How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[Harry Bosch]

A massive military buildup at or near Russia's western borders will cause Putin to have second thoughts about annexing Ukraine. He will be mindful of the unlikelihood that neither Poland nor Byelorussia would oppose those forces passing through, should they be ordered to slowly meander towards Moscow. Finland, Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia would be particularly cooperative. Troops in Romania would place Russian forces in an awkward pincer, should they try to roll into Ukraine.

I have a better idea. Skip this crap and just nuke yourself.

What is the worst thing that could happen if the Russians back down?

 

[barbos]

Note that this doesn't actually tell us what is really happening in Ukraine,

Exactly. The whole damn video is about what is happening in US.
You see, you are doing exactly the same thing previous video "viewer" was doing.....discussing something else, not the video.

 

[barbos]

What is the worst thing that could happen if the Russians back down?

The worst thing is nuclear war.

 

[Harry Bosch]

What is the worst thing that could happen if the Russians back down?

The worst thing is nuclear war.

You honestly think that the Nato plans to nuke Russia if Russia doesn't invade? That doesn't make any sense. I actually think that we should consider reengaging with Russia regarding the Nuke missile treaty that Trump scraped.

 

[barbos]

What is the worst thing that could happen if the Russians back down?

The worst thing is nuclear war.

You honestly think that the Nato plans to nuke Russia if Russia doesn't invade? That doesn't make any sense. I actually think that we should consider reengaging with Russia regarding the Nuke missile treaty that Trump scraped.

Not NATO, US. And yes, I think NATO aggressive expansion could eventually lead to nuclear War. Cuban Missile Crisis almost did. And do you know whose fault was that? US, 100%. Your fucking "democracy" almost killed everyone.

 

[Harry Bosch]

What is the worst thing that could happen if the Russians back down?

The worst thing is nuclear war.

You honestly think that the Nato plans to nuke Russia if Russia doesn't invade? That doesn't make any sense. I actually think that we should consider reengaging with Russia regarding the Nuke missile treaty that Trump scraped.

Not NATO, US. And yes, I think NATO aggressive expansion could eventually lead to nuclear War. Cuban Missile Crisis almost did. And do you know whose fault was that? US, 100%.

But it is Russia that is causing this conflict. The countries that border Russia want to join Nato because they are tired of being bullied by Russia. You want to take their land for your officers to vacation in. Want to take their water. Want to treat them as vassals rather than as the sovereign countries. No one wants war in Russia. Honestly. Stop acting the poor victim here. Ukraine isn't in Nato. There was very little talk of them joining Nato until the Russians massed 130,000 soldiers on their border. How long would Canada remain friendly to the US if we had a conflict with them (which we do all the time); and massed 100,000 US troops on their border?

 

[barbos]

But it is Russia that is causing this conflict. The countries that border Russia want to join Nato because they are tired of being bullied by Russia.

No!
It's you. The whole damn point of all these videos is to show it's actually you.
The same way it was You who almost killed everyone during missile crisis.
It is you!

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

So we agree that Russia is the aggressor

Russian leadership has received reassurances in the past, nothing in writing, that NATO would not move eastward. When the Soviet Empire inevitably tanked the US and western nations took advantage and invited membership from former Soviet Bloc countries. Russian leadership got all butthurt over this and is ostensibly what has led to the Ukraine situation we have today. But despite Russia's perspective the problem has never been NATO expansion but rather Russian leadership's inability to comprehend and embrace basic western freedoms. This is at the root of the present situation with Ukraine, not NATO behavior.

One might be tempted to think that the west should not have acted as it did when the Soviet empire tanked. The fact is, however, that the west does not speak for the countries that were the former soviet bloc. Russian leadership seems to think that they actually own these countries. It's an open secret that the US and western nations want all countries to democratize. Maybe Russian and Chinese leadership will be the last major bastions of anti-democratic gangsterism on the planet, but their days are certainly numbered. Putin types fear democracy and open debate and discussion. "Russian security" is really Russian insecurity, and is causing the problem.

