How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[Jayjay]

I think the strikes in Moscow, if carried out by Ukraine, are potential fuel to Russian propaganda, both internal and external. Ukraine should tread very carefully, even though it's understandable why they want to retaliate for the last year's worth of terror against their own civilians.

 

[Elixir]

i agree that occasional, random and minimally harmful strikes are probably better propaganda tools for Russia than wartime tactics for Ukraine. To be effective, these attacks would need to be virtually nonstop, to a point where it actually terrorizes the Russian people.

 

[Gospel]

i agree that occasional, random and minimally harmful strikes are probably better propaganda tools for Russia than wartime tactics for Ukraine. To be effective, these attacks would need to be virtually nonstop, to a point where it actually terrorizes the Russian people.

When it comes to conflicts between nations, predicting reactions, whether it's from those directly affected or observers around the globe, is anything but certain. When a population is subjected to terror, it doesn't just impact the immediate parties involved - it can have wide-ranging repercussions that upset the balance for everyone.

Take, for instance, the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks. Osama Bin Laden could hardly have anticipated the extent to which these actions would destabilize the Arab world, while in turn prompting the US to enact far more stringent laws on it's own population . Like the ability to collect phone records, internet activity, and financial records without a warrant.

Similarly, the chain of events following the Palestinian intifada and the Israeli government's response in the early 2000s led to severe ramifications for both countries and their allies. This fallout created ripples felt across the globe that we, as a global community, are still dealing with to this day.

Conflicts of such nature tend to create situations that are detrimental for all parties involved. It's an intricate, global web in which we're all interconnected, and terrorist like actions in one corner of the world will cause unforeseen consequences in another.

 

[Elixir]

Conflicts of such nature tend to create situations that are detrimental for all parties involved.

That does sum it up imo.
My immediate thought is the same one that has precipitated lots of grief: yes, there is a likelihood that widespread attacks on the Russian populace would upset a balance. But there is a balance there that needs to be upset. Of course it would be foolish to think that the only balance that would be upset would be the one that really needs it, and my suggesting that without a widespread terror campaign these drone attacks are a nothingburger, is not a recommendation that Ukraine undertake it. The least disruptive way to the rest of the world to upset the balance in Russia, is obviously to let them do it to themselves.

 

[steve_bank]

A Russian apartment building in Moscow hit by drones, the plot thickens.

Will Putin use tactical nukes?

 

[Rhea]

I found it interesting that Putin admitted that the act of lobbing drones at a city is an act of terrorism, tho.

 

[barbos]

I think the strikes in Moscow, if carried out by Ukraine, are potential fuel to Russian propaganda, both internal and external. Ukraine should tread very carefully, even though it's understandable why they want to retaliate for the last year's worth of terror against their own civilians.

Everything that nazi regime in Kiev does is a potential fuel.
But russian public is hard to surprise at this point.
It's kinda "What took you so long?"
It's not really russian public you should worry about. It's your public. Yes, your public. Even your corrupt media can not hide this shit for much longer. And I am not talking about this incident. I am talking about interviews of ukrainian nazis, where they admit that they ARE nazis to ...... BBC

Governments in some Eastern Europe countries are facing the fact that their populations are majority pro-russian.
Even western Europe is hardly united. You would be hard pressed to find a country which is not at least 20-30% pro-russian.
They can machinate only to a certain degree, but at a certain point they WILL lose elections.

 

[barbos]

I found it interesting that Putin admitted that the act of lobbing drones at a city is an act of terrorism, tho.

He never said otherwise. Unlike your own Lindsey Graham

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I found it interesting that Putin admitted that the act of lobbing drones at a city is an act of terrorism, tho.

Ruski Hitler only admitted that your lobbing them at me is an act of terrorism. My lobbing them at you is defending myself from Nazis.

We need to see a lot more of these things hitting inside Putinstan. Maybe the population will discover their balls again.

 

[barbos]

What reason do you have to think that most "educated people" support occupying entire Ukraine?

Anecdotally, support for harder approach correlates with level of knowledge of the problem and education in general.

After the mobilization last year the support for continuing the war dropped below peace talks.

Again, I am talking about educated people, not average.

Georgia learned they weren't trustworthy enough to the west for us to help them defend themselves so they kowtow to Moscow. Doesn't mean they like you.

What makes you think they liked you?
You paid them money to hate Russia. Ordinary people of course did not see much of that money, it went to politicians.
Russia said, OK, you want to play this game and cut all economic ties, took some time and ordinary people elected sane politicians. The end.
Watch and learn how to use economic sanctions properly. The fact is, Russia has more economic leverage than the West in these countries.

