How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[Harry Bosch]

There are rumors that Putler has agreed to direct peace talks with Zelensky. And that he has agreed to many of their demands (with the exception of returning Crimeria. However, I'd be very careful. I would trust the Russians about as far as I can throw a wet piece of dog shit in the rain.

Everyone is mocking the Russians inability to adapt to modern warfare leading to the destruction of so many tanks. But I think that the larger issue is Russian inability to understand basic human nature. Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov was quoted as stating that "Russia's talks with a "hostile" Ukraine have not been easy, but the main thing is that they are continuing, RIA news agency quoted Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov as saying on Saturday.

"Ukraine is a very difficult country, very difficult for us. In its current state it is hostile towards us," the agency cited him as telling Belarus television.

Kremlin says peace talks should continue, lashes "hostile" Ukraine

Russia's talks with a "hostile" Ukraine have not been easy, but the main thing is that they are continuing, RIA news agency quoted Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov as saying on Saturday.

www.reuters.com

Seriously??! You're surprised if a country is hostile to you when you attack it; destroy its infrastructure; bomb its houses and hospitals, kill its civilians, and take its land. You're surprised that its hostile to you. Oh boy...

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I hope that you have been able to study this war while you were away and understand now that it is Russia invading Ukraine, not the reverse.

Never said otherwise. My point of contention is that this isn't the business of the US, and you think this is so important you want other people to fight for causes you believe in.

Finally, many people are volunteering to serve in Ukraine. At no pay.

Where are you?

The Russians have to pay Nazi private soldiers from Syria and Chechnya.

They can fight the Azov battalion.

The Ukranians don't need me in their military. I'd be hinderance to them. Too old. Haven't shot a rifle in 5 years.

So you are more than willing to send other people. You have an excuse to not take part in causes you believe in.

How about you? Why aren't you helping the Russians?

Because I don't support the Russians. If your thinking is so very limited that you actually believe "if you don't support one side it is because you support the other side" then I can see how one might make that mistake. But it would still be a mistake.

So, you're okay with the Russians invading a country to attack the Azov battalion in Ukraine.

It is your position that the Russians are recruiting Nazis, so let Nazis fight Nazis.

 

[Harry Bosch]

I hope that you have been able to study this war while you were away and understand now that it is Russia invading Ukraine, not the reverse.

Never said otherwise. My point of contention is that this isn't the business of the US, and you think this is so important you want other people to fight for causes you believe in.

Finally, many people are volunteering to serve in Ukraine. At no pay.

Where are you?

The Russians have to pay Nazi private soldiers from Syria and Chechnya.

They can fight the Azov battalion.

The Ukranians don't need me in their military. I'd be hinderance to them. Too old. Haven't shot a rifle in 5 years.

So you are more than willing to send other people. You have an excuse to not take part in causes you believe in.

How about you? Why aren't you helping the Russians?

Because I don't support the Russians. If your thinking is so very limited that you actually believe "if you don't support one side it is because you support the other side" then I can see how one might make that mistake. But it would still be a mistake.

So, you're okay with the Russians invading a country to attack the Azov battalion in Ukraine.

It is your position that the Russians are recruiting Nazis, so let Nazis fight Nazis. [removed]

????? Jason: you need to read the thread from the beginning. I started this thread asking what the west should do to stop Russian imperialism. Never have I advocated sending in Nato to directly fight Russia. This would start a nuclear war. To my knowledge, no one else in this thread has advocated this position either. You are creating another wild strawman.

Secondly, you state that you don't support the Russians. And yet you advocate the west not helping the Ukrainians defending their homes. How does that make any fucking sense? Either you support imperialism, or you do not. Finally, it's not my opinion that the Russians are recruiting Nazis. It's a fact. They have engaged the Waggner Group to fight for them. Do some research.

 

[ZiprHead]

Twitter: Horrifying and unthinkable footage from #Bucha, Ukraine. In one of the apartments, the #Russian invaders set up a HQ with two rooms: the first one was a torture chamber, in the second, civilians were shot in the back of the head while tied up.

