How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[Jayjay]

Fog of war. We don't know what happened. Could have been Russian's fucking things up like Russians do, but it also could have been sabotage. Or even those helicopters.

 

[Copernicus]

Fog of war. We don't know what happened. Could have been Russian's fucking things up like Russians do, but it also could have been sabotage. Or even those helicopters.

True. The story relies on a report made by the local Russian honcho in charge of that area, so it would be better for him if the Ukrainians did it. If the fire were caused by local incompetence, some heads would roll.

 

[steve_bank]

Biden's message to Russia, you cannot afford Putin as your leader. Deal with him. Biden was right to do so.

The problem is Putin has a lot of support. His decades of anti west propaganda and fear mongering worked.

That isn't something we control. Don't stress about it.

In the words of Alfred E Newman, 'What, me worry?'.
.

 

[steve_bank]

It is easy to manipulate our media.

Burn some oil for smoke, take a picture, and make a report. Our frantic 24/7 media on a feeding frenzy will take it, amplify it, and spin it.

 

[bilby]

Fog of war. We don't know what happened. Could have been Russian's fucking things up like Russians do, but it also could have been sabotage. Or even those helicopters.

True. The story relies on a report made by the local Russian honcho in charge of that area, so it would be better for him if the Ukrainians did it. If the fire were caused by local incompetence, some heads would roll.

I recall an English TV show back in the '70s, in which some criminal types planned to steal explosives from a poorly guarded army base.

One of the gang is nervous; The heist plan seems sound, but he worries that once they succeed, the police will leave no stone unturned to find the gang responsible, and recover the stolen explosives.

The gang boss reassures him that as long as they put on their best fake Irish accents during the theft, no serious investigations of English gangsters will occur.

I suspect the Russian in charge of that depot is hoping that "It must have been the Ukrainians" plays as well in his situation as "It must have been the IRA" did back then.

 

[zorq]

Scene: A woman cries out pleading for help as a rapist tears her clothes off.

Jason: "As a libertarian, I can't help her because that would make me the 'ultimate authority' around the neighborhood and what a slippery slope that is. I don't want to be a dictator."

Nonsense, but if I were to consider it as anything in the same solar system as valid then the contrary point to that post is "I think that guy over there might be thinking about rape so I better kill him now."

Are you even paying attention? Reading any news at all? Completely oblivious? The rapist has already stuck his dick in. The rape is underway. You don't have to kill the rapist to help the woman begging for help. You might have to use violence, but here's the thing, sometimes violence is justified. Yes, even for you.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Fog of war. We don't know what happened. Could have been Russian's fucking things up like Russians do, but it also could have been sabotage. Or even those helicopters.

True. The story relies on a report made by the local Russian honcho in charge of that area, so it would be better for him if the Ukrainians did it. If the fire were caused by local incompetence, some heads would roll.

There is definitely another video out there of two helicopters firing missiles into the facility and then tanks exploding. If they are indeed Ukrainian which it most likely the case, then good on them. Anyone who thinks this is an "escalation" considering what the Russians have been doing to Ukraine for the past month must be suffering from Russian Propaganda Syndrome. Putin's pigs certainly want people to be afraid and think this is an escalation but it most certainly is not. It needs to happen a thousand more times and should happen a thousand more times. Any facility supporting the war against Ukraine is fair game.

 

[Copernicus]

Fog of war. We don't know what happened. Could have been Russian's fucking things up like Russians do, but it also could have been sabotage. Or even those helicopters.

True. The story relies on a report made by the local Russian honcho in charge of that area, so it would be better for him if the Ukrainians did it. If the fire were caused by local incompetence, some heads would roll.

There is definitely another video out there of two helicopters firing missiles into the facility and then tanks exploding. If they are indeed Ukrainian which it most likely the case, then good on them. Anyone who thinks this is an "escalation" considering what the Russians have been doing to Ukraine for the past month must be suffering from Russian Propaganda Syndrome. Putin's pigs certainly want people to be afraid and think this is an escalation but it most certainly is not. It needs to happen a thousand more times and should happen a thousand more times. Any facility supporting the war against Ukraine is fair game.

