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How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

And replace them with who(m)? The reason this happened in the first place is Russia is scraping the bottom of the barrel for leadership.
It's a shame this had to happen. It's a shame they had to be there in the first place. But, them's the breaks.
Not Russia, Putin. And Putin fears strong leadership particularly among his cronies and fellow Russians. Like Stalin, he wants to keep everyone under his thumb and kills off any threats to his power. What he's left with is incompetents, no surprise there.
 
Russian Hitler knows that the use of nukes would be his undoing. Not only would he lose power but he risks losing every military element he has deployed in Ukraine. He just isn't stupid or desperate or irrational enough to do that, and never will be.

The problem I see with your argument here is the premise that people like Putin, Hitler, and Trump think the way you do.

If everyone did, the human situation would be very different from what it is. But the people who wind up having that kind of power aren't the same as the rest of us.
Tom
I could never see a rational reason for Bush's invasion of Iraq. He himself was on record as saying that "nation building" is not on his agenda. As far as all those "weapons of mass destruction" claims, they certainly worked on the intellectually challenged but I recognized the propaganda for what it was, "weapons of mass delusion." I had a couple good conversations with workmates who were taken by all the pictures that Colin Powell offered. We had inspectors on the ground in Iraq. What were the dates of those pictures from Powell?

As you say, some people are easily manipulated. I suppose it's an emotional thing, the way their brains just work - or maybe don't work.
 
A lot can happen in a year. I think 2023 is going to be a stalemate, and if Ukraine doesn't get tired of the war, its western allies will.

But I could be wrong and maybe Ukraine can make a breakthrough.

Or maybe Russia will get the upper hand and force Ukraine into an interim peace somehow.
Ukraine doesn't want to be part of Russia but can't be armed with weapons strong enough to deter Russia. Putin seemingly has enough people to send to Ukraine to die. So stalemate. Breaking that stalemate would require Russia to be harmed economically enough to make the oligarchs take Putin down. Or Ukraine all of a sudden getting trounced, but a ground war requires an army, and Russia's ground forces have proven pathetic.

The West might tire, but I think the deeper this goes, the harder it'll be to say "Let's just say goodbye to the billions we gave for Ukrainian defense and let Russia take Moldova too."
 
A lot can happen in a year. I think 2023 is going to be a stalemate, and if Ukraine doesn't get tired of the war, its western allies will.

But I could be wrong and maybe Ukraine can make a breakthrough.

Or maybe Russia will get the upper hand and force Ukraine into an interim peace somehow.
Ukraine doesn't want to be part of Russia but can't be armed with weapons strong enough to deter Russia. Putin seemingly has enough people to send to Ukraine to die. So stalemate. Breaking that stalemate would require Russia to be harmed economically enough to make the oligarchs take Putin down. Or Ukraine all of a sudden getting trounced, but a ground war requires an army, and Russia's ground forces have proven pathetic.

The West might tire, but I think the deeper this goes, the harder it'll be to say "Let's just say goodbye to the billions we gave for Ukrainian defense and let Russia take Moldova too."
So the survival of the free world depends on its people being suckered in by a sunk costs fallacy? :unsure:

Oligarchs aren't going to take Putin down, because they not the ones in power. That's one of the fundamental misunderstandings in the west. The oligarchs are servants, who do the Tsar's bidding, or lose all their wealth. I think it's very likely that the opposite is going to happen and Putin will start appropriating the property of those oligarchs who are not supporting his war strongly enough. Economic sanctions have never (rarely?) worked to topple any dictator and it's unrealistic to expect that to happen in Russia either.

I think that Putin getting kicked out of Kherson was an inflection point. Now even Putin must realize that he can't get Odessa or Moldova in this round. In September there were rumors that the Russian generals had wanted to withdraw from Kherson earlier, but Putin wouldn't let them, and that's precisely because the Kherson bridgehead was Russia's key to western Ukraine, to keep Ukraine from being a viable state by denying it the Black Sea coast, and to build a land bridge to Transnistria and Moldova. But that's all gone now, and I think Putin would settle for the lands it has occupied for now if it would make the pain go away. It's true that even giving Russia even that would be a grave injustice and not acceptable to Ukraine, and might lead to new fight down the road for rest of Donetsk. But this is not an existential question for Ukraine.

