How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Tell us what you really think of us.
Don't hold back.

It appears our venerable barbos has run out of rational rejoinders. Not sure how to take that.

 

[Ford]

Tell us what you really think of us.
Don't hold back.

It appears our venerable barbos has run out of rational rejoinders. Not sure how to take that.

Maybe the news that Ukraine is going to get a hold of some F-16s soon has him bothered.

As well it should.

A short time after 9/11, a private pilot out of one of the local airports somehow managed to accidentally send out a Squawk 7500...the code that says, essentially, "help, we're being hijacked."

Tensions were understandably high, so a couple of F-16s were scrambled out of Luke AFB and sent to intercept. This happened near my house, and I was outside when the jets flew by. Now, I'm a big fan of aviation, and have been to airshows where I've seen F-16s perform, so I know what one nearby at low altitude sounds like.

This was not that. These F-16s were flying angry. Some folks like to say "that's the sound of freedom," but for an enemy soldier? That's the sound of "we're fucked."

And while our stalwart Russian might never hear that sound in person, some of his "comrades" are going to hear it sooner than later. Or maybe they won't. They'll be standing next to their missile launcher or artillery piece when everything just ends in a fireball.

p.s. the fighter jets "convinced" the wayward pilot to land at the nearest airstrip, and I'm guessing he had to clean the seats in his plane after that.

 

[steve_bank]

I wonder how Barbos and average Russians compare life in Russia with life in North America and western Europe.

It came out early in the war many upcale Russians choose to live abroad, they don't want to live ain Russia.

Not just today but in general.

The majority from reporting do think the west is an enemy out to get Russia, decdeds of prophanda conditioning.

But wait, maybe it is us who are comdtined to see Russia as a shit hole when in reality it is a paradise. Like Cuba and North Korea.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Oh dear, those pesky Ukrainians are at it again.

....
In a statement, the armed forces said: “In the Azov operational zone, according to updated information, a large landing ship “Saratov” was destroyed during the attack on the occupied Berdiansk port. Large landing ships “Caesar Kunikov” and “Novocherkassk” were [also] damaged. Other losses of the enemy are being clarified.”

Several Russian ships had been unloading military equipment at Berdiansk in recent days, according to reports from the port by Russian media outlets.
......

Ukrainians claim to have destroyed large Russian warship in Berdiansk

Ukrainian armed forces have said they destroyed a large Russian landing ship at the port of Berdiansk in southern Ukraine on Thursday.

www.yahoo.com

 

[Patooka]

What are you doing here? Why are you here?

I'm eagerly awaiting your next brilliant insight into the war your President got your country into. That's what I'm doing. Come on barbos, remind us all again how you believe you've already "won".

 

[Copernicus]

Oh dear, those pesky Ukrainians are at it again.

....
In a statement, the armed forces said: “In the Azov operational zone, according to updated information, a large landing ship “Saratov” was destroyed during the attack on the occupied Berdiansk port. Large landing ships “Caesar Kunikov” and “Novocherkassk” were [also] damaged. Other losses of the enemy are being clarified.”

Several Russian ships had been unloading military equipment at Berdiansk in recent days, according to reports from the port by Russian media outlets.
......

Ukrainians claim to have destroyed large Russian warship in Berdiansk

Ukrainian armed forces have said they destroyed a large Russian landing ship at the port of Berdiansk in southern Ukraine on Thursday.

www.yahoo.com

I don't know how that story got a 2023 date on it. It happened a year ago--March 24, 2022. It isn't current.

 

[bilby]

And colonel is way better than general.

er...

No, it's really not. That's why when a colonel becomes a general, people say "Congratulations on your promotion", and not "Sorry to hear that you were demoted".

 

[TV and credit cards]

Oh dear, those pesky Ukrainians are at it again.

....
In a statement, the armed forces said: “In the Azov operational zone, according to updated information, a large landing ship “Saratov” was destroyed during the attack on the occupied Berdiansk port. Large landing ships “Caesar Kunikov” and “Novocherkassk” were [also] damaged. Other losses of the enemy are being clarified.”

Several Russian ships had been unloading military equipment at Berdiansk in recent days, according to reports from the port by Russian media outlets.
......

Ukrainians claim to have destroyed large Russian warship in Berdiansk

Ukrainian armed forces have said they destroyed a large Russian landing ship at the port of Berdiansk in southern Ukraine on Thursday.

www.yahoo.com

I don't know how that story got a 2023 date on it. It happened a year ago--March 24, 2022. It isn't current.

It's bad enough one can hardly read a news story any longer without grammatical errors but to get the date wrong by a year... shameful.

 

[TV and credit cards]

 

[Elixir]

It's bad enough one can hardly read a news story any longer without grammatical errors but to get the date wrong by a year...

