How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[barbos]

The air force will attack what?? The troops will be dispersed, there will not be anything to bomb.

Presidential Palace in Kiev.
why does US have Air Force? troops will be dispersed.

 

[laughing dog]

...it would have to be Ukrainians starting it by attacking Easter Ukraine.

Oh bullshit. It will just be Pootey falsely claiming "western aggression" again.
If, that is, he decides to proceed with his expansionist ambitions. Meanwhile, he is building up a whole catalog of stupid demands that nobody is going to listen to. If/when he attacks Ukraine, the fact that "the west" didn't bow to his ridiculous demands will be his excuse.

Does anyone in Russia really think it is Pootey's place to tell NATO what they may and may not do, or to tell other countries what they may or may not do in regard to NATO?

To get some perspective, line up all the countries and territories that Russia and its previous Soviet incarnation have attacked in its imperialist crusades, absorbed, tried to assimilate against their will etc.. Then compare that list with all the countries and territories NATO has similarly tried to forcibly contain under its control. Then you can see the utterly contemptible nature of Pootey's posturing.

You would be surprised but Russia are not as bad as US/GB in terms of invading.
For example it never invaded US or Great Britain. Whereas both Great Britain and US invaded Russia. GB invaded Russia multiple times, US at least once. Lots of Eastern European countries invaded Russia too, for no good reasons other than 1917 revolution/coup, which by the way was orchestrated by ..... Germany.
Lots of republics got into Russia by asking for protection, for example Georgia did so.
And virtually all Soviet republics were getting more money than they gave.
Especially baltic states and .... Georgia, which was most ridiculous republic in terms of economics. And commies let Finland go once and Baltic States ... twice.

So funny! Reaching back over 100 years to put up an excuse for today’s Russian aggression is a rhetorical tactic worthy of pootey himself.
Just out of curiosity though….
When did any of those countries annex Russia?

You asked for it. Don't blame me. Yes UK did invade Russia multiple times.
Poland is known to annex Russia in the past.

Elixir asked "when" which mean dates. Your response did not answer the question.

Poland did invade Russia - in the earlier 1600s. While I am not expert on this region, I know of no Polish annexations of Russia.

 

[Copernicus]

...
Poland did invade Russia - in the earlier 1600s. While I am not expert on this region, I know of no Polish annexations of Russia.

That's correct. Poland never annexed Russian territory, but barbos is likely referring to the rather obscure so-called  Polish-Muscovite War (1605-1618) in which  Sigismund IV Vasa was trying to take advantage of turmoil over succession to the throne in the early Tsardom of Russia. Sigismund was King of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania (which included modern Belarus and parts of Ukraine). The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was one of the largest, if not the largest, political entity in Europe at the time, and Russia was a lesser regional power, but an upcoming expansion of the old Grand Duchy of Muscovy. Sigismund led a "Polish Army" (likely made up mostly of soldiers from the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, not Poland) to occupy Moscow in 1610 and tried to have his son,  Władysław IV Vasa, crowned as Tsar. That didn't work out, partly because Sigismund was a fanatical Roman Catholic occupying the city that styled itself as the "Third Rome" and defender of Eastern Orthodox Christianity. Nevertheless, his son Władysław, continued to call himself the "Grand Duke of Muscovy" for the rest of his life.

There were a number of wars after that between Russia and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, almost all of which resulted in territorial gains for Russia--outright annexations of the territory of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Catherine the Great finished off the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, grabbing not just all of the Grand Duchy, but also a large chunk of Poland. (My grandfather was Polish, but born in the Russian Empire before WWI.) Catherine claimed that she was just restoring former Russian territory when it absorbed the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, but that was utterly false. Russia had never governed that territory.

Barbos is right that, if we go back far enough, just about every country has engaged in invasions of other countries and annexations of territory, but it is utterly absurd to argue that this is therefore normal or justifiable behavior in 2021. And it is certainly absurd to argue that this should be permissible behavior for any modern major power, whether the US or Russia. Nevertheless, if that is his argument, then we should also believe that the US would be perfectly justified in invading and annexing parts of Mexico or Canada. And China should be perfectly within its rights to take over the South China Sea. Maybe Japan should try to reclaim the Sakhalin Island from Russia. All the big powers should just start invading weaker neighbors and annexing their territory. Russia's invasion of Ukraine wouldn't look so bad then.

