How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[ZiprHead]

That's gonna leave a mark.

 

[ZiprHead]

 

[ZiprHead]

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

U.S. Drone Could Be Behind Crimea Bridge Explosion

Analysis by independent military experts note discrepancies in the Kremlin's version of events, including that there was no hole visible in the road surface where the truck exploded, that the truck should have been inspected before crossing the bridge, and that videos of the explosion appear to show multiple explosions, including one that appears to be detonated from below the bridge.

Ukraine has such devices via the U.S. Maybe there were multiple detonations.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán yesterday called for direct talks between the U.S. and Russia, saying that only former president Trump could end the war in Ukraine. Speaking at a panel discussion in Berlin, Orbán said President Biden had gone “too far” in calling Putin a war criminal and saying in March that he “cannot remain in power.” “That would make it very hard for [Biden] to make peace,” Orbán said. “This is going to sound brutal, but hope for peace goes by the name of Donald Trump.” Guy Chazan and Marton Dunal report for the Financial Times.

The cuckoo for cocoa puffs crowd should latch on to this one.

 

[bilby]

Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán yesterday called for direct talks between the U.S. and Russia, saying that only former president Trump could end the war in Ukraine. Speaking at a panel discussion in Berlin, Orbán said President Biden had gone “too far” in calling Putin a war criminal and saying in March that he “cannot remain in power.” “That would make it very hard for [Biden] to make peace,” Orbán said. “This is going to sound brutal, but hope for peace goes by the name of Donald Trump.” Guy Chazan and Marton Dunal report for the Financial Times.

The cuckoo for cocoa puffs crowd should latch on to this one.

Orbán has it wrong; If he wants talks between the US and Russia, with Trump representing the US, he should want Dmitry Medvedev to represent Russia.

And it shouldn't be Orbán calling for this, he should leave it to the guy in charge of Hungary, Gyula Horn.

Or perhaps somebody should tell him that once someone is replaced as head of state, they're no longer a spokesperson for their nation, unless they are specifically assigned to a new official position.

The good news is that Orbán joins the growing ranks of people who believe that Trump won the US Presidency in both 2016 and 2020 and is therefore ineligible to run in 2024.

 

[Oleg]

Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán yesterday called for direct talks between the U.S. and Russia, saying that only former president Trump could end the war in Ukraine. Speaking at a panel discussion in Berlin, Orbán said President Biden had gone “too far” in calling Putin a war criminal and saying in March that he “cannot remain in power.” “That would make it very hard for [Biden] to make peace,” Orbán said. “This is going to sound brutal, but hope for peace goes by the name of Donald Trump.” Guy Chazan and Marton Dunal report for the Financial Times.

The cuckoo for cocoa puffs crowd should latch on to this one.

I dunno. He's saying this is a proxy war between the US and Russia. Isn't it? And Trump did this:

The Abraham Accords - United States Department of State

The Abraham Accords Declaration We, the undersigned, recognize the importance of maintaining and strengthening peace in the Middle East and around the world based on mutual understanding and coexistence, as well as respect for human dignity and freedom, including religious freedom. We encourage...

www.state.gov

 

[bilby]

He's saying this is a proxy war between the US and Russia. Isn't it?

No, it's not. The US is peripherally involved, in that after Russia attacked Ukraine, the US was one of the largest (but far from the only) nations to throw their support behind Ukraine.

This is a straightforward war between Ukraine and Russia, with both sides enlisting assistance from other countries. Ukraine is fortunate enough to have the US on her team, while Russia is stuck with such military and economic powerhouses as Iran. Sucks to be Vlad-No-Mates.

Russia would like to pretend that its opponent is the US or NATO, but that's just an attempt to rationalise the fact that their supposedly fearsome military machine is getting its arses kicked by a bunch of Ukrainian farm boys.

 

[Oleg]

Russia would like to pretend that its opponent is the US or NATO, but that's just an attempt to rationalise the fact that their supposedly fearsome military machine is getting its arses kicked by a bunch of Ukrainian farm boys.

That would not have happened without the US showering Ukraine with advanced weapons and many billions of Sacagaweas. 1/2 the US stockpile of Javelins went to Ukraine. The US also provides vast intel.

 

[bilby]

Russia would like to pretend that its opponent is the US or NATO, but that's just an attempt to rationalise the fact that their supposedly fearsome military machine is getting its arses kicked by a bunch of Ukrainian farm boys.

That would not have happened without the US showering Ukraine with advanced weapons and many billions of Sacagaweas. 1/2 the US stockpile of Javelins went to Ukraine. The US also provides vast intel.

Yeah, no shit.