 

[barbos]

So we agree that Russia is the aggressor

Russian leadership has received reassurances in the past, nothing in writing, that NATO would not move eastward. When the Soviet Empire inevitably tanked the US and western nations took advantage and invited membership from former Soviet Bloc countries. Russian leadership got all butthurt over this and is ostensibly what has led to the Ukraine situation we have today. But despite Russia's perspective the problem has never been NATO expansion but rather Russian leadership's inability to comprehend and embrace basic western freedoms. This is at the root of the present situation with Ukraine, not NATO behavior.

One might be tempted to think that the west should not have acted as it did when the Soviet empire tanked. The fact is, however, that the west does not speak for the countries that were the former soviet bloc. Russian leadership seems to think that they actually own these countries. It's an open secret that the US and western nations want all countries to democratize. Maybe Russian and Chinese leadership will be the last major bastions of anti-democratic gangsterism on the planet, but their days are certainly numbered. Putin types fear democracy and open debate and discussion. "Russian security" is really Russian insecurity, and is causing the problem.

You see, you repeat this propaganda you heard on TV over and over again.
In reality it has very little in common with ... reality.
Mearsheimer addressed all that crap in his lecture. That's why I posted it.

 

[zorq]

You see, you repeat this propaganda you heard on TV over and over again.
In reality it has very little in common with ... reality.
Mearsheimer addressed all that crap in his lecture. That's why I posted it.

Actually, if you go back and listen to Mearsheimer, he says exactly what Moogley said! Russia is a paranoid lunatic misinterpreting Western diplomacy near their "sphere of influence"! Where blame can fall on the West is that they didn't listen to Russia's warning that they are paranoid lunatics and chose instead to believe that they were civilized and sensible! But they aren't!

You can watch the Mearsheimer video again and figure out exactly what he says the west did wrong, or just read the paragraph I just wrote.

When a mad dog bites a child, do you blame the owner of the mad dog, or do you blame the child who stomped into its territory trying to pet it? You can argue that there is some blame to go around but it is the mad dog who needs behavior correction.

 

[barbos]

You see, you repeat this propaganda you heard on TV over and over again.
In reality it has very little in common with ... reality.
Mearsheimer addressed all that crap in his lecture. That's why I posted it.

Actually, if you go back and listen to Mearsheimer, he says exactly what Moogley said! Russia is a paranoid lunatic misinterpreting Western diplomacy near their "sphere of influence"! Where blame can fall on the West is that they didn't listen to Russia's warning that they are paranoid lunatics and chose instead to believe that they were civilized and sensible! But they aren't!

You can watch the Mearsheimer video again and figure out exactly what he says the west did wrong, or just read the paragraph I just wrote.

When a mad dog bites a child, do you blame the owner of the mad dog, or do you blame the child who stomped into its territory trying to pet it? You can argue that there is some blame to go around but it is the mad dog who needs behavior correction.

No

 

[zorq]

Note that this doesn't actually tell us what is really happening in Ukraine,

Exactly. The whole damn video is about what is happening in US.
You see, you are doing exactly the same thing previous video "viewer" was doing.....discussing something else, not the video.

Is the previous video "viewer" you? Because you just said the video was about the title and I was discussing the title.

 

[barbos]

Note that this doesn't actually tell us what is really happening in Ukraine,

Exactly. The whole damn video is about what is happening in US.
You see, you are doing exactly the same thing previous video "viewer" was doing.....discussing something else, not the video.

Is the previous video "viewer" you? Because you just said the video was about the title and I was discussing the title.

No and I did not say that.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

But it is Russia that is causing this conflict. The countries that border Russia want to join Nato because they are tired of being bullied by Russia.

No!
It's you. The whole damn point of all these videos is to show it's actually you.
The same way it was You who almost killed everyone during missile crisis.
It is you!

Based on my observations I blame inertia. Russia and The West have been paranoid over each other. barbos is the only local to vocalize the impression from a Russian point of view. It seems all Russia wants is a buffer, all they've ever wanted. The trouble is, Russia is morally bankrupt, as much as barbos wants to suggest otherwise. Russia caused a lot of pain in the Warsaw Pact, where as things were nice and sunny on the west side of Europe. Ukrainians and Finns fought with the Nazis against Russia. I think that speaks enough volumes as to how the locals have felt. And borders in the Europe have been changed and exchanged so often. So any argument of "But we owned it once" could be made by anyone, but San Marino.