 

[ZiprHead]

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60949706?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=62498d9f4f71af55b46169bc%26Questions%20over%20Russian%20Bucha%20denials%262022-04-03T12%3A46%3A56.299Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:8c3f96fe-38ea-436a-a719-f0de64607dd6&pinned_post_asset_id=62498d9f4f71af55b46169bc&pinned_post_type=share

The official Telegram channel of the Russian Defence Ministry has shared a claim that reports of civilian deaths in the town of Bucha are "fake".

Videos from the city, which was recently retaken by Ukrainian forces, show civilians lying dead in the street, some of them apparently with their hands tied, have shocked the world.

The reposted report claims that Russian forces left the city on 30 March – "where have these pictures been for 4 days? The fact that they were absent only confirms that this is fake".

[personal comment removed]

 

[steve_bank]

Does anyone remember Baghdad Bob? He was a Hussein media minister..

He was making a report from downtown Baghdad claiming it was the mother of all battles and the city would never be entered. Meanwhile in the background smoke was rising from the battle. He was the propaganda minister.

Muhammad Saeed al-Sahhaf - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Mohammed Saeed al-Sahhaf (Arabic: محمد سعيد الصحاف Muḥammad Saʿīd Al-Ṣaḥḥāf; 30 July 1937) is an Iraqi former diplomat and politician. He came to worldwide prominence around the 2003 invasion of Iraq, during which he was the Media and Foreign Affairs Minister under Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, acting as spokesman for the Arab Socialist Ba'ath Party and Saddam's government. He has also been nicknamed Baghdad Bob or Comical Ali for his colorful television appearances as the Information Minister of Iraq.

His pronouncements included claims that American soldiers were committing suicide "by the hundreds" outside the city, and denial that there were any American tanks in Baghdad, when in fact they were only several hundred meters (yards) away from the press conference where he was speaking and the combat sounds of nearing American troops could already be heard in the background of the broadcast.[5] On another occasion, he spoke of the disastrous outcomes of previous foreign attempts to invade Iraq, citing an unspecified Western history book and inviting the journalists present to come to his home to read it. His last public appearance as Information Minister was on 8 April 2003, when he said that the Americans "are going to surrender or be burned in their tanks. They will surrender, it is they who will surrender".[6] When asked where he had gotten his information, he replied, "authentic sources—many authentic sources".[7] He pointed out that he "was a professional, doing his job".[7]

He frequently used the word ‘ulūj (علوج), an obscure and particularly insulting term for infidels, to describe the American forces in Iraq. This caused some debate in the Arabic-language media about the exact meaning of the word, with most concluding it meant "bloodsucking insect". In an August 2003 interview on Abu Dhabi Al Oula, al-Sahhaf said it was an archaic term attributed to Umar ibn Al-Khattāb.[8]

Al-Sahhaf gained something of a cult following in the West, appearing on T-shirts, cartoons, and in Internet phenomena.[9] In the UK, a DVD documentary was sold about his exploits and televised interviews, called Comical Ali.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Twitter: Horrifying and unthinkable footage from #Bucha, Ukraine. In one of the apartments, the #Russian invaders set up a HQ with two rooms: the first one was a torture chamber, in the second, civilians were shot in the back of the head while tied up.

I wonder if an invading force had done this to Russians inside of Russia; if the Russians would get "hostile"?

 

[steve_bank]

There were reports of right wing RussianFederation militia in Ukraine who are known for brutality and torture.

Russia committed atrocities in Poland in WWII. The NKVD. The Russins were no better than the Germans, maybe even worse. Rape and plunder on the way to Berlin.

 

[bleubird]

More arrests of super yachts. Arrests are not secures.

