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How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

www.theguardian.com

‘Absolute evil’: inside the Russian prison camp where dozens of Ukrainians burned to death

Entrepreneur Anna Vorosheva accuses Moscow of murder after spending 100 days in the Olenivka detention centre
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
Screams from soldiers being tortured, overflowing cells, inhuman conditions, a regime of intimidation and murder. Inedible gruel, no communication with the outside world, and days marked off with a home-made calendar written on a box of tea.

This, according to a prisoner who was there, is what conditions are like inside Olenivka, the notorious detention centre outside Donetsk where dozens of Ukrainian soldiers burned to death in a horrific episode late last month while in Russian captivity.

Anna Vorosheva – a 45-year-old Ukrainian entrepreneur – gave a harrowing account to the Observer of her time inside the jail. She spent 100 days in Olenivka after being detained in mid-March at a checkpoint run by the pro-Russian Donetsk People’s Republic (DNR) in eastern Ukraine.
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Barbos said:
Jayjay said:
Russians had every reason to kill them. Your own politicians in the Duma called for the Azovstal defenders to be killed
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Yes, they should be tried and sentenced accordingly. Some should be executed.
There is no reason whatsoever to bomb perfectly fine building to achieve that.
Ukrainian regime, on the other hand, got tired of russian propaganda videos of azov regiment soldiers where they are telling everybody how happy they are in the captivity.
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Strange how none of the Russian guards were injured or killed.

BTW, see the post directly above.
 
ZiprHead said:
Barbos said:
Jayjay said:
Russians had every reason to kill them. Your own politicians in the Duma called for the Azovstal defenders to be killed
Click to expand...
Yes, they should be tried and sentenced accordingly. Some should be executed.
There is no reason whatsoever to bomb perfectly fine building to achieve that.
Ukrainian regime, on the other hand, got tired of russian propaganda videos of azov regiment soldiers where they are telling everybody how happy they are in the captivity.
Click to expand...
Strange how none of the Russian guards were injured or killed.

BTW, see the post directly above.
Click to expand...
This just shows how accurate the American weapons are. They killed only the prisoners, leaving guards, walls and even furniture almost untouched. Also the stealth technology is amazing, because locals didn't hear or see anything even hit the site.

:rolleyes:
 
Finland, Sweden sign to join NATO but need ratification | Reuters - July 5
NATO's 30 allies signed an accession protocol for Finland and Sweden on Tuesday, allowing them to join the nuclear-armed alliance once parliaments ratify the decision, the most significant expansion of the alliance since the 1990s.

The signing at NATO headquarters follows a deal with Turkey at last week's NATO summit in Madrid, where Ankara lifted its veto on the Nordic membership bids following assurances that both countries would do more to fight terrorism
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After being signed, it must be ratified by every NATO member.

When will Sweden and Finland join NATO? Tracking the ratification process across the Alliance. - Atlantic Council

Here are the 21 nations that have ratified SE's and FI's membership:
  • July 5: Canada, Denmark, Iceland
  • July 6: Estonia, UK
  • July 7: Albania
  • July 8: Germany
  • July 12: Netherlands, Luxembourg
  • July 13: Bulgaria
  • July 14: Latvia, Slovenia
  • July 15: Croatia
  • July 20: Lithuania, Belgium
  • July 21: Romania
  • July 27: N Macedonia, Montenegro
  • Aug 2: France
  • Aug 3: Italy, US
The 7 remaining ones: Spain, Portugal, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Greece, Turkey.

The article has assessments of 5 of them, and Spain and Portugal to come later.
  • Czechia, Slovakia: likely September, for when their legislatures return from summer break
  • Greece: by the end of the year, for that reason
  • Turkey: the PKK (Kurdistan Workers’ Party) rebels present a complication
  • Hungary: likely the last nation to ratify
The Hungarian position on support for Finnish and Swedish NATO membership is less than enthusiastic. Prime Minister Viktor Orbán will probably be the last to ratify. Yes, it’s his decision and his alone. However, in the end he will ratify.

When asked about the ratification, he argues that he has to “take Turkey’s sensitivities” into account. He is of the view that NATO’s open-door policy is a provocation to Russia and the West’s broken promise—which is bizarre given the fact that he was the one signing the Washington Treaty to bring Hungary into NATO in 1999. The timeline for ratification remains unclear.
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Spain and Portugal don't seem to have any big problems with SE's and FI's joining NATO, so by the end of the year, all but Hungary and Turkey are likely to ratify this joining.
 