That's why I think, if there is a stalemate, Ukraine might be wiling to cut its losses in 2024.
 
I'm sure that Ukraine is very tired over the war (to say the least). And I know that the west would love for it to be over. I predict that wall street will gain 1,000 points on the day when the war is declared over. But what choice does Ukraine have? No country in its right mind would ever consent to allowing the Russian army to fully occupy its country. We've already seen what Russia will do. The Russians will loot, kill, and rape the country. No country would voluntarily allow this just to avoid a stalemate
That is so spot on. Regardless any assurances to the contrary Ukraine can be assured that Pootang and his emasculated lackeys will continue in their terror. Ukraine has absolutely no choice but to continue to resist, no matter what, so long as the Putinistas are across the border. For Ukraine, Russian occupation is presently worse than death.

Never realized I was channeling John McCain when it came to understanding Pootang's imperialist ambitions and his penchant for exploiting weakness among his adversaries. No surprise really as this is and has always been KGB 101. McCain as a fellow veteran obviously understood this aspect of the situation perfectly.

The thing is (as I understand it and I may be wrong), while the US publicly did "weakness" by not responding directly to the annexation of Crimea, we did send military advisors and trainers to help Ukraine fight the "separatists" in the east. Part of the reason that last year's invasion - sorry - "special military operation" was such a disaster was that Ukraine's military had been given tactical knowledge that the US had learned the hard way throughout the Iraq and Afghan wars. Years of battlefield experience were passed onto them while Putin's military was still stuck in the cold war mindset of "just throw a bunch of grunts at the problem."

A smaller, smarter mobile force with modern equipment and battlefield tactics is gonna wreak havoc on an invader that hasn't changed with the times.

Russia is hammering Ukraine's infrastructure and civilian targets because frankly they can't overwhelm the defenders like they thought they could.
 
Oligarchs aren't going to take Putin down, because they not the ones in power. That's one of the fundamental misunderstandings in the west. The oligarchs are servants, who do the Tsar's bidding, or lose all their wealth.
The closest Western analogue is to the Mafiosi. The Capos throw their weight around, but they dare not cross the big boss, and if they even look like they might waver in their loyalty, they risk falling out of a window.

Russia was completely taken over by the mob after the Soviet Union collapsed, largely because the gangsters were the only people with any kind of structured framework in place to get anything done.

"Oligarchs" is a euphemism; These guys are organised crime bosses, and always were. Putin is the Godfather. One day, someone might take him down; But it ain't likely to happen soon, and it will be very difficult to do until his power and influence are very obviously in decline.

But nobody lives forever.
 
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Apparently, a HIMARS strike on a Russian ammunition dump in occupied Donetsk killed and wounded hundreds of Russian soldiers, mostly conscripts. The Russian press is blaming this on the stupidity of locating a barracks near an ammunition dump that was known to be within range of Ukrainian missiles. More Russian families lose their sons to satisfy Putin's lust for conquest.

Anger in Russia as scores of troops killed in one of war's deadliest strikes

Article said:
Sergei Mironov, a legislator and former chairman of the Senate, Russia's upper house, demanded criminal liability for the officials who had "allowed the concentration of military personnel in an unprotected building" and "all the higher authorities who did not provide the proper level of security".
And replace them with who(m)? The reason this happened in the first place is Russia is scraping the bottom of the barrel for leadership.
It's a shame this had to happen. It's a shame they had to be there in the first place. But, them's the breaks.
[update]
And from ISW:
DNR law enforcement officials told Russian state wires that the strike occurred when Russian servicemen violated operational security by using personal cell phones, allowing Ukrainian forces to conduct a precision strike at the base.

Just one more way a much smaller, well trained and equipped, disciplined force beats a much larger one.

At the beginning of the war when Russia was coming down from Belarus, their conventional forces were at their strongest in both personnel and equipment. They had a 12:1 advantage over the Ukrainians and couldn't get the job done.
And now? They may enjoy a significant advantage in the heap of bodies they can throw unto the breach but this is just delaying the inevitable.
Stalemate my ass.
 