 

[lpetrich]

Max Fras on Twitter: "This morning, ..." / Twitter

This morning, Dmitry Medvedev decided to post a lengthy letter "On Poland" - it is a curious mix of Soviet and pan-Slavic mythology with mockery, dire criticism and veiled threats against Poland - here are the key points

Morawiecki, Kaczynski and Czech/Slovenian PM trip to Kyiv was 'like Lenin's trip in a German-funded armoured train', promised Zelensky friendship - but 'lied, of course'

Poland suffers from 'long-term, pathological Russophobia' and does not mind its cost 'if the shed burnt down, let the house burn down too'. Poland (and Polish propaganda) - the most vicious, vulgar and shrill critic of Russia - 'Community of political idiots'.

Poland forgets Soviet Army liberated it from Nazi occupation - instead, Soviet 'occupation' is equated with Nazism - this is a deceitful and disgusting rhetoric. Yet, there are no anti-Polish sentiments in Russia - quite the opposite, Russians have reacted with 'an outburst of sympathy and compassion' to Kaczynski's plane crash in Smolensk, and Russia declared a day of mourning to honour the victims [LOLZ]. Later, during my visits to Poland, I [Medvedev] became convinced that Russia and Poland face no obstacles to improving relations (...) However, Poland's elites, led by Kaczynski ('no.2'), controlled by the American masters, did everything to block the path to normalisation. The interests of the citizens of Poland have been sacrificed due to Russophobia of 'mediocre politicians' and their 'puppeteers from across the ocean' with clear signs of senile insanity (sic!).

[Poland's] decision to abandon the purchase of Russian gas, oil and coal and the opposition to Nord Stream 2 have already caused serious damage to the economy of this country. Now it will only get worse. But now it is much more important for the vassal Polish elites to swear allegiance to their overlords - USA - than to help their own citizens, so they will constantly fan the fire of hatred for the enemy - Russia. Economic cooperation with Russia is beneficial for the Poles, human ties are indispensable, and cultural and scientific exchange between the birthplaces of Pushkin and Mickiewicz, Tchaikovsky and Chopin, Lomonosov and Copernicus is vital.

Medvedev's grand finale: and most likely, Poles will make the *right* choice to cooperate with Russia - on their own, without prompting and pressure from overseas elites suffering from dementia.

EOT, I need to wash my eyes with bleach

Just finished vomiting over this, here's the original should anyone need it:

The original: (in Russian)

 

[lpetrich]

We've seen what Russia-lovers some right-wingers are. Let's look at the extreme left: World Socialist Web Site - Marxist analysis, international working class struggles & the fight for socialism
with
War and militarism - World Socialist Web Site
with
US-NATO Conflict with Russia over Ukraine - World Socialist Web Site
A lot of the articles there seemed to treat the US and NATO as the main villains.

At the beginning of the war,
Oppose the Putin government’s invasion of Ukraine and US-NATO warmongering! For the unity of Russian and Ukrainian workers! - World Socialist Web Site

A day ago,
A letter from David North to a Russian Comrade: “Putin’s invasion is a desperate response to the relentless pressure exerted by the US and NATO upon Russia” - World Socialist Web Site

 

[Copernicus]

Max Fras on Twitter: "This morning, ..." / Twitter

This morning, Dmitry Medvedev decided to post a lengthy letter "On Poland" - it is a curious mix of Soviet and pan-Slavic mythology with mockery, dire criticism and veiled threats against Poland - here are the key points

Morawiecki, Kaczynski and Czech/Slovenian PM trip to Kyiv was 'like Lenin's trip in a German-funded armoured train', promised Zelensky friendship - but 'lied, of course'

Poland suffers from 'long-term, pathological Russophobia' and does not mind its cost 'if the shed burnt down, let the house burn down too'. Poland (and Polish propaganda) - the most vicious, vulgar and shrill critic of Russia - 'Community of political idiots'.