Shame on Russia... putting their stupidity in the headlines again.
One Year Later, Russian Navy Confirms Loss of the Amphib Saratov

 

[TV and credit cards]

It's bad enough one can hardly read a news story any longer without grammatical errors but to get the date wrong by a year...

Shame on Russia... putting their stupidity in the headlines again.
One Year Later, Russian Navy Confirms Loss of the Amphib Saratov

The ship itself I didn't recall. What caught my eye in the Yahoo article were the references to Kherson and Mariupol. This is what gave me pause to look this up. Copernicus had already caught it.

 

[Copernicus]

It's bad enough one can hardly read a news story any longer without grammatical errors but to get the date wrong by a year...

Shame on Russia... putting their stupidity in the headlines again.
One Year Later, Russian Navy Confirms Loss of the Amphib Saratov

The ship itself I didn't recall. What caught my eye in the Yahoo article were the references to Kherson and Mariupol. This is what gave me pause to look this up. Copernicus had already caught it.

The Yahoo article was totally confusing, because the news story was a belated acknowledgment by Russia, not the fact that the ship had been lost. The Maritime Executive article made that clear. Apparently, Yahoo confused the new news with a year-old incident and chose to "update" the old article by changing the date on it. I would call it sloppy journalism, but it wasn't even journalism. It looks like something that a chatbot would do.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Who the Free Russia Legion is.

Significantly, Moscow did not refer to the unit directly. Admitting that Russian fighters had turned against the national army and were launching attacks on Russian territory would be “really bad for Putin and Russian propaganda”, said Huseyn Aliyev, a specialist in Russian and Ukrainian security at the University of Glasgow.

Such an admission could even pose a threat to those in the Kremlin. “It is their strongest possible way to make a point, to try to show to Russian audience they exist as an opposing force to Putin’s regime,” said Glen Grant, a senior analyst at the Baltic Security Foundation and a specialist in the Russian military.

A look at the Free Russia Legion, the pro-Ukrainian group that attacked Belgorod

A cross-border incursion into the Russian region of Belgorod on Monday put the Free Russia Legion under the spotlight, prompting questions about this mysterious paramilitary unit of anti-Putin Russians.

www.france24.com

 

[Copernicus]

Although the Georgian government has been inching closer to Moscow, it looks like barbos would not be well-received by the general population. Here is an in-depth story about how the influx of antiwar Russians into Georgia is affecting the country. As with Ukraine, the people want closer ties to Europe, not Russia. The Russian government wants Georgia back under Russian domination.

‘Get out’: Influx of Russians to Georgia stokes old enmities​

...The government’s recent attempt to force through what critics see as a Kremlin-style “foreign agent” law, and the huge protests which prevented this, have not helped émigrés to settle in or locals to feel at ease alongside the new arrivals. Many in Georgia fear what they see as the creeping Russification of their country – a story they know all too well.


Georgia, a former Soviet republic, has long been caught between Russia and the West. Despite gaining independence from the Soviet Union in 1991, a potential European future is still struggling to be born. Georgia’s stance towards Russia is decidedly mixed. The two countries have had no formal diplomatic relations since Russia invaded Georgia in 2008 – but Russians living and working here enjoy lax visa requirements, making it an easy choice for those who fled last year.

On the streets of Tbilisi, the reception for Russian émigrés has also been mixed. “It’s a whole range of attitudes,” said Ivan, a 20-something IT consultant from a city in Russia’s far east. CNN is withholding Ivan’s real name, to protect him from retribution should he ever return to Russia.

Some Georgians are “warm and welcoming” and treat Russians as their “brothers,” Ivan told CNN. Others tell them to “get out.” The key difference is age, he has found. “Those who are welcoming are mostly people who were born in the USSR. The ones who are Russophobic are mainly young people,” he said...

Russians entering bars are sometimes required to sign papers claiming that they oppose Putin and respect the territory of Georgia, Ukraine, and Moldova.

 

[Jayjay]

The only possible peace that I can see is your side withdraw to Russia, but maybe keep Crimea.

Russia will always be a threat to world commerce and food supply, if they’re allowed to keep Crimea.

But then in exchange, Ukraine is allowed to join Nato.

“Allowed”? I don’t think Russia should be allowing or disallowing ANYTHING: Ukraine is a sovereign nation.

It's dangerous for world commerce to keep Russia troops in the Black Sea.

Right. Letting them profit from their illegal seizure of Crimea would ensure that they remain a danger to world commerce.
Fuck the Russian “leadership”; they have demonstrated their inability to conform to civilized norms. Whatever means necessary to disempower them, are justified by the end.

World history is full of injustices. Sure it sucks that Russia took Crimea, but that was a decade ago, and is unlikely to give it up voluntarily. At some point we'll let it go (just like Ossetia and Abkhazia, Transnistria, Kuril Islands, Königsberg, and a bunch of other conquests) and just try take some precautions to prevent it from happening again.