Yes, I have now seen the other video, and NBC news confirms that it was a bona fide Ukrainian attack on a target inside of Russia. I'm not sure that it was the best idea to attack a target inside of Russia, but I'm far from being an expert in war strategy. At the very least, it shows that the Ukrainians still have the capability to punch back hard, even though Kharkiv, which is around 20 miles away, has been totally devastated by Russian bombardments. Russian attacks haven't really degraded the Ukrainian military to the point where they can't carry out a daring raid like this.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Biden's message to Russia, you cannot afford Putin as your leader. Deal with him. Biden was right to do so.

The problem is Putin has a lot of support. His decades of anti west propaganda and fear mongering worked.

Comments of a very empathetic man who had just been surrounded with the displaced mothers and children of this attack. That’s what I saw. But it gave the press something to play with for a bit.

The problem with Putin’s support is while his propaganda shaped a Russian world where the US is a great boogieman, he attacked a country that 88% of Russians consider their friends.
You have a Russian people who have this overwhelmingly positive opinion of Ukrainians while simultaneously support Putin’s “special military operation” in that same country. These are the near conflicting truths that might be exploited to turn opinion against the war. What separates the two are Putin’s nazi bullshit. But that crumbles if the focus is no longer regime change in Kyiv.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Scene: A woman cries out pleading for help as a rapist tears her clothes off.

Jason: "As a libertarian, I can't help her because that would make me the 'ultimate authority' around the neighborhood and what a slippery slope that is. I don't want to be a dictator."

Nonsense, but if I were to consider it as anything in the same solar system as valid then the contrary point to that post is "I think that guy over there might be thinking about rape so I better kill him now."

Maybe you should also say that to Harry Bosch, steve_bank, and ZiprHead when they describe "my" position.

You have no position. That's the point.

So now "don't get involved" isn't even a position at all. Good way to restrict the debate.

You enjoy your democratic freedoms but begrudge them to others.

Bullshit.

Democracy is the world's policeman.

Absurdist nonsense.

So you think that we should have the US be the ultimate authority around the world, bombing anyone who steps out of line even a little, deciding for all other countries? Killing civilians even in countries that couldn't pose a threat to us? Is that the conservative policy that you follow?

You do realize it's Russia doing that in this case, right?

What about my offer to help you directly support the Ukranians? Not interested? Neocons do very much like it when other people do the fighting.

Jasons back! I hope that you have been able to study this war while you were away and understand now that it is Russia invading Ukraine, not the reverse. Secondly, everyone is "involved" to some extent in this war. Many of us have family members directly in Ukraine, Russia, or the countries near by. I have in-laws that live 12 miles from the Ukranian border. But everyone in the world who either eats or relies on gasoline will be affected. Ukraine is one of the great breadbaskets of the world. And I hate to say it, but not easy for Ukrainians to plant their crops (it is spring right now) while the god damn Russians are blowing the shit out of anything moving over there.

Finally, many people are volunteering to serve in Ukraine. At no pay. The Russians have to pay Nazi private soldiers from Syria and Chechnya. It is very nice for you to volunteer to help send private citizens to Ukraine to help. However, sometimes untrained soldiers more get in the way than help. The Ukrainians needs supplies to keep fighting the invaders.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I hope that you have been able to study this war while you were away and understand now that it is Russia invading Ukraine, not the reverse.

Never said otherwise. My point of contention is that this isn't the business of the US, and you think this is so important you want other people to fight for causes you believe in.

Finally, many people are volunteering to serve in Ukraine. At no pay.

Where are you?

The Russians have to pay Nazi private soldiers from Syria and Chechnya.

They can fight the Azov battalion.

 

[Harry Bosch]

I hope that you have been able to study this war while you were away and understand now that it is Russia invading Ukraine, not the reverse.

Never said otherwise. My point of contention is that this isn't the business of the US, and you think this is so important you want other people to fight for causes you believe in.

Finally, many people are volunteering to serve in Ukraine. At no pay.

Where are you?

The Russians have to pay Nazi private soldiers from Syria and Chechnya.