Poland forgets Soviet Army liberated it from Nazi occupation - instead, Soviet 'occupation' is equated with Nazism - this is a deceitful and disgusting rhetoric. Yet, there are no anti-Polish sentiments in Russia - quite the opposite, Russians have reacted with 'an outburst of sympathy and compassion' to Kaczynski's plane crash in Smolensk, and Russia declared a day of mourning to honour the victims [LOLZ]. Later, during my visits to Poland, I [Medvedev] became convinced that Russia and Poland face no obstacles to improving relations (...) However, Poland's elites, led by Kaczynski ('no.2'), controlled by the American masters, did everything to block the path to normalisation. The interests of the citizens of Poland have been sacrificed due to Russophobia of 'mediocre politicians' and their 'puppeteers from across the ocean' with clear signs of senile insanity (sic!).

[Poland's] decision to abandon the purchase of Russian gas, oil and coal and the opposition to Nord Stream 2 have already caused serious damage to the economy of this country. Now it will only get worse. But now it is much more important for the vassal Polish elites to swear allegiance to their overlords - USA - than to help their own citizens, so they will constantly fan the fire of hatred for the enemy - Russia. Economic cooperation with Russia is beneficial for the Poles, human ties are indispensable, and cultural and scientific exchange between the birthplaces of Pushkin and Mickiewicz, Tchaikovsky and Chopin, Lomonosov and Copernicus is vital.

Medvedev's grand finale: and most likely, Poles will make the *right* choice to cooperate with Russia - on their own, without prompting and pressure from overseas elites suffering from dementia.

EOT, I need to wash my eyes with bleach

Just finished vomiting over this, here's the original should anyone need it:

...

I saw no mention of the  Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact or the  Katyn massacre in Medvedev's little anti-Polish screed. Nor did he recall how the Red Army held back and refused military aid before entering Warsaw so that the Germans could bombard the city and wipe out defenders that might be troublesome to future Russian domination. Stalin's policy was to recover Poland as territory lost from the former Russian Empire. So Poles have some experience with Russia's "liberation" of Poland by the Soviet Red Army, which led to a de facto Russian occupation of their country until 1991. Medvedev is right that there is a lot of anti-Russian hatred among Poles, and his boss's unprovoked invasion of Ukraine has done a lot of stoke it up again and reinforce it with 2.3 million Ukrainian refugees, none of whom are feeling much love for Russia at the moment.

 

[lpetrich]

Russia and Far-Right Americans Find Common Ground With Ukraine War - The New York Times - Mar 24 - "Some conservatives have echoed the Kremlin’s misleading claims about the war and vice versa, giving each other’s assertions a sheen of credibility."

I keep on marveling at how right-wingers can be such Russia-lovers. I remember what their predecessors of a half-century ago said about the Soviet Union.

After President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia claimed that action against Ukraine was taken in self-defense, the Fox News host Tucker Carlson and the conservative commentator Candace Owens repeated the assertion. When Mr. Putin insisted he was trying to “denazify” Ukraine, Joe Oltmann, a far-right podcaster, and Lara Logan, another right-wing commentator, mirrored the idea.

The echoing went the other way, too. Some far-right American news sites, like Infowars, stoked a longtime, unfounded Russian claim that the United States funded biological weapons labs in Ukraine. Russian officials seized on the chatter, with the Kremlin contending it had documentation of bioweapons programs that justified its “special military operation” in Ukraine.

As war has raged, the Kremlin’s talking points and some right-wing discourse in the United States — fueled by those on the far right — have coalesced.

 

[Jayjay]

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2022-04-04/russia-to-ask-u-n-security-council-again-to-discuss-bucha-provocations

The gall of these people. When caught red handed with war crimes, they blame it on Ukraine's "provocations" and forgeries. Not to mention that Russia hasn't withdrawn yet from all the cities and towns it occupied, we are going to see more of similar sights when they do.

 

[ZiprHead]

Looks like they are carrying out this plan.

What russia should do with Ukraine​

Timofey Sergeytsev, 03.04.2022

Back in April of last year we wrote about the inevitability of denazification of Ukraine. We don't need a Nazi, Banderite Ukraine, an enemy of russia and an instrument of the West to destroy russia. Today the issue of denazification has moved to the practical level.