And replace them with who(m)? The reason this happened in the first place is Russia is scraping the bottom of the barrel for leadership.
It's a shame this had to happen. It's a shame they had to be there in the first place. But, them's the breaks.
The basic problem is that in a country like Russia the skills to rise in rank have little to with combat capability. They also have the opposing objectives of concentrating for security vs dispersing for safety from stuff coming from the sky. Spread out and the partisans and snoops have a much easier time of it, clump and you pay for it at HIMARS o'clock.
 
I could never see a rational reason for Bush's invasion of Iraq. He himself was on record as saying that "nation building" is not on his agenda. As far as all those "weapons of mass destruction" claims, they certainly worked on the intellectually challenged but I recognized the propaganda for what it was, "weapons of mass delusion." I had a couple good conversations with workmates who were taken by all the pictures that Colin Powell offered. We had inspectors on the ground in Iraq. What were the dates of those pictures from Powell?

As you say, some people are easily manipulated. I suppose it's an emotional thing, the way their brains just work - or maybe don't work.
Fundamentally, Iraq happened because Saddam would only behave when we were poised to invade. Bush got tired of having to move troops over to get him to behave and went in. And WMD wasn't propaganda, it was Saddam's underlings lying to him. They kept reporting having kept the WMD from the inspectors, in reality it was stuff that had never existed other than in their reports. (People afraid of being executed for failure.) It was his own culture of fear that got him deposed and executed.

There was a major element of Republican "thinking" involved--that their plans would magically produce the desired outcome, but it wasn't a sham.
 
I think that Putin getting kicked out of Kherson was an inflection point. Now even Putin must realize that he can't get Odessa or Moldova in this round. In September there were rumors that the Russian generals had wanted to withdraw from Kherson earlier, but Putin wouldn't let them, and that's precisely because the Kherson bridgehead was Russia's key to western Ukraine, to keep Ukraine from being a viable state by denying it the Black Sea coast, and to build a land bridge to Transnistria and Moldova. But that's all gone now, and I think Putin would settle for the lands it has occupied for now if it would make the pain go away. It's true that even giving Russia even that would be a grave injustice and not acceptable to Ukraine, and might lead to new fight down the road for rest of Donetsk. But this is not an existential question for Ukraine.

That's why I think, if there is a stalemate, Ukraine might be wiling to cut its losses in 2024.
The thing is they know that if Russia gets land that virtually guarantees future conflict that Russia is more prepared for. Ukraine is better off fighting the war now than later.
 
And replace them with who(m)? The reason this happened in the first place is Russia is scraping the bottom of the barrel for leadership.
It's a shame this had to happen. It's a shame they had to be there in the first place. But, them's the breaks.
The basic problem is that in a country like Russia the skills to rise in rank have little to with combat capability. They also have the opposing objectives of concentrating for security vs dispersing for safety from stuff coming from the sky. Spread out and the partisans and snoops have a much easier time of it, clump and you pay for it at HIMARS o'clock.
It's also very difficult to prevent conscripts from deserting, unless you keep them concentrated in large groups which can be constantly supervised by a small number of loyal NCOs. Dispersal offers conscripts far more opportunities to abscond.
 
And replace them with who(m)? The reason this happened in the first place is Russia is scraping the bottom of the barrel for leadership.
It's a shame this had to happen. It's a shame they had to be there in the first place. But, them's the breaks.
The basic problem is that in a country like Russia the skills to rise in rank have little to with combat capability. They also have the opposing objectives of concentrating for security vs dispersing for safety from stuff coming from the sky. Spread out and the partisans and snoops have a much easier time of it, clump and you pay for it at HIMARS o'clock.
Ukraine learned the same lesson early in the war, when Russia was hitting their bases and ammunition dumps with missiles.

HIMARS has been in use for six months. Yet in Makiivka they not only had hundreds of troops sleeping in the same place, but stored ammunition and vehicles there. Russian incompetence is Ukraine's best ally.
 
Yet in Makiivka they not only had hundreds of troops sleeping in the same place, but stored ammunition and vehicles there.
This is the behaviour of an army that's terrified of security threats - both from external saboteurs or thieves, and from conscripts trying to escape their service.
 
Ukraine says forces closer to recapturing key eastern city of Kreminna | Ukraine | The Guardian - "Luhansk city could be step towards launching offensives on Russian-held Sievierodonetsk and Lysychansk"

Ukraine hits huge Russian ammo dump at Svatove
Looks like a drone dropping a single bomb triggered it.