 

[barbos]

You gave an excellent reason for a full and unconditional occupation of Ukraine.
And you are not listening. I said majority of educated (in the topic) people support occupation and reintegration of Ukraine into Russia.
There is simply no other choice which would lead to peace.

If Moscow simply pulled back to the 2014 status quo ante there would immediately be peace, no negotiation needed.

You mean undoing US led nazi coup?
That's asking too much from Nuland

 

[barbos]

So it does not bother you that people who invaded Belgorod Oblast in order to overthrow Putin openly admit being nazi? to fucking BBC.
By the way, they used american weapons provided to Ukraine.
Does not bother you. You still insist these were local Russians who rebelled against Putin regime?
The "russian" guy in question was from germany (emigrated from Russia 20 years ago).
Spoke english with very light accent. Does not bother you. To you he was local russian.

What about that hilarious story about pro-Russian clown in US (I think) who was white-power/supremacist whatever.
Then he educated himself and switched to being..... pro-ukrainian, because he realized that russians were not actually nazis, instead, ukrainians were. You can't make this shit up.

 

[barbos]

Karma is a bitch. Poroshenko was photograhed in bomb shelter.
For these who listen to CNN crap only, Poroshenko once gave a fiery speech threatening to bomb children of Eastern Ukraine.

 

[barbos]

Ruski Hitler only admitted that your lobbing them at me is an act of terrorism. My lobbing them at you is defending myself from Nazis.

Biden is Hitler, albeit senile.

 

[DrZoidberg]

So it does not bother you that people who invaded Belgorod Oblast in order to overthrow Putin openly admit being nazi? to fucking BBC.

I don't think anybody but you think that Ukraine is run by Nazis. Nobody is buying that, obviously false, Putin propaganda story.

I think your view of the world is bizarrely twisted.

By the way, they used american weapons provided to Ukraine.
Does not bother you. You still insist these were local Russians who rebelled against Putin regime?
The "russian" guy in question was from germany (emigrated from Russia 20 years ago).
Spoke english with very light accent. Does not bother you. To you he was local russian.

What about that hilarious story about pro-Russian clown in US (I think) who was white-power/supremacist whatever.
Then he educated himself and switched to being..... pro-ukrainian, because he realized that russians were not actually nazis, instead, ukrainians were. You can't make this shit up.

I think you can make it up. I think the Putin regime did. The narrative you hold is bizarre IMHO. Absolutely backward.

I think Putin's invasion of Ukraine is a war of aggression. I don't think they're motivated by protecting anyone. I think this war is all about Putin's desire to control the natural gas found under Ukraine and the Black Sea. I think Putin thinks all lives are expendable, Russian and otherwise, in his quest to make himself and his cronies richer.

That's what I think. I suspect there's more than me here who believes the same thing. I suspect most of us here.

 

[barbos]

I don't think anybody but you think that Ukraine is run by Nazis

I don't know anyone except people here who agree with you

I think you can make it up.

You mean BBC can make it up? Well, they can and the have done so many times. But why would thy do that?

I think Putin's invasion of Ukraine is a war of aggression.

Well, you are wrong.

Tell me what else you think? Do you think Iraq/Vietnam/Yugoslavia/Libya/etc was justified?

 

[zorq]

Putin didn't invade Ukraine as a defensive measure. When he was giving his speeches right before the "special military operation" that would only take 3 days he didn't mention a threat to Russia at all. He invaded as an aggressive measure. Putin's speeches claimed that Ukraine's people are really just Russian people who long to be united. He didn't call Ukranians Nazis. He was trying to justify full annexation of Ukraine if he could get away with it. But it was still all BS.

One excuse he gave for invading Ukraine was Ukraine's genocide against her own people. But that of course is also complete BS. Ukraine wasn't fighting against her own people in Lunansk and Donetsk she was fighting against the Russian invaders who had illegally invaded back in 2014. Russian invaders who were send on a secret mission to destabilize those regions and help the radical elements there to wage war against the legitimately elected Ukrainian government. These secret invaders, BTW, have been well documented and acknowledged in Russian courts because the shipping companies that were shipping all the weapons to the Russian fighters in the Donbas weren't getting paid so the secret invade in 2014 became part of the public record. Russia was sending 70 trucks worth of supplies every two weeks to Russian Soldiers illegally stationed in Ukraine.