From the first article, "You’ve seen tankies around. They’re the ones who believe that all the world’s evils are the product of imperialism and the only country capable of imperialism is the United States. It looks like this:"

Caitlin Johnstone on Twitter: "If you're on the side of the US empire on any issue you are on the wrong side. Doesn't mean the other side is always necessarily in the right, it just means a globe-spanning empire that's held together by lies, murder and tyranny will always be in the wrong. Yes it's that simple." / Twitter

Their theory is that NATO is threatening Russia by accepting ex-Soviet-Bloc and ex-Soviet nations, and that NATO should not have gone further east than the former East Germany. Strictly speaking, the alliance extends further east at its north and south ends, Norway and Turkey, but it's in between that's the problem.

Some tankies support Russian imperialism as a counter to Western imperialism:
Death to Western Imperialism on Twitter: "Russia should invade African countries that refuses# to host Russian bases or make security arrangements. Without Russia’s anti-imperialist efforts, the west would colonize Africa all throughout the 21st Century. (pic link)" / Twitter
 
Some more tankies:
Max Blumenthal on Twitter: ""...reports of a Russian massacre of scores of civilians in the town of Bucha also contain suspicious details suggesting a pattern of information manipulation aimed at triggering Western military intervention"" / Twitter

Michael Tracey on Twitter: "Unfortunately, Displaced Ukrainians are Calling for World War III (link)" / Twitter
noting
Unfortunately, Displaced Ukrainians are Calling for World War III

Glenn Greenwald on Twitter: "Noam Chomsky, in an interview this week, says "fortunately" there is "one Western statesman of stature" who is pushing for a diplomatic solution to the war in Ukraine rather than looking for ways to fuel and prolong it.
"His name is Donald J. Trump," Chomsky says.
WATCH: (vid link)" / Twitter
I've long been suspicious of Noam Chomsky for his apparent belief in exclusive US villainy, but this is going off the deep end.

Donald Trump a great leader???

Glenn Greenwald on Twitter: "Chomsky says he regards Trump as a deeply dangerous figure, yet he is "the one statesman in the West who has said it, and it's the right way out."
"Let's tell the truth," Chomsky says.
Full interview here: (link)" / Twitter
 
The first article identifies Jill Stein and Tulsi Gabbard as tankies.

The second article mentions Medea Benjamin on Twitter: "What does it say about progressive Democrats in Congress when the best person on Ukraine is Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene???"

Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene🇺🇸 on Twitter: "Ukraine is the MIC’s new Iraq wrapped up with a pretty little NATO bow, with a nuclear present inside.
A unwanted gift that will keep giving for far too long." / Twitter

Glenn Greenwald said that Ed Snowden was good on this issue, and also Sen. Rand Paul, Reps. Matt Gaetz and Thomas Massie.

Then this exchange:
M: "Europe really should be united from Lisboa to Vladiostok. The non Russian part of the European continent first needs to be thoroughly cleansed of toxic american influence."
ODKB / CSTO Support Group: "No. We don't want western gayrope. Only Eurasian civilization. Rest can burn in hell"
M: "As I said, it would first have to be cleansed thoroughly, morally, spiritually, culturally, psychologically etc."


Then this weird conspiracy theory:
Jackson Hinkle 🇺🇸 on Twitter: "The conditions of the manufactured Roe v. Wade crisis indicate this is a domestic color revolution aimed at inflating midterm voter turnout for the deep state protectorates in the Democratic Party." / Twitter

It must be a remarkable conspiracy, one involving oodles of Republican politicians and judges and anti-abortion activists.

Tankies have a conspiracy theory about the "color revolutions" of a decade or so ago, that they were somehow engineered by US intelligence agents to attack Russia.
 
Eventually Americans will loose interest.

Putin is setting a 'free referendum' in a controlled area on joining Russia.

If you are too young to remember this is exactly what the Cold War was about. In the day it was places like Poland and Lithuania. We see it in Hong Kong and potentially Taiwan.