Just a day after destroying an ammo dump in Donetsk stored in the same school building as hundreds of Russian soldiers, Ukraine has destroyed a huge Russian ammo dump near Svatove.

...
The big question is why are the Russians storing so much ammo in one place rather than having smaller amounts in multiple locations.

Ukraine has been pounding Svatove and Kreminna since last fall, and has been moving VERY slowly toward those two towns. That nation's armed forces should have an easier time in the coming months, with the ground frozen.
 
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Russian forces are breaking down around Bakhmut. Similar to Kherson, they no longer operate tactically at battalion strength. Due to a loss of personnel and insufficient equipment, they are operating with squads of no more than fifteen men.

And Prigozhin cranks up the excuse machine of why he can't take Bakhmut and how it's someone else's fault. Wow. You know, Yevgeny, if you were a child on a playground, a politician rationalizing his bad behavior, or some rando arguing on the internet, you could get away with this. But operating as a military force in a wartime situation, not so much.
Or you could've just explained it away with the fact that Bakhmut is a town of little operational value. At least that would have been the truth.
ISW said:
Wagner Group financier Yevgeny Prigozhin attempted to justify the Wagner Group’s lack of progress in Bakhmut, partially supporting ISW’s assessment that Russian forces in Bakhmut are culminating.[15] Russian state media outlet RIA Novosti amplified a December 31 interview with Prigozhin on January 3 in which Prigozhin stated that Wagner Group forces in Bakhmut are unable to break through Ukrainian defenses in Bakhmut.[16] Prigozhin stated that Wagner's offensive operations in Bakhmut are highly attritional because each house in Bakhmut is a “fortress,” that Ukrainians have defensive lines every 10 meters, and that Russian forces must clear building-by-building.[17] This is a significant inflection for Prigozhin and the first time he has framed Wagner forces in Bakhmut as making effectively no gains. Prigozhin previously stated in October 2022 that Wagner forces operating in the Bakhmut area advance 100–200 meters a day.[18] The Wagner Group conducted information operations to assert that Wagner Group forces exclusively made gains in Bakhmut without the assistance of other Russian elements in December.[19]

Prigozhin is likely setting information conditions to blame Wagner Group's failure to take Bakhmut on the Russian Ministry of Defense or the Russian industrial base. Wagner Group soldiers told Prigozhin that they were unable to break through Ukrainian lines in Bakhmut due to insufficient armored vehicles, ammunition, and 100mm shell supplies during a likely scripted segment in the clip. This statement seeks to absolve the Wagner Group and Prigozhin of personal responsibility by attributing their failure to capture Bakhmut to the larger Russian resource allocation problems that Russian and Ukrainian sources have been increasingly discussing since late December.[20]
 
Slow progress is still progress. Unless Ukraine can turn the tables and start counter-attacking and regaining land, eventually wagnerites will brute force their way through Bakhmut. And likely take Soledar before that.
 
Slow progress is still progress. Unless Ukraine can turn the tables and start counter-attacking and regaining land, eventually wagnerites will brute force their way through Bakhmut. And likely take Soledar before that.
It is a lot easier to claim land than to hold it. Russia's problem isn't as much they can't make progress as it is they lack the man power to hold onto any winnings. And again, this becomes a mini-WWI. Little progress at a terrible cost... for no damn reason at all.
 
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ISW is reporting that Ukraine shot down some 40 drones for two nights in a row, 100% of them. All Iranian drones. I wonder if they are hacking them? I recall Iran once hacked a U.S. drone apparently and crashed it into Iran. I don’t see how else they could be so effectively getting their drones.
 
ISW is reporting that Ukraine shot down some 40 drones for two nights in a row, 100% of them. All Iranian drones. I wonder if they are hacking them? I recall Iran once hacked a U.S. drone apparently and crashed it into Iran. I don’t see how else they could be so effectively getting their drones.
The Shahed drones are not that sophisticated. They're just slow loitering munitions with GPS and pre-programmed target coordinates. Their initial success was partially due to numbers and element of surprise, but now that they're expected, Ukraine has probably been able to figure out a good system how to deal with them.

Also this might have something to do with the success rate:

450px-Gepard_1a2_overview.jpg


The German Gepard AA gun. Ukraine has received 30 of them, and to me they sound like the perfect weapon against slow-moving drone fleets.
 
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