They can fight the Azov battalion.

The Ukranians don't need me in their military. I'd be hinderance to them. Too old. Haven't shot a rifle in 5 years. How about you? Why aren't you helping the Russians? So, you're okay with the Russians invading a country to attack the Azov battalion in Ukraine. Would you support their invasion of Texas to go after the Aryan Brotherhood of Texas? Or would you join the effort if they were to invade Japan to go after the National Socialist Japanese Workers Party? Believe it or not this is one of the largest Nazi parties in the world (they are not socialists). Far bigger than Azov battalion.

Below are further lists of prominent Nazi Parties. Go after them all? Or are you willing to admit that you're just dying to find excuses for the Russian invasion?

Iran[edit]​

• SUMKA (Iran National-Socialist Workers Party)

Mongolia[edit]​

• Tsagaan Khas

Taiwan[edit]​

• National Socialism Association

Europe[edit]​

Former Yugoslavia[edit]​

• Nacionalni stroj (National Alignment) – Serbia
• Serbian Action – Serbia
• Leviathan Movement - Serbia
• Bad Blue Boys - Croatia

Austria[edit]​

• Identitäre Bewegung Österreich
• League of Free Youth (Bund freier Jugend)

Belgium and the Netherlands[edit]​

• Dutch Peoples-Union (Nederlandse Volks-Unie) – Netherlands
• Order of Flemish Militants – Flanders
• National Alliance – Netherlands
• Bloed, Bodem, Eer en Trouw – Flanders
• Parti Communautaire National-Européen – Belgium
• Parti Communautaire Européen – Belgium
• Racial Volunteer Force – Belgium

Denmark[edit]​

• Danmarks Nationalsocialistiske Bevægelse (National Socialist Movement of Denmark)
• Danish Front
• Den nordiske modstandsbevægelse (Nordic Resistance Movement)
• Party of the Danes

Estonia[edit]​

• Feuerkrieg Division

Finland[edit]​

• Pohjoismainen Vastarintaliike (Nordic Resistance Movement)
• Kohti vapautta

France[edit]​

• Combat 18[3]

Germany[edit]​

• Action Front of National Socialists/National Activists
• Atomwaffen Division Deutschland
• Autonome Nationalisten
• Artgemeinschaft
• Blood & Honour
• Deutsche Heidnische Front
• Der Dritte Weg
• Die Rechte
• Free German Workers' Party
• German Alternative
• Gesinnungsgemeinschaft der Neuen Front
• Identitarian movement
• Military-sports-group Hoffmann
• National Democratic Party of Germany
• Nationalist Front (Germany)
• National Offensive
• National Socialist Underground
• Pegida
• Socialist Reich Party
• Wiking-Jugend

Greece[edit]​

• Golden Dawn

Italy[edit]​

• Avanguardia Nazionale (National Avantgarde)
• Ordine Nuovo (New Order)

Norway[edit]​

• Norges Nasjonalsosialistiske Bevegelse (National Socialist Movement of Norway)
• Nordiske motstandsbevegelsen/Nordiske motstandsrørsla (Nordic Resistance Movement)
• Vigrid
• Heathen Front
• Boot Boys

Russia[edit]​

• Atomwaffen Division Russland
• Slavic Union
• Format18
• National Socialist Society
• National Socialist Russian Workers' Party
• Pamyat Society
• Russian National Unity
• New Russian National Unity
• Russian National Socialist Party

Spain[edit]​

• Acción Nacional Revolucionaria [es] (Revolutionary National Action)[4]
• Acción Radical (Radical Action)[5]
• Alianza Nacional (National Alliance)
• Bases Autónomas (Autonomous Bases)
• Blood & Honour
• Círculo de Estudios Indoeuropeos [es] (Circle of Indo-European Studies)[6]
• Círculo Español de Amigos de Europa (Spanish Circle of Friends of Europe)
• Democracia Nacional (National Democracy)
• Devenir Europeo (European Becoming)[7]
• Estado Nacional Europeo (European Nation State)
• Frente Antisistema [es] (Anti-Systemic Front)[8]
• Hermandad Nacional Socialista Armagedón (Armageddon National Socialist Brotherhood)[9]
• Hispania Verde (Green Hispania)[10]
• Hogar Social Madrid (Social Home Hadrid)[11]
• Lo Nuestro (Ours)[12]
• Nación y Revolución (Nation and Revolution)[13]
• Respuesta Estudiantil (Students' Counterattack)[14]