Unfortunately in pursuit of profit and our unrericted use of wealth we trasfered American technology and manufacturing expertise whole sale to Communist China, our adversary.
 
Tankies liking Russia is ideologically odd, since Russia has been a capitalist country for over 30 years now, one dominated by capitalist oligarchs, and since Vladimir Putin supports belligerent authoritarian nationalism. Seems like Fascism all over again.

Their liking China is also odd, since it seems to be going much the same way: capitalism + belligerent authoritarian nationalism. To use an old Maoist insult, China has been a capitalist-roader country for the last 40 years or so. Fascism there also.

Like this reaction to Nancy Pelosi's recent visit to Taiwan:

No Cold War Britain on Twitter: "Nancy Pelosi’s visit to Taiwan is needlessly provocative and dangerous, and jeopardises the possibility of good faith relations and the maintenance of peace.
As working people face an economic crisis and climate breakdown we desperately need international cooperation." / Twitter
then
Fiona Edwards - #NoToNATO on Twitter: "Nancy Pelosi's visit to Taiwan is quite simply war-mongering.
The US is seriously escalating it's aggression against China - a major threat to world peace.
We need global cooperation NOT WAR!" / Twitter

Liz for Leader on Twitter: "Hong Kong was for many years a bastion of liberty and paragon of prosperity.
The UK won’t rest until Hong Kong has its freedoms back.
The world is watching how China behaves
Read my piece in @TheTimes 👇 (link)" / Twitter
Liz Truss: UK won’t rest until Hong Kong has its freedoms back | Comment | The Times

Then this tankie response:
Fiona Edwards - #NoToNATO on Twitter: "Absolutely absurd and offensive from the British Foreign Secretary. Breath-taking arrogance.
Britain colonised Hong Kong. There was no "democracy" or respect for "human rights" in the 150 years of British colonial rule over Hong Kong." / Twitter

Fiona Edwards - #NoToNATO on Twitter: "No "genocide" of the Uyghurs is taking place in China. Actually the opposite is happening. The Uyghur population has increased (they were not subject to the "one child policy"). No "cultural genocide" either. Xinjiang has 24,000 mosques, there are many Uyghur restaurants etc." / Twitter

samirah on Twitter: "Nancy Pelosi is evil. (pic link)" / Twitter
with a picture of her and the Dalai Lama embracing each other.

Jackson Hinkle 🇺🇸 on Twitter: "To all the conservatives who think Taiwan is a country & want war with China: You are doing Soros’ dirty work, congratulations." / Twitter

Roman 🇮🇹 on Twitter: "@RevisionistsSay I'm a Fascist but I support modern China. They fight against liberalism, LGBT propaganda for children, they allow net zero immigration. The Chinese corporatist system is very similar to the Italian one in the 1930s. CCP was evil when Mao was there. Not anymore." / Twitter

Revolutionary Blackout Network🥋 on Twitter: "Bernie Sanders voted to expand NATO
U.S. progressives are tools of the national security state and endless war" / Twitter
then
Revolutionary Blackout Network🥋 on Twitter: "Compare Bernie and AOC to left leaders in other countries
The Democratic Party is where movements go to die (pix link)" / Twitter
with screencaps of: "Brazil's Lula says Zelenskiy 'as responsible as Putin' for Ukraine war" and "Jeremy Corbyn urges west to stop arming Ukraine"

Glenn Greenwald on Twitter: "Bernie doesn't even pretend any more to have anything resembling a left-wing foreign policy or any minimal divergence from the neocon-driven Dem Party's foreign policy dogma.
Opposing NATO expansion was long a mainstream liberal view. Now only Hawley & Paul will get near it:" / Twitter
Senators Josh Hawley (voted no) and Rand Paul (voted present).
 
Biden signs documents of U.S. support for Sweden, Finland to join NATO | Reuters
Vladimir Putin is getting "exactly what he did not want," President Biden said, saying that instead of the Finlandization of NATO, we are getting the NATOization of Finland, and also Sweden.

The vote was a sharp contrast with some rhetoric in Washington during the administration of former Republican President Donald Trump, who pursued an "America First" foreign policy and criticized NATO allies who failed to reach defense spending targets.
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Biden formalizes US support for Finland, Sweden joining NATO | AP News
“In seeking to join NATO, Finland and Sweden are making a sacred commitment that an attack against one is an attack against all,” Biden said at the signing as he called the partnership the “indispensable alliance.”
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He urged the other nations to finish the ratification process “as quickly as possible,” and he said that the near-unanimous Senate vote showed the world that “the United States of America can still do big things.”

