How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[barbos]

Democracy and free speech isn't perfect

In terms of lies, "democracies" are patently worse than "non-democracies".

You're not even trying to make sense now.

Yes, of course if you scrutonise public officials and force them to live up to their promises, that leads to more lies. That explains why there's no corruption in Russia.

No, it's you who is not making any sense. It's a statistical fact that Democracies lie way way more than non-democracies.

It pisses me off that Europe isn't pouring in money to save Ukraine.

No amount of money can "save" Ukraine.

In that case we should also send troops. But Ukraine is a big country. They have the manpower. What they don't have is the hardware. So I think they'll do fine if well financed

In that case Russia should use nukes.

 

[barbos]

They have the manpower

They don't anymore. And it's a small country of 25 million people.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

More good stuff:

Ukrainian forces shoot down four Russian aircraft, including an advanced Su-35 fighter

It's always good to see more Nazi planes lying on the ground as burning rubble.

The specific weapons used by the Ukrainians weren't disclosed. However, the Defense Express portal speculated that it could've been the Patriot system equipped with GEM-T missiles, which offer a striking range of up to 160 km (approximately 99 miles) for aerial targets.

Russian Nazi pilots pretty soon are going to be circling their airfields while launching their payloads. Getting any closer means they will be shot down.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Denmark armed Saddam with T-72s!?

Germany armed saddam with chemical weapons.
He was YOUR guy in that war too.

German companies (not Germany itself) armed Saddam with an illusion of chemical weapons. Note that he was basically unable to actually produce them, we engaged in a long hunt for chemicals that existed only in underlings reports to Saddam to cover up their failures.

 

[TomC]

Denmark armed Saddam with T-72s!?

Germany armed saddam with chemical weapons.
He was YOUR guy in that war too.

German companies (not Germany itself) armed Saddam with an illusion of chemical weapons. Note that he was basically unable to actually produce them, we engaged in a long hunt for chemicals that existed only in underlings reports to Saddam to cover up their failures.

For what it's worth, that's not what I remember.
Saddam Hussein had chemical weapons. He used them on his own people, Kurds up north. They were manufactured by European companies, French IIRC, but supplied by the USA.
His use of those weapons on Kurds was like a warm up to using them on Iranians. Which he did. Thousands of Kurdish Iraqis died horrible deaths so that SH could test his new American weapons before using them against Iran.

Back when the Bush administration was claiming that SH had WMDs, it's because we supplied them back when he was our ally. We knew he had possessed them, the question was did he still?
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The Baltic Sea is pretty much a NATO lake anymore. All the bordering countries are purchasing anti-ship missiles because of Russia's invasion of its neighbor Ukraine. Once these missiles are in place Russian ships in Kaliningrad won't stand a chance in an actual fight and would likely be sunk in port if hostilities ever really happened. But I am sure that is all part of barbos' plan. We'll probably see these ships redeployed somewhere else closer to Russia in the future.

Anti ship missiles don't fare too well against ships in port. They hit ships at sea. To hit a ship in port you want a land attack missile.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Another unlucky completely accidental accident in Russia

Putin critic Alexei Navalny dies in Arctic Circle jail, says Russia

Jailed Russian politician Alexei Navalny has died in a penal colony, the country's prison service says.

www.bbc.com

Death happens. Recently 2 russian actors in their 40s died. And before that actor here, standup comedian there, all young.
And in general I noticed a lot of people were dying young. I suspect COