How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[barbos]

It's not a legal matter.

Don't tell that to lawyers.

 

[barbos]

The fact that you keep bringing up this one airborne attack in Donetsk that happens 8 years ago shows that it doesn't happen often

It was happening pretty much daily for 8 years - artillery.

Artillery fire on both sides. Which had subsided a lot.

Donetsk was under "russian" control.
And generally speaking, ukro-regime was terrorizing people whereas "pro-russian" separatists were "terrorizing" nazis which were shelling Donetsk.
You are supporting terrorists and nazis.

 

[Jayjay]

The fact that you keep bringing up this one airborne attack in Donetsk that happens 8 years ago shows that it doesn't happen often

It was happening pretty much daily for 8 years - artillery.

Artillery fire on both sides. Which had subsided a lot.

Donetsk was under "russian" control.

Yes, and they were firing potshots to the other side. Ukraine shoots, pro-Russian rebels retaliate. And vice versa.

People lived on both sides of the border. It's not that Donetsk city is somehow full of civilians, and right outside is a wasteland only occupied by Ukrainian military.

And generally speaking, ukro-regime was terrorizing people whereas "pro-russian" separatists were "terrorizing" nazis which were shelling Donetsk.
You are supporting terrorists and nazis.

We've gone through this nazi nonsense many times already. There were nazis or nazi sympathizers fighting on both sides. And artillery shells don't distinguish people based on their political beliefs.

However, "both sides" argument does fall apart because it was Russia who illegally invaded Ukraine, and not the other way around. So Russia is ultimately at least partially to blame even for the collateral damage caused by Ukraine.

 

[Patooka]

Show me one piece of evidence that Ukraine is using "western operators", rather than just having been trained to use the equipment?

LOL. Last time I checked you needed 6 months to learn how to operate HIMARS.
Poles are operating it.
Ukrainians complained that they had to use google fucking translate to read instructions for these useless anti-tank systems in the early days of war.

And here you want to translate HIMARS to russian and then teach ukrainians to use them in a matter of weeks.

6 months to teach a basic recruit to use HIMARS. However, they were teaching people who already knew how to put artillery on target, the only training needed was on how the HIMARS system itself worked--and that's much less training. Especially as HIMARS uses a sealed-pod system, the people using them do not need to know anything about the missiles themselves, merely how to load the pods onto the launcher.

6 months! and it has to be native speaker, not some random ukrainian idiot.
Ukraine/Russia are not Netherlands, they barely speak english.

Another racist caricature that Russians have of Ukrainians. No wonder they don't like you.

Fact is that Ukrainian military, while starting with the same Soviet background as Russia, has been making great strides in recent years. They've been training with NATO troops and participated in joint operations abroad. Not all of them, but certainly some have had prior contact with American and other trainers, and they don't have to pick "some random idiot" but can just take the ones who know artillery, and can speak English.

It's operated by poles, and the ukrainian millitary which was making great strides is mostly dead now. And no, they never spoke english at the level necessary to read these manuals, and they are dead or captured.

Poles are operating it, or even americans, again according to us military colonel and former White House adviser.

Ah, the good old "I have a girlfriend you wouldn't know her she goes to a different school" argument. Pathetic.

 

[bilby]

Things are actually great.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Those who hate Russia the most are the ones who embody everything they claim to hate about it: they’re all pro-war, pro-censorship, pro-propaganda, pro-trolling operations, and support Ukraine in banning political parties and opposition media. They are what they claim to hate. Meanwhile those of us who oppose those things are told to ‘move to Russia,’ even though we’re the ones advocating the supposed ‘western values’ they claim to support while they’re doing everything they can to undermine them. They should move to Russia. … Western propaganda means people always oppose the last war but not the current war. The US provoking and sustaining its Ukraine proxy war is no more ethical than its invading of Iraq; it just looks that way due to propaganda. Ukraine isn’t the good war, it’s just the current war.

Always Opposing The Last War But Not The Current One: Notes From The Edge Of The Narrative Matrix

My personal suspicion is that Democrats have been mad at Russia ever since they abandoned communism in 1991.

 

[crazyfingers]

My personal suspicion is that Democrats have been mad at Russia ever since they abandoned communism in 1991.

Well that's a pretty wackizoid opinion you have there. Where did you find it? On the underside of your shoe?

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

You called it "wackizoid" but didn't deny it.

 

[crazyfingers]

You called it "wackizoid" but didn't deny it.

I think that your comment is fucking stupid and anyone not looking to play games would know that. Grow up.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

You still didn't say it is wrong though.

 

[crazyfingers]

You still didn't say it is wrong though.

And you're still playing stupid games I see. Of course it's wrong for the vast majority of democrats as I'd hope it would be wrong for the vast majority of libertarians. Are you willing to speak for all libertarians? Every single one of them? If not then knock off your stupid games and grow up. And I'm not even registered democrat.