 

[barbos]

Copernicus, dude, Poland was a Soviet Union or EU of the early ages and Russia was on a receiving end of their crap. In the end everybody around agreed that Poland is too big and split it with Russia getting back what they had before it was annexed by Poland.
Just because Russia eventually won does not mean we are the bad guys. Bad guys (Poland) lost becasue they were pain in the ass for everyone.
Now you can argue of course that Russia is too big and should be split and that would be the real strategy of the West now. Russians simply disagree with that.
It's just too late for that. Not gonna work.

 

[Copernicus]

Copernicus, dude, Poland was a Soviet Union or EU of the early ages and Russia was on a receiving end of their crap. In the end everybody around agreed that Poland is too big and split it with Russia getting back what they had before it was annexed by Poland.
Just because Russia eventually won does not mean we are the bad guys. Bad guys (Poland) lost becasue they were pain in the ass for everyone.
Now you can argue of course that Russia is too big and should be split and that would be the real strategy of the West now. Russians simply disagree with that.
It's just too late for that. Not gonna work.

Barbos, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was nothing like the Soviet Union of the 20th century. It was a dominant force in the region in the 17th century, and it was regarded as an enlightened country, being one of the first constitutional governments in Europe.

Regardless, this is all ancient history and has nothing whatsoever to do with the current thread topic. You cannot justify Russian aggression in Ukraine in 2021 on the basis of how past generations behaved. We live in a world with nuclear weapons, and Putin seems to be issuing unacceptable ultimatums to other countries, some of which are nuclear powers. Nobody wins a nuclear war, no matter who is quickest to deploy their missiles. Russia is not threatened by NATO missiles, and Putin would know that, if he were not becoming completely unhinged and desperate at the drift of Ukraine away from his ideal of bringing it back into his concept of "historical Russia". He is playing a very dangerous game.

 

[barbos]

Soviet Union was enlightened too.

As a result, in the eastern territories a Polish (or Polonized) aristocracy dominated a peasantry whose great majority was neither Polish nor Catholic. Moreover, the decades of peace brought huge colonization efforts to the eastern territories (nowadays roughly western and central Ukraine),[228] heightening the tensions among nobles, Jews, Cossacks (traditionally Orthodox), Polish and Ruthenian peasants. The latter, deprived of their native protectors among the Ruthenian nobility, turned for protection to cossacks that facilitated violence that in the end broke the Commonwealth.

Ukrainians loved Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth so much that they rvolted at the first opportunity.

 

[barbos]

Regardless, this is all ancient history and has nothing whatsoever to do with the current thread topic. You cannot justify Russian aggression in Ukraine in 2021 on the basis of how past generations behaved. We live in a world with nuclear weapons, and Putin seems to be issuing unacceptable ultimatums to other countries, some of which are nuclear powers. Nobody wins a nuclear war, no matter who is quickest to deploy their missiles. Russia is not threatened by NATO missiles, and Putin would know that, if he were not becoming completely unhinged and desperate at the drift of Ukraine away from his ideal of bringing it back into his concept of "historical Russia". He is playing a very dangerous game

I heard you the first million times, no need to repeat this drivel.
Both Mearsheimer and I, disagree.

 

[barbos]

Ukrainian army shoots Javelin missile and ...... misses the target

Javelin is infrared homing.
Apparently well trained idiots did not know that and tried to shoot at cold target and
miracle of American engineering obliged and launched US$175,203 missile into nothing
Then they read the manual in english and created a fire and only after that target was hit with a second US$175,203 missile US tax dollars at work.

 

[Elixir]

...it would have to be Ukrainians starting it by attacking Easter Ukraine.