Vlad probably shouldn't have picked a fight with a little guy he thought he could easily beat, without first checking that the little guy didn't have some much bigger friends.

Still, he has Iran to supply him with second-rate drones. As I said, it sucks to be Vlad-No-Mates.

It's still not a proxy war though. Ukraine isn't fighting on behalf of the USA, they are fighting on behalf of Ukraine.

 

[Oleg]

It's still not a proxy war though. Ukraine isn't fighting on behalf of the USA, they are fighting on behalf of Ukraine.

And the Mujahideen were fighting for Afganistan.

 

[laughing dog]

Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán yesterday called for direct talks between the U.S. and Russia, saying that only former president Trump could end the war in Ukraine. Speaking at a panel discussion in Berlin, Orbán said President Biden had gone “too far” in calling Putin a war criminal and saying in March that he “cannot remain in power.” “That would make it very hard for [Biden] to make peace,” Orbán said. “This is going to sound brutal, but hope for peace goes by the name of Donald Trump.” Guy Chazan and Marton Dunal report for the Financial Times.

The cuckoo for cocoa puffs crowd should latch on to this one.

I dunno.

I agree with you. If Mr. Trump had been re-elected, there would be no war between Ukraine and Russia by now. Russia would have invaded Ukraine and the Mr. Trump would have left Ukraine out to dry. Without our help, Ukraine would have folded by now.

 

[Oleg]

Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán yesterday called for direct talks between the U.S. and Russia, saying that only former president Trump could end the war in Ukraine. Speaking at a panel discussion in Berlin, Orbán said President Biden had gone “too far” in calling Putin a war criminal and saying in March that he “cannot remain in power.” “That would make it very hard for [Biden] to make peace,” Orbán said. “This is going to sound brutal, but hope for peace goes by the name of Donald Trump.” Guy Chazan and Marton Dunal report for the Financial Times.

The cuckoo for cocoa puffs crowd should latch on to this one.

I dunno.

I agree with you. If Mr. Trump had been re-elected, there would be no war between Ukraine and Russia by now. Russia would have invaded Ukraine and the Mr. Trump would have left Ukraine out to dry. Without our help, Ukraine would have folded by now.

If Trump was Russia's puppet, why didn't it invade while he was in office? Wouldn't that have made a lot more sense?

 

[Hermit]

Russia would like to pretend that its opponent is the US or NATO, but that's just an attempt to rationalise the fact that their supposedly fearsome military machine is getting its arses kicked by a bunch of Ukrainian farm boys.

That would not have happened without the US showering Ukraine with advanced weapons and many billions of Sacagaweas. 1/2 the US stockpile of Javelins went to Ukraine. The US also provides vast intel.

Yeah, no shit.

Vlad probably shouldn't have picked a fight with a little guy he thought he could easily beat, without first checking that the little guy didn't have some much bigger friends.

Still, he has Iran to supply him with second-rate drones. As I said, it sucks to be Vlad-No-Mates.

It's still not a proxy war though. Ukraine isn't fighting on behalf of the USA, they are fighting on behalf of Ukraine.

Correct about Ukraine fighting on behalf of Ukraine rather than the USA. The Mujahideen were fighting on behalf of Afghanistan rather than the USA. The US turned both wars into proxy wars. In both cases helping out an oppressed people with military hardware was a pretext for getting at a more powerful rival.

 

[Hermit]

Lol, yeah, appeasement has worked so well in the past...

 

[zorq]

If Trump was Russia's puppet, why didn't it invade while he was in office? Wouldn't that have made a lot more sense?

You say this like you think anything Putin does makes a ton of sense. But there are a lot of factors that likely influenced Putin. Nordstream 2 was likely one of them. Thinking he could trick Ukraine into advancing Minsk II is another. Destabilizing the US is likely another. Maybe Putin thought Trump wouldn't get re-elected if the world watched Trump bow and scrape before Putin after he showed himself to be a complete warmonger, so he held off hoping that Trump would get the win in 2020.

Trump MAY have been a factor, in Putin's timeline, but maybe, just maybe, you should consider that the world doesn't actually revolve around Trump.

 

[Patooka]

If Trump was Russia's puppet, why didn't it invade while he was in office? Wouldn't that have made a lot more sense?

Say what you will about Q-tards, they all have the exact same talking points because I have lost count how many times I've heard this argument. It's right up there with, "If you don't think the election was stolen, how do you explain Biden winning when he spent the entire time in his basement" as asinine questions.

So here's the reason; Putin didn't invade when Trump was in power because he didn't need to. In fact, Trump was doing such a good job destabilising NATO, Putin was reluctant to do anything to rock the boat. If Trump was re-elected, the US would have left NATO, NATO would have dissolved as a result an then he would have invaded Ukraine. He was totally fine delaying the invasion of Ukraine if there was a possibility of NATO being taken out of the equation.