Ukraine wasn't conducting a genocide in the Donbas, she was fighting criminal Russian invaders. She wasn't attacking Ukranians, she was attacking an occupying force sent by the dishonorable Mr. Putin in Moscow. The only reason Minsk II didn't advance and result in peace was because part of the agreement was for all the Russian dickweeds to evacuate the contested area. But Putin refused to recall them otherwise there is good reason to believe that Minsk II would have resulted in peace. But Putin didn't actually want peace. Putin wanted to steal Ukrainian land. So he used the conflict that he created (and refused to remove) as an excuse to escalate that conflict to get what he wanted, other people's treasure. Because he is a criminal cunt with no morals.

And this whole thing was so transparent to everyone paying attention because Putin used the exact same tactic to steal land in Georgia just before this. It is so stupid that Russia (or Barbos) thinks they are fooling anyone.

It takes a real dumbass to believe anything Russia has to say about this conflict. A real Trump level of dumbass. But what else did we expect?

But you know what wasn't in Putin's speeches? Any claims at all that Ukraine was a threat to Russia or anyone outside of Ukraine's borders. That's because Ukraine was minding their own business trying to evict the illegal Russian threat who had agressively and "secretly" attacked her without provocation way back in 2014!

 

[Harry Bosch]

Ruski Hitler only admitted that your lobbing them at me is an act of terrorism. My lobbing them at you is defending myself from Nazis.

Biden is Hitler, albeit senile.

This just never gets old! We are the Nazis. And yet your country is the one invading a sovereign country, killing it's people, stealing their land and goods. But we're the Nazis! Sounds like you need to get pretty creative to sleep at night!

 

[DrZoidberg]

I don't think anybody but you think that Ukraine is run by Nazis

I don't know anyone except people here who agree with you

I doubt most Russians buy it either. I think that too is rare. I think you're a weirdo. Even by Russian standards.

But I don't think he's tryingt to convince Russians. I think his plan is to make Westerners doubt our own narratives. Even just a little bit. That's all Putin needs to make Westerners hesitant about supplying weapons in Ukraine. I think that's why he's trying to do it.

I think you can make it up.

You mean BBC can make it up? Well, they can and the have done so many times. But why would thy do that?

This would be an incredibly easy story to make a fake plant of. Super easy.

Putin has a strong incentive to plant stories like this.

I think Putin's invasion of Ukraine is a war of aggression.

Well, you are wrong.

Tell me what else you think? Do you think Iraq/Vietnam/Yugoslavia/Libya/etc was justified?

Yes, I think all of those were justified. Every single one of those regimes were good to fight. It was good that USA took a stand.

Wars can have a positive outcome even when lost. I think each one of those conflicts has made dictators around the world more hesitant about starting wars. Saddam Hussain needed to go. The same can be said about Gaddaffi. The problem with Vietnam wasn't the fact that USA got involved. Simply that they backed the wrong horse. The South Vietnamese government was about as bad as the North Vietnamese one. The sunk cost fallacy made USA keep fighting long after they should have backed out. And what's your problem with American involvement in Yugoslavia? Didn't that work out for the best?

The world won't be more peaceful if we just let dictators get a free reign. Dictators need to get a smackdown by the international community. I'm personally extremely grateful for USA to keep fighting for the good of mankind. If they get some cheap oil out of it. I think it's worth it and well deserved.

And most importantly Putin, Xi and Khamenei are all extremely beligerent and dangerous leaders. They need to be contained somehow. As far as I am concerned the Ukraine war is evidence of that Putin is a new Hitler and needs to be stopped. I see the Ukraine war as an unprovoked war of aggression against another sovereign nation. I think the rest of the world has a duty to stop Russia now. Just my opinion.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Ruski Hitler only admitted that your lobbing them at me is an act of terrorism. My lobbing them at you is defending myself from Nazis.

Biden is Hitler, albeit senile.

Biden is one of the worst leaders morally in the history of the world ever... but he has no conscious idea what he is doing.

Yeah... that is a nonsensical accusation there.

So over 10,000 posts, well past a year... still at a quasi-stalemate as the Russian ground forces can't make headway... still. Plan A failed (shock and yawn), Plan B failed (lets try the east), Plan C isn't doing much better (let's throw mercs at the problem). Russia's problem is they don't seem to actually have a plan at this point other than wait until Ukraine gives up. Typically surrendering requires some sort of checkmate being involved. And Putin/Russian military seem to be playing tiddly winks.