Oh bullshit. It will just be Pootey falsely claiming "western aggression" again.
If, that is, he decides to proceed with his expansionist ambitions. Meanwhile, he is building up a whole catalog of stupid demands that nobody is going to listen to. If/when he attacks Ukraine, the fact that "the west" didn't bow to his ridiculous demands will be his excuse.

Does anyone in Russia really think it is Pootey's place to tell NATO what they may and may not do, or to tell other countries what they may or may not do in regard to NATO?

To get some perspective, line up all the countries and territories that Russia and its previous Soviet incarnation have attacked in its imperialist crusades, absorbed, tried to assimilate against their will etc.. Then compare that list with all the countries and territories NATO has similarly tried to forcibly contain under its control. Then you can see the utterly contemptible nature of Pootey's posturing.

You would be surprised but Russia are not as bad as US/GB in terms of invading.
For example it never invaded US or Great Britain. Whereas both Great Britain and US invaded Russia. GB invaded Russia multiple times, US at least once. Lots of Eastern European countries invaded Russia too, for no good reasons other than 1917 revolution/coup, which by the way was orchestrated by ..... Germany.
Lots of republics got into Russia by asking for protection, for example Georgia did so.
And virtually all Soviet republics were getting more money than they gave.
Especially baltic states and .... Georgia, which was most ridiculous republic in terms of economics. And commies let Finland go once and Baltic States ... twice.

So funny! Reaching back over 100 years to put up an excuse for today’s Russian aggression is a rhetorical tactic worthy of pootey himself.
Just out of curiosity though….
When did any of those countries annex Russia?

You asked for it. Don't blame me. Yes, UK have invaded Russia multiple times.
Poland is known to annex Russia in the past. Poland was much much bigger than it is now.

Interesting. When was Russia part of Poland?

 

[barbos]

Interesting. When was Russia part of Poland?

In the past, obviously and not all Russia. But poles still remember these times when Poland was great and were kicking Russia's ass.
Turkey remembers when they were great too, and even dream about getting some land back. Interestingly enough turks and poles were kinda allies against Russia.

 

[laughing dog]

Interesting. When was Russia part of Poland?

In the past, obviously and not all Russia. But poles still remember these times when Poland was great and were kicking Russia's ass.
Turkey remembers when they were great too, and even dream about getting some land back. Interestingly enough turks and poles were kinda allies against Russia.

It is not possible for any living Pole to remember when Poland was great and kicking Russia's ass. They might have learned it from history books.

In any country, there are always nationalists who yearn for the "good old days" when their ethnicity and country was "great". That does justify aggression against any neighbors, especially when the "good old days" were centuries ago.

My reading of history is that Russia and the Russian people have had a centuries old inferiority complex.

 

[Elixir]

Ukrainian army shoots Javelin missile and ...... misses the target

Javelin is infrared homing.
Apparently well trained idiots did not know that and tried to shoot at cold target and
miracle of American engineering obliged and launched US$175,203 missile into nothing
Then they read the manual in english and created a fire and only after that target was hit with a second US$175,203 missile US tax dollars at work.

That’s nuthin. Trump wasted sixty something million pretending to retaliate against Russia.

 

[Copernicus]

Interesting. When was Russia part of Poland?

In the past, obviously and not all Russia. But poles still remember these times when Poland was great and were kicking Russia's ass.
Turkey remembers when they were great too, and even dream about getting some land back. Interestingly enough turks and poles were kinda allies against Russia.

Barbos knows almost nothing about that period, but he is working hard to study Wikipedia pages for whataboutery ammunition to try to justify an impending military invasion in 2021, not 1610. The Polish Vasa kings were more interested in Sweden, than the Duchy of Muscovy (aka Tsardom of Russia). But Moscow was briefly occupied by a Commonwealth army and an attempt was made to install the son of the Polish King, who had actually been invited to intervene by some disgruntled boyars. Those  Seven Boyars actually deposed Tsar Vasily Shuisky first and then invited the Poles in and Władysław IV Vasa to become tsar. The scheme didn't work. The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was really weakened by Swedish armies first, which was Poland's main adversary at the time.