I'd think that it would be clear that "Fucking Stupid" and "Wrong" are pretty much the same thing.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I'd think that it would be clear that "Fucking Stupid" and "Wrong" are pretty much the same thing.

Not when we are talking about Democrats.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

You still didn't say it is wrong though.

I'm Superman, son of Bigfoot.


waiting


waiting


See? No one says I'm wrong.

 

[lpetrich]

Those who hate Russia the most are the ones who embody everything they claim to hate about it: they’re all pro-war, pro-censorship, pro-propaganda, pro-trolling operations, and support Ukraine in banning political parties and opposition media. They are what they claim to hate. ...

Always Opposing The Last War But Not The Current One: Notes From The Edge Of The Narrative Matrix

I read it. Tankie nonsense. The sort of thing that annoys me about Noam Chomsky's foreign-policy positions.

My personal suspicion is that Democrats have been mad at Russia ever since they abandoned communism in 1991.

Far-right bigoted nonsense.

 

[TV and credit cards]

There are plenty of former US millitary people willing to get paid $2000/day to go to Ukraine to run HIMARS.
I really don't understand this fixation on who operates these HIMARS systems.

Is it because you know that HIMARS are being used for terrorism?

I’d like to know where you are getting your information from regarding HIMARS, particularly the length of time it takes to train to operate.
I see a box launcher on a truck. What is it you think they need to learn that takes so long? I’m not familiar with this particular box launcher but I did train to be a tech on another: Rolling Airframe Missile System. It’s just a box launcher. There are many just like it but that one was mine. I’d have to check my records but I think the entire technician’s course was six weeks.
Again, I am not familiar with this particular system but I’m confident in saying they do not fail. There is no test equipment. Not so much as a multimeter. The missiles are op tested before they leave the depot. There is no field maintenance. Not like it would ever be needed. They do not fail. They use the most robust components built to US military specs. They are designed to be operated by ham-handed guys with high school educations.
No one is tweaking potentiometers and staring at o-scopes.

 

[Jayjay]

There are plenty of former US millitary people willing to get paid $2000/day to go to Ukraine to run HIMARS.
I really don't understand this fixation on who operates these HIMARS systems.

Is it because you know that HIMARS are being used for terrorism?

I’d like to know where you are getting your information from regarding HIMARS, particularly the length of time it takes to train to operate.
I see a box launcher on a truck. What is it you think they need to learn that takes so long? I’m not familiar with this particular box launcher but I did train to be a tech on another: Rolling Airframe Missile System. It’s just a box launcher. There are many just like it but that one was mine. I’d have to check my records but I think the entire technician’s course was six weeks.
Again, I am not familiar with this particular system but I’m confident in saying they do not fail. There is no test equipment. Not so much as a multimeter. The missiles are op tested before they leave the depot. There is no field maintenance. Not like it would ever be needed. They do not fail. They use the most robust components built to US military specs. They are designed to be operated by ham-handed guys with high school educations.
No one is tweaking potentiometers and staring at o-scopes.

I did some googling, and apparently the Ukrainian training time was 3 weeks:

US begins training Ukrainians on HIMARS rocket artillery systems

Ukrainian Soldiers have begun training on the first U.S.-made rocket artillery systems at an undisclosed location outside of the country, according to a senior U.S. defense official. Citing a senior defense official, ABC reporter Matt Seyler reported that Ukrainian forces have begun training on...

defence-blog.com

Citing a senior defense official, ABC reporter Matt Seyler reported that Ukrainian forces have begun training on the HIMARS being sent by the U.S.

“U.S. trainers are working with the Ukrainians at an undisclosed location outside of the country. The first round of training is expected to take about 3 weeks,” Seyler said on Twitter.

Even the USMC training is only 7.5 half weeks from entry level to qualified HIMARS crewman according to this page:

Sections | United States Marine Corps Detachment (USMC) | Fort Sill | Oklahoma | Fires Center of Excellence

ADA is a combat arms branch the protects the military, international allies, and geopolitical assets from aerial attack, missile attack, and surveillance.

sill-www.army.mil

The Marine Corps Cannon Crewman Course is five weeks, 25 training days. Designed to train entry level Marines to standard in 1000 level tasks (Cannoneer), and familiarizes them with select 2000 level tasks (Gunner/A-Gunner), in accordance with NAVMC 3500.7, Artillery Training and Readiness Manual.

The Marine Corps HIMARS Crewman Course is two and a half weeks, 13 training days. This is a follow on course to train 0811s to standard in 1000 level tasks (HIMARS Crewman), and familiarizes them with select 2000 level tasks (HIMARS Gunner), in accordance with NAVMC 3500.7, Artillery Training and Readiness Manual. Select cannoneers may earn the MOS designator 0814 upon completion of this course to serve with either HIMARS battalion, 5th Bn, 11th Marines or 2nd Bn, 14th Marines.