Denazification is necessary when a significant part of the people - most likely its majority - is mastered and dragged by the Nazi regime into its politics. That is, when the hypothesis "the people are good - the government is bad" does not work. The recognition of this fact is the basis of the policy of denazification, of all its activities, and the fact itself constitutes its subject.

Ukraine is in precisely this situation. The fact that Ukrainian voters voted for "Poroshenko's peace" and "Zelensky's peace" should not be misleading - Ukrainians were quite satisfied with the shortest way to peace through a blitzkrieg, which the last two Ukrainian presidents hinted transparently at when they were elected. This very method of "appeasement" of internal anti-fascists - through total terror - was used in Odesa, Kharkiv, Dnipropetrovsk, Mariupol, and other russian cities. And it suited the average Ukrainian citizen quite well. Denazification is a set of measures in relation to the Nazified mass of the population, which technically cannot be directly punished as war criminals.

Nazis who have taken up arms must be destroyed on the battlefield to the maximum extent possible. No significant distinction should be made between the AFU [Armed Forces of Ukraine] and the so-called Natsbat (national battalions), as well as the territorial defense that joined these two types of military formations. All of them are equally complicit in outrageous cruelty against civilians, equally guilty of genocide of the russian people, and do not observe the laws and customs of war. War criminals and active Nazis should be examplarily and demonstrably punished. A total lustration must be carried out. Any organizations that have associated themselves with the practice of Nazism must be eliminated and banned. However, in addition to the top brass, a significant portion of the mass of the people who are passive Nazis, Nazi collaborators, are also guilty. They supported and indulged the Nazi power. Just punishment for this part of the population is only possible as the bearing of the inevitable burdens of a just war against the Nazi system, waged as gently and discreetly as possible with regards to civilians. The further denazification of this mass of the population consists in re-education, which is achieved by ideological repression (suppression) of Nazi attitudes and severe censorship: not only in the political sphere, but necessarily also in the sphere of culture and education. It was through culture and education that the deep mass Nazification of the population was prepared and carried out, consolidated by the promise of dividends from the Nazi regime's victory over russia, Nazi propaganda, internal violence and terror, and the eight-year war with the people of Donbas who rebelled against Ukrainian Nazism.

More of the lunacy here:

Day 40. What russia should do with Ukraine.

A guest post from russian state media.

cryptodrftng.substack.com

 

[Jayjay]

I don't think any Russian person, not even low-level officers, is going to face trial for these crimes.

The best thing we can do for Ukraine is to give them weapons to fight back. Russia is concentrating its forces in Donbas and has probably learned from its tactical mistakes, so the toughest battles are still ahead.

 

[ZiprHead]

"And So They Rode In Zinc" - Ukrainian Commander 'Shaman' On The Battle Of #HostomelGlass Factory​

Youtube video

Disturbing imagery in the link.

 

[ZiprHead]

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2022-04-04/russia-to-ask-u-n-security-council-again-to-discuss-bucha-provocations

The gall of these people. When caught red handed with war crimes, they blame it on Ukraine's "provocations" and forgeries. Not to mention that Russia hasn't withdrawn yet from all the cities and towns it occupied, we are going to see more of similar sights when they do.

Anything can be staged. We need third parties to confirm the accusations. Ukraine can lie as well as Russia, so confirmation is dreadfully important, which is why we try people in courts. If Ukrainians were bounded and shot execution style, that needs documentation for the hearings.

 

[Harry Bosch]

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2022-04-04/russia-to-ask-u-n-security-council-again-to-discuss-bucha-provocations

The gall of these people. When caught red handed with war crimes, they blame it on Ukraine's "provocations" and forgeries. Not to mention that Russia hasn't withdrawn yet from all the cities and towns it occupied, we are going to see more of similar sights when they do.

Well, remember that Ukrainians are very hostile to Russians. They are bunch of meanies to the Russians.