Poles don't really resent Russia for the partition of Poland or even remember it any more than Russians really remember 1610. What Poles and other Eastern European countries really remember and resent were the decades that they spent under the Soviet yoke. That's why they all rushed to get themselves under NATO's nuclear umbrella and why Ukraine and Georgia would like to join NATO, as well.

 

[barbos]

Interesting. When was Russia part of Poland?

In the past, obviously and not all Russia. But poles still remember these times when Poland was great and were kicking Russia's ass.
Turkey remembers when they were great too, and even dream about getting some land back. Interestingly enough turks and poles were kinda allies against Russia.

Barbos knows almost nothing about that period, but he is working hard to study Wikipedia pages for whataboutery ammunition to try to justify an impending military invasion in 2021, not 1610. The Polish Vasa kings were more interested in Sweden, than the Duchy of Muscovy (aka Tsardom of Russia). But Moscow was briefly occupied by a Commonwealth army and an attempt was made to install the son of the Polish King, who had actually been invited to intervene by some disgruntled boyars. Those  Seven Boyars actually deposed Tsar Vasily Shuisky first and then invited the Poles in and Władysław IV Vasa to become tsar. The scheme didn't work. The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was really weakened by Swedish armies first, which was Poland's main adversary at the time.

Poles don't really resent Russia for the partition of Poland or even remember it any more than Russians really remember 1610. What Poles and other Eastern European countries really remember and resent were the decades that they spent under the Soviet yoke. That's why they all rushed to get themselves under NATO's nuclear umbrella and why Ukraine and Georgia would like to join NATO, as well.

Copernicus is projecting.

 

[barbos]

Ukrainian army shoots Javelin missile and ...... misses the target

Javelin is infrared homing.
Apparently well trained idiots did not know that and tried to shoot at cold target and
miracle of American engineering obliged and launched US$175,203 missile into nothing
Then they read the manual in english and created a fire and only after that target was hit with a second US$175,203 missile US tax dollars at work.

That’s nuthin. Trump wasted sixty something million pretending to retaliate against Russia.

You forgot Bush and his adventure in Iraq too.
The point was - soldiers are stupid.
Another point - engineers are stupid.

 

[Elixir]

Of course soldiers and engineers are stupid. They’re people. They’ll fight for Pootey, they’ll fight for Agent Orange, they’ll fight for Jesus, Allah or Roger Stone.
Not particularly relevant to the Russian aggression toward Ukraine, but yes, people are stupid.
“You’re projecting” isn’t a silver bullet protecting you from facts that Copernicus presents. You might try addressing just one of his points, if only to try to gain some badly needed cred.

 

[barbos]

I addressed it, I called it garbage.
Now, is anyone going to address Mearsheimer lecture?

 

[Elixir]

I addressed it, I called it garbage.
Now, is anyone going to address Mearsheimer lecture?

Ok. Your posts are garbage.
Mearsheimer is garbage.
That settles that, right.

ETA: also, you’re projecting.

 

[Copernicus]

I addressed it, I called it garbage.
Now, is anyone going to address Mearsheimer lecture?

You call lots of things garbage, but expressing a dislike without further comment is not addressing a post. It is just reacting to it.

Mearsheimer has been addressed over several posts, but you've actually not addressed those posts. You've only dismissed them with these kinds of reactive comments. Continuing to repeat a claim without seriously addressing or refuting arguments against it is known as an  ad nauseam fallacy.

 

[steve_bank]

From reporting and some online info Ujrain aND THE REGION HAVE AREAS OF ETHNIC rUSSIANS WHO FEE; LINKED TO rUSSIA.

Ukraine is yet another civil war. Like Syria, Iraq, Libya. and South Vietnam was never a state, it was arbitrary lines on a map over a treaty.

The idea that Ukraine will be a functioning democracy is about as probable as Libya or Iraq.

We are not learning from history. Democracy does not work unless there is a culture that will support it.

It is insanity to hear Biden say we will 'stand behind' both Taiwan and Ukraine. There are people in Taiwan who want to join china.