U.S. Signs Measures Giving Approval to Sweden and Finland’s Bids to Join NATO - The New York Times
Only the Senate has the power to approve treaties, but last month, the House passed a nonbinding resolution in support of Finland and Sweden’s accession to NATO in a lopsided vote of 394 to 18.

...
“Sweden and Finland have strong Democratic institutions, strong militaries and strong and transparent economies,” Mr. Biden said. “They’ll meet every NATO requirement — we’re confident of that.”
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That resolution:
H.Res.1130 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): Expressing support for the sovereign decision of Finland and Sweden to apply to join the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) as well as calling on all members of NATO to ratify the protocols of accession swiftly. | Congress.gov | Library of Congress
with this vote:
Yes: D 218, R 176, ttl 394
No: R 18, ttl 18
Not Voting: D 2, R 17, ttl 19

Among the "no" voters were Madison Cawthorn, Lauren Boebert, Andy Biggs, Matt Gaetz, and MTG
 
ZiprHead said:
www.theguardian.com

‘Absolute evil’: inside the Russian prison camp where dozens of Ukrainians burned to death

Entrepreneur Anna Vorosheva accuses Moscow of murder after spending 100 days in the Olenivka detention centre
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
Screams from soldiers being tortured, overflowing cells, inhuman conditions, a regime of intimidation and murder. Inedible gruel, no communication with the outside world, and days marked off with a home-made calendar written on a box of tea.

This, according to a prisoner who was there, is what conditions are like inside Olenivka, the notorious detention centre outside Donetsk where dozens of Ukrainian soldiers burned to death in a horrific episode late last month while in Russian captivity.

Anna Vorosheva – a 45-year-old Ukrainian entrepreneur – gave a harrowing account to the Observer of her time inside the jail. She spent 100 days in Olenivka after being detained in mid-March at a checkpoint run by the pro-Russian Donetsk People’s Republic (DNR) in eastern Ukraine.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
How do you know it's not a lie? And it is a lie.
 
Oops, I omitted some NATO members from my earlier post, It's 23 that have ratified so far.
  • July 5: Canada, Denmark, Iceland, Norway
  • July 6: Estonia, UK
  • July 7: Albania
  • July 8: Germany
  • July 12: Netherlands, Luxembourg
  • July 13: Bulgaria
  • July 14: Latvia, Slovenia
  • July 15: Croatia
  • July 20: Poland, Lithuania, Belgium
  • July 21: Romania
  • July 27: N Macedonia, Montenegro
  • Aug 2: France
  • Aug 3: Italy, US
Finland & Sweden Accession | NATO PA

The 7 remaining ones: Spain, Portugal, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, Greece, Turkey.

Let's see how long the border is between NATO and Russia.
  • Finland: 1340 km
  • Estonia: 294 km
  • Latvia: 214 km, (B) 173 km
  • Lithuania: (K) 297 km, (B) 679 km
  • Poland: (K) 232 km, (B) 418 km, (U) 535 km
  • Slovakia: (U) 97 km
  • Hungary: (U) 135 km
  • Romania: (U) 649 km, (M) 681 km
K = Kaliningrad Oblast (Russia), B = Belarus, U = Ukraine, M = Moldova

So the total NATO-Russia border will become twice as long.
 
Scandal in France, apparently some of the phone conversations between Macron and Putin just before Special Military Operation were leaked. According to them, Macron was not aware about Minsk Agreement and this is weird, but reportedly, he knew about Kiev regime plans on invading DNR/LNR and told Putin no to react to it :)
Instead Putin recognized these republics and started SMO.
 
Last edited:
barbos said:
Scandal in France, apparently some of the phone conversations between Macron and Putin just before Special Military Operation were leaked. According to them, Macron was not aware about Minsk Agreement and this is weird, but reportedly, he knew about Kiev regime plans on invading DNR/LNR and told Putin no to react to it :)
Instead Putin recognized these republics and started SMO.
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Why do you think that is a scandal? Where is the scandal?
 
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