Sweden[edit]​

• Nordiska motståndsrörelsen (Nordic Resistance Movement)
• Nationalsocialistisk front (National Socialist Front)
• Svenskarnas parti (Party of the Swedes)

Slovakia[edit]​

• Ľudová strana – Naše Slovensko (Kotleba – People's Party Our Slovakia)

Turkey[edit]​

• Nasyonal Aktivitede Zinde İnkişaf (Vigorous Development in National Activity)[15]
• Nasyonal Sosyalist Odak (National Socialist Focus)[16][17]
• Ataman Kardeşliği (Ataman Brotherhood)[18][19]

United Kingdom[edit]​

• British National Front
• British People's Party
• Column 88
• Combat 18
• International Third Position
• League of St. George
• Northern League
• November 9th Society (also known as the British First Party)
• National Action (2014)
• National Socialist Action Party
• National Socialist Movement (1960s)
• National Socialist Movement
• Order of Nine Angles
• Sonnenkrieg Division
• NF Flag Group
• Racial Volunteer Force
• White Nationalist Party
• White Wolves

List of neo-Nazi organizations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Ukraine denies all responsibility for the fire, and those helicopters could easily just be piloted by Russian observers sent there to report on the extent of the damage. If it was an accident because of sloppy safety standards, that would be highly embarrassing to the military and Putin's government. So this video actually proves nothing, since there is no video of an actual attack on the depot. I still think it highly unlikely that Ukraine would fly helicopters that far from the front to attack Russian territory. So I wouldn't put too much trust in the above video as proof of anything. It's just helicopters flying in the sky after the fire occurred.

There is video where we can see the rocket exhaust.

While we can't rule out false flag there's basically no doubt it was an attack.

 

[Copernicus]

Ukraine denies all responsibility for the fire, and those helicopters could easily just be piloted by Russian observers sent there to report on the extent of the damage. If it was an accident because of sloppy safety standards, that would be highly embarrassing to the military and Putin's government. So this video actually proves nothing, since there is no video of an actual attack on the depot. I still think it highly unlikely that Ukraine would fly helicopters that far from the front to attack Russian territory. So I wouldn't put too much trust in the above video as proof of anything. It's just helicopters flying in the sky after the fire occurred.

There is video where we can see the rocket exhaust.

While we can't rule out false flag there's basically no doubt it was an attack.

That's right. I've already acknowledged this and admitted above that I was wrong about the false flag guess. My reputation on the internet as an expert in figuring stuff out has plummeted.

 

[ZiprHead]

Photos and video in the thread. Not for the squeamish.

 

[zorq]

Photos and video in the thread. Not for the squeamish.

Mass civilian executions, check. My Russian war crime bingo card is filling up fast.

 

[Jayjay]

If barbos were still here, he'd say the people of Bucha tied their own hands behind their backs before committing suicide, just to make Russians look bad.

 

[steve_bank]

Maybe he is in a labor, I mean reeduction camp. Maybe he got conscripted and sent to Ukraine for the glory of Russia. Or maybe his Internet access has been cut off.

 

[Jayjay]

Maybe he is in a labor, I mean re-eduction camp.

As a teacher, maybe.

More likely trying to get the heck out of the country. We know he's in the tech industry and has worked in the US, so it's not unlikely that he may have an opportunity to move abroad like many others.

170K Russian IT Specialists Could Emigrate by April – Industry - The Moscow Times

Up to 170,000 Russian IT specialists could flee the country by the end of April, industry figures warned Russian lawmakers Tuesday. Between 50,000-70,000 have already left Russia, the Russian Association for Electronic Communications (RAEC) estimates, in what the industry body is calling the...

www.themoscowtimes.com

 

[ZiprHead]