And let's be clear; if that happened you'd be quoting Tucker Carlson verbatim on how much of a genius strategy that would be.

 

[Swammerdami]

If Trump was Russia's puppet, why didn't it invade while he was in office? Wouldn't that have made a lot more sense?

These questions over-simplify the complex game of geopolitics. Putin and his top assets may not be playing 3-D chess, but they aren't just chickens strutting about the board, kicking over pieces at random.

And by forging ties to the murderous Saudi regime — strategic adversary of the Putin-Shia bloc — the Trump-Kushner crime family has reduced its dependence on Russian finance. Finally, Putin's kompromat against Trump diminishes in value among Trump's other legal woes.

If Trump was Russia's puppet, why didn't it invade while he was in office? Wouldn't that have made a lot more sense?

You say this like you think anything Putin does makes a ton of sense. But there are a lot of factors that likely influenced Putin. Nordstream 2 was likely one of them. Thinking he could trick Ukraine into advancing Minsk II is another. Destabilizing the US is likely another. Maybe Putin thought Trump wouldn't get re-elected if the world watched Trump bow and scrape before Putin after he showed himself to be a complete warmonger, so he held off hoping that Trump would get the win in 2020.

Trump MAY have been a factor, in Putin's timeline, but maybe, just maybe, you should consider that the world doesn't actually revolve around Trump.

Yes, even Trumpists and QOPAnoners would recognize a war of naked aggression. Trump would have been forced to either side with NATO, or to let his pro-Putin sycophancy become obvious even to the MAGA base. Putin was wise to wait until Trump's handlers would not be faced with such a dilemma.

If Trump was Russia's puppet, why didn't it invade while he was in office? Wouldn't that have made a lot more sense?

Say what you will about Q-tards, they all have the exact same talking points because I have lost count how many times I've heard this argument. It's right up there with, "If you don't think the election was stolen, how do you explain Biden winning when he spent the entire time in his basement" as asinine questions.

So here's the reason; Putin didn't invade when Trump was in power because he didn't need to. In fact, Trump was doing such a good job destabilising NATO, Putin was reluctant to do anything to rock the boat. If Trump was re-elected, the US would have left NATO, NATO would have dissolved as a result an then he would have invaded Ukraine. He was totally fine delaying the invasion of Ukraine if there was a possibility of NATO being taken out of the equation.

And let's be clear; if that happened you'd be quoting Tucker Carlson verbatim on how much of a genius strategy that would be.

It certainly makes sense that Putin would hope to weaken Biden, and not to weaken his orange-flavored asset.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Ukrainian Armed Forces 2014 to Present.
A summation article from Univision written 29 Mar, 2022.

I posited early in this thread, Putin seen taking Ukraine as a now or never proposition. This because he knew Ukraine was building professional armed forces. This article supports that.

Why didn’t Putin attack during the Trump administration? Because Trump is an unknown. Undisciplined and prone to be guided by his emotions. That’s too much of a wildcard. No world leader with an understanding of US military might was going to get in a pissing contest with the Toddler in Chief.
The US increased military support after Obama left office but I’m confident Trump had little to do with it. He deferred to McMaster and Mattis. I would say, in 2017, if unlabeled, Trump couldn’t find Ukraine on a map. And still couldn’t because he just doesn’t care.
Trump pissed and moaned about NATO countries not kicking in their fair share, and rightly so. German armed forces especially were and still are shit, and given their economy, they’ve no right.

Proxy war? Remember, our first thought was to give Zelensky a ride out of Ukraine. But with the incompetence the Russian army displayed in grand humiliating fashion in trying to take Kyiv, oh how could we not lend a hand? If you want to call helping the underdog fight back against a bully a proxy war. Okay.

"Never, please, never tell us again that our army does not meet NATO standards. We have shown what our standards are capable of. And how much we can give to the common security in Europe and the world."
-Volodymyr Zelensky

Better than any other European country. They should be begging for Ukraine to join.

 

[Hermit]

...even Trumpists and QOPAnoners would recognize a war of naked aggression.

You're an incorrigible optimist. I anticipate the following responses:

• It is not an act of aggression because Russia was provoked into defending itself by NATO's continuous encroachment on its borders.
• The special military operation is not an act of aggression because Ukraine is rightfully an integral part of Russia since Tsarist times.
• US interference with the conflict between Russia and Ukraine will ultimately lead to nuclear war.

Don't bother listing reasons why they are wrong. I disagree with all of them.