Even the advanced program it's only 3 months total. Presumably, the candidates Ukraine had were not entry-level (though not US Marine Core either) but had prior artillery crew experience. Also during war you can cut some corners probably. But the point is that it's not the "6 months" that barbos keeps arguing. And if he's wrong about that (as he has been wrong about many other things in the past), why believe his unbacked assertion about the launchers being operated by Poles? Or anything else he's saying?

 

[Harry Bosch]

Those who hate Russia the most are the ones who embody everything they claim to hate about it: they’re all pro-war, pro-censorship, pro-propaganda, pro-trolling operations, and support Ukraine in banning political parties and opposition media. They are what they claim to hate. Meanwhile those of us who oppose those things are told to ‘move to Russia,’ even though we’re the ones advocating the supposed ‘western values’ they claim to support while they’re doing everything they can to undermine them. They should move to Russia. … Western propaganda means people always oppose the last war but not the current war. The US provoking and sustaining its Ukraine proxy war is no more ethical than its invading of Iraq; it just looks that way due to propaganda. Ukraine isn’t the good war, it’s just the current war.

Always Opposing The Last War But Not The Current One: Notes From The Edge Of The Narrative Matrix

My personal suspicion is that Democrats have been mad at Russia ever since they abandoned communism in 1991.

From the article: The US provoking and sustaining its Ukraine proxy war is no more ethical than its invading of Iraq; it just looks that way due to propaganda. Ukraine isn’t the good war, it’s just the current war. That's just bizzaro. We trying to help a country defend itself. Here's the big difference, if Ukraine loses, Russia will take their land and kill most of their government and people that supported Ukraine. Genocide and torture. If Ukraine wins, they retain their land, they rule themselves, and Russian troops return home. Do you see the fucking difference? If you support Russia, you are an imperialist. Pure and simple. Finally, Ukraine and Iraq invasions are totally different. But I'll bite. How about this: the US shouldn't have invaded Iraq and Russia shouldn't have invaded Ukraine. No more fucking invasions.

 

[Ford]

If you support Russia, you are an imperialist. Pure and simple.

I think it is important to note that Putin is not actually trying to re-establish the Soviet Union. He's not saying "give us another chance to try the whole communism thing that fell apart 3 decades ago."

He's trying to rebuild the Russian empire. The one that Ivan "The Terrible" tried to establish, but failed. The one that Peter "The Great" accomplished. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to find that Vlad wants a city named "St. Putinsburg" when he finally shuffles off this mortal coil. Or "Putingrad." He wants to be the modern day Tsar.

What appears to be happening now is that he's more like Ivan than Peter. A leader who failed and then slipped into madness. Maybe decades from now a Russian filmmaker will make a movie that portrays Putin as a tragic hero?

 

[lpetrich]

Abandoned Russian base holds secrets of retreat in Ukraine - "When Russian troops fled the Ukrainian town of Balakliia last month, they left behind thousands of documents that detail the inner workings of the Russian war machine."

In the weeks before that defeat, Russian forces were struggling with surveillance and electronic warfare. They were using off-the-shelf drones flown by barely trained soldiers. Their equipment for jamming Ukrainian communications was often out of action.  By the end of August, the documents show, the force was depleted, hit by death, desertions and combat stress. Two units – accounting for about a sixth of the total force – were operating at 20% of their full strength.

The documents also reveal the increasing effectiveness of Ukraine’s forces and offer clues to how the eight-month-old war might unfold, with Russia now under intense pressure on the southern front around the Black Sea coast. In the weeks before their retreat, Russian forces around Balakliia, a town 90 kilometres south of Kharkiv, came under heavy bombardment from HIMARS rocket launchers, recently supplied by the United States. The precision missiles repeatedly hit command posts.

The rest of that article is also interesting. Like how they wanted quadcopters, a commercially-available kind of drone, and how a lot of their equipment was failing.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Those who hate Russia the most are the ones who embody everything they claim to hate about it: they’re all pro-war, pro-censorship, pro-propaganda, pro-trolling operations, and support Ukraine in banning political parties and opposition media. They are what they claim to hate. Meanwhile those of us who oppose those things are told to ‘move to Russia,’ even though we’re the ones advocating the supposed ‘western values’ they claim to support while they’re doing everything they can to undermine them. They should move to Russia. … Western propaganda means people always oppose the last war but not the current war. The US provoking and sustaining its Ukraine proxy war is no more ethical than its invading of Iraq; it just looks that way due to propaganda. Ukraine isn’t the good war, it’s just the current war.

Always Opposing The Last War But Not The Current One: Notes From The Edge Of The Narrative Matrix

My personal suspicion is that Democrats have been mad at Russia ever since they abandoned communism in 1991.

From the article: The US provoking and sustaining its Ukraine proxy war is no more ethical than its invading of Iraq; it just looks that way due to propaganda. Ukraine isn’t the good war, it’s just the current war. That's just bizzaro.

Yeah... some people are shitty at analogies. The notable difference between Ukraine and Iraq... Ukraine ASKED for us to help!