 

[Jayjay]

Funny how you can't seem to be able to name those "actual" generals. Or any of your other sources

I can do better than that, I can name an actual american colonel who said that.

Yet you didn't.

You've really swallowed the Russian propaganda yarn whole!

So you are saying Istanbul talks are russian propaganda?

Istanbul talks in 2022 started after the war, when Ukraine's chances were pretty bleak. And they broke down some time after Bucha massacre if I recall correctly.

Ukraine will be made whole.

Russian population is slowly turning against it.
Ukraine can not be left alone with western scum.
Georgia learned their lesson and quite happy with their de-facto neutral status.
Ukraine must be fully occupied and integrated back into Russia.
Will it be done? I personally doubt. But in my opinion it should be done.

Russian population are sheep being subjected to propaganda and brainwashing. Of course, they probably mostly believe the bullshit that Kremlin is feeding them. But so what? Russia isn't a democracy. What the people think hardly matters. When the leaders to end the war, they'll just do it, and the sheep will follow.

You're delusional if you think Georgia is "happy" with Russia occupying parts of its land and continuing to threaten to take the rest. They have a knife on their throat, and doing whatever they can not to upset the bully holding the knife is a matter of survival, not about being "happy with their neutral status". But you can bet your Lada that if there was a chance to escape from Russia's hold they'd take it in a heartbeat. The mass protests against restarting direct flights to Moscow or oppressive foreign agent laws show that the Georgian people hate your guts. The same psychology is why the Baltic countries hate you, why Poland hates you, and why almost everyone you've ever occupied hates you.

Ukraine managed to fight back. And it turned out to be the right call. Sure, Russia annexed about a fifth of the country and Ukraine isn't likely to get that land back. But it managed to remain an independent country and foil Russia's plans of total domination.

 

[Jayjay]

Ukraine will be made whole.

Russian population is slowly turning against it.
Ukraine can not be left alone with western scum.
Georgia learned their lesson and quite happy with their de-facto neutral status.
Ukraine must be fully occupied and integrated back into Russia.
Will it be done? I personally doubt. But in my opinion it should be done.

Wondering if this post could be moved to the Humor thread?

Move all you want, but that's the mood in Russia, prevailing among educated people.

I don't disagree with you here. I actually think that a majority, maybe a slim majority, of Russians agree with you. And therefore, probably no worthwhile peace will suffice long term. Therefore, the only lasting solution is to bring Ukraine into Nato.

You gave an excellent reason for a full and unconditional occupation of Ukraine.
And you are not listening. I said majority of educated (in the topic) people support occupation and reintegration of Ukraine into Russia.
There is simply no other choice which would lead to peace.

What reason do you have to think that most "educated people" support occupying entire Ukraine?

After the mobilization last year the support for continuing the war dropped below peace talks. Haven't seen any more recent polls that would indicated otherwise. But of course by introducing a "no true scotsman" argument that educated people think otherwise you can pretend whatever you want.

 

[Jayjay]

Russian revolution led to an oppressive regime. Regime failed followed by a few years of potenia;l stability. Eventually the old order reestablished itself, authoritarianism, military conquest, and corruption.

The regime is again bringing about its own destruction and fostering a poential revolution.

A recurring Russian theme while the west through difficulties moves forward.

Hitler had no choice but to keep on keeping on, as with Putin. Putin can no longer control events, he can only stay alive as long as possible at any cost to others.

China pragmatically adjusted. While authoritarian and oppressive, Chinese leaders have improved the lives of the Chinese people.

Russia seems like it is always a dark, dull place.

If things do fall apart the question is who ends up controlling the nukes. Other than that I could care less.

Putin improved the lives of Russians compared to the horribly 1990s. Arguably a big part of that was the higher oil prices that allowed the regime to do so, but nevertheless it happened on Putin's watch, and while Putin didn't get rid of corruption and criminality, the standard of living of elites in St. Petersburg and Moscow did increase.

Similar thing could be said about Xi who's following in Putin's footsteps. He reduced corruption, but at the same time got rid of his political opponents and solidiied his own position. And I think that like Putin, eventually he'll fuck it up... and take the entire country with him.

 

[Jayjay]

F16s may be the final nail in the Russian coffin. Ukrainian air superiority.

F-16 will not bring air superiority. They'd still be vulnerable enough to Russian air defence that they'd be used similarly to MiG-29 and Tu-whateverthenumberwas, to fly low and fire missiles safe distance from frontlines. Basically F-16 will be used to plug the attrition of Ukrainian air force.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Ukraine will be made whole.

Russian population is slowly turning against it.
Ukraine can not be left alone with western scum.
Georgia learned their lesson and quite happy with their de-facto neutral status.
Ukraine must be fully occupied and integrated back into Russia.
Will it be done? I personally doubt. But in my opinion it should be done.

Georgia learned they weren't trustworthy enough to the west for us to help them defend themselves so they kowtow to Moscow. Doesn't mean they like you.