I just don't understand how can Putin cross the red line he himself set. Is Putin a head of NATO?

 

[Harry Bosch]

What red line would you say Putin ought not cross? What creates the shapes of such lines?

What is this?

It is possible that Barbos is answering this way because he does not know what a red line is. So let’s just explain that.

A “Red Line” means any threshhold in an argument or action that the person acting will STOP before saying or doing. Also called “A Line in the Sand.”

Some examples include, “I’ll fight any adult people who come to this side of the river, but fighting children is a red line that I won’t cross.” Or, “I’ll shop at big box stores, but going in to Walmart is a red line I won’t cross.”

When one asks, “who decides on the shape of it,” they mean, who decided what is still right and what is absolutely wrong.

Hope that helps.

I know what the red line is. I just don't understand how can Putin cross the red line he himself set. Is Putin a head of NATO?

Yes, this is the issue! Ukraine is somewhat of a smokescreen. Putin wants more. You know it, but don't want to admit it for some reason. You don't want there to be a red line, so that Putin won't have any excuses from his supporters. An imperialist Russia and China will be the greatest challenges facing the west over the next 20 years.

 

[barbos]

Yes, this is the issue! Ukraine is somewhat of a smokescreen. Putin wants more. You know it, but don't want to admit it for some reason. You don't want there to be a red line, so that Putin won't have any excuses from his supporters. An imperialist Russia and China will be the greatest challenges facing the west over the next 20 years.

Why did Putin leave Georgia?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Why did he ever invade? Why did Hitler leave France?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

NATO is an aggressive block which is run by US who use it to harass Russia economically into regime change or submission.
NATO flat out attacking Russia would be dumbest idea. It's not the idea. The Idea is to take Russia piece by piece fermenting regime change by any means possible among russian economic partners and Russia itself, economic sanctions, political isolation, paying baltic politicians for fake outrage and trash they spewing.

You are making the hidden assumption that Ukraine is part of Russia. The Ukrainians don't agree with you.