Russia doesn't want Ukraine in NATO. That is it. Why? They are using 19th century based fear that the West will keep coming. *spoiler alert* The West won't. Of course, NATO Is hesitant to have Ukraine enter, because NATO doesn't want a war over Ukraine. It seems silly, an armed conflict over potential outcome that isn't likely for a while.

 

[barbos]

But it is Russia that is causing this conflict. The countries that border Russia want to join Nato because they are tired of being bullied by Russia.

No!
It's you. The whole damn point of all these videos is to show it's actually you.
The same way it was You who almost killed everyone during missile crisis.
It is you!

Based on my observations I blame inertia. Russia and The West have been paranoid over each other. barbos is the only local to vocalize the impression from a Russian point of view. It seems all Russia wants is a buffer, all they've ever wanted. The trouble is, Russia is morally bankrupt, as much as barbos wants to suggest otherwise. Russia caused a lot of pain in the Warsaw Pact, where as things were nice and sunny on the west side of Europe. Ukrainians and Finns fought with the Nazis against Russia. I think that speaks enough volumes as to how the locals have felt. And borders in the Europe have been changed and exchanged so often. So any argument of "But we owned it once" could be made by anyone, but San Marino.

Finns fighting along with nazis proves russians are bad?
What about Hungarians, or Bulgarians? or italians? same thing?
And British and americans must be bad according to your logic?

There were russians who were fighting russians along with nazis.
And these ukrainians were murdering jews and poles in their spare time. So I would not put too much stock in their moral superiority.

Russia doesn't want Ukraine in NATO. That is it. Why? They are using 19th century based fear that the West will keep coming. *spoiler alert* The West won't. Of course, NATO Is hesitant to have Ukraine enter, because NATO doesn't want a war over Ukraine. It seems silly, an armed conflict over potential outcome that isn't likely for a while.

You keep repeating this garbage.
There can't be no doubt that West is coming, and it is coming after Russia and Putin specifically.
You conducted a coup in Ukraine, you conducted a coup in Georgia. Tried a coup in Belarus. But Russia and Putin personally is an ultimate goal. There can't be no doubt about that.
I personally don't care about Putin. I care about myself. I know that this shit you are planning will not end well for anybody in Russia including myself.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

But it is Russia that is causing this conflict. The countries that border Russia want to join Nato because they are tired of being bullied by Russia.

No!
It's you. The whole damn point of all these videos is to show it's actually you.
The same way it was You who almost killed everyone during missile crisis.
It is you!

Based on my observations I blame inertia. Russia and The West have been paranoid over each other. barbos is the only local to vocalize the impression from a Russian point of view. It seems all Russia wants is a buffer, all they've ever wanted. The trouble is, Russia is morally bankrupt, as much as barbos wants to suggest otherwise. Russia caused a lot of pain in the Warsaw Pact, where as things were nice and sunny on the west side of Europe. Ukrainians and Finns fought with the Nazis against Russia. I think that speaks enough volumes as to how the locals have felt. And borders in the Europe have been changed and exchanged so often. So any argument of "But we owned it once" could be made by anyone, but San Marino.

Finns fighting along with nazis proves russians are bad?

It demonstrates the Finns had no confidence of self-autonomy. It isn't like the Soviets didn't try to attack Finland.

What about Hungarians, or Bulgarians? or italians? same thing?
And British and americans must be bad according to your logic?

I have never claimed the West is clean, I've spoken quite the other way (though in the West things were nicer than the east, where Russian influence was devastating local economies). I'm also disputing your continual whitewashing of Russia's influence.

There were russians who were fighting russians along with nazis.
And these ukrainians were murdering jews and poles in their spare time. So I would not put too much stock in their moral superiority.

Not talking about moral superiority. Talking about your insistence on whether Russia belong in Ukraine, as far as the people there think.

Russia doesn't want Ukraine in NATO. That is it. Why? They are using 19th century based fear that the West will keep coming. *spoiler alert* The West won't. Of course, NATO Is hesitant to have Ukraine enter, because NATO doesn't want a war over Ukraine. It seems silly, an armed conflict over potential outcome that isn't likely for a while.

You keep repeating this garbage.
There can't be no doubt that West is coming, and it is coming after Russia and Putin specifically.

Again... where? This is the Russian version of the Domino Theory. At some point it stops, like at waters and Russia. And again, Ukraine isn't going into NATO any time soon. If it happened, it'll be well after Putin passes away at the age of 105.

You conducted a coup in Ukraine, you conducted a coup in Georgia. Tried a coup in Belarus.

Coups v elections. Verses attempted strategic homicides of political opponents of Russia.

But Russia and Putin personally is an ultimate goal. There can't be no doubt about that.

Domino Theory again.

I personally don't care about Putin. I care about myself. I know that this shit you are planning will not end well for anybody in Russia including myself.

How in the heck do we take over Russia? Any takeover would be economic, by buying Russian corps, but Russia isn't exactly designed for foreign corporate takeovers. And sure the heck we aren't putting troops in Russia.

 

[barbos]

How in the heck do we take over Russia?

Don't need to, all you need to do is install a puppet or simply start civil war.
Look, you don't have much goodwill remaining in Russia, and it's not a result of Putin's propaganda or whatever. I merely informing you of the situation.

Domino Theory again.

Yep, and it is your theory and your plan.

Not talking about moral superiority. Talking about your insistence on whether Russia belong in Ukraine, as far as the people there think.

Are you serious with this crap?

I have never claimed the West is clean,

There was no West in 1941. You somehow concluded that russians are bad because they fought bunch of allies of nazi Germany. Are you high?

It demonstrates the Finns had no confidence of self-autonomy. It isn't like the Soviets didn't try to attack Finland.

That's cute, you are educating me about war with Finland.
My grandfather fought that war.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

How in the heck do we take over Russia?

Don't need to, all you need to do is install a puppet or simply start civil war.

Man that is paranoid.

Look, you don't have much goodwill remaining in Russia, and it's not a result of Putin's propaganda or whatever. I merely informing you of the situation.

We never had any goodwill with Russia.

I have never claimed the West is clean,

There was no West in 1941. You somehow concluded that russians are bad because they fought bunch of allies of nazi Germany. Are you high?

Before The New West, there was the Old West (Britain and France). Your second sentence doesn't appear to reflect on anything I have stated.

Russia isn't clean. The Soviet Government was guilty of murdering so many of their own people and tried to maintain an iron grasp on Eastern Europe, plunging those economies into Communistic failure. This isn't news, you know this.

It demonstrates the Finns had no confidence of self-autonomy. It isn't like the Soviets didn't try to attack Finland.

That's cute, you are educating me about war with Finland.
My grandfather fought that war.

Then why did you ask about it? The contention was that locals around Russia were worried about Russia absorbing them.

 

[ZiprHead]

Russia is demonstrating why there is a need for NATO to exist.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Based on my observations I blame inertia. Russia and The West have been paranoid over each other. barbos is the only local to vocalize the impression from a Russian point of view. It seems all Russia wants is a buffer, all they've ever wanted. The trouble is, Russia is morally bankrupt, as much as barbos wants to suggest otherwise. Russia caused a lot of pain in the Warsaw Pact, where as things were nice and sunny on the west side of Europe. Ukrainians and Finns fought with the Nazis against Russia. I think that speaks enough volumes as to how the locals have felt. And borders in the Europe have been changed and exchanged so often. So any argument of "But we owned it once" could be made by anyone, but San Marino.

Russia doesn't want Ukraine in NATO. That is it. Why? They are using 19th century based fear that the West will keep coming. *spoiler alert* The West won't. Of course, NATO Is hesitant to have Ukraine enter, because NATO doesn't want a war over Ukraine. It seems silly, an armed conflict over potential outcome that isn't likely for a while.

The one thing Putin fears more than anything is an open, free, democratic Russian population. It's important to distinguish between Russia and Putin, which is why I was careful to say Russian leadership in my earlier post. The people of Ukraine want democracy and freedom, same as the people of Belarus. This is the threat Putin fears. Everything else is small potatoes.

There is a scintilla of truth in barbos's claim that NATO is after Putin. Putin is just like other dictators and strongmen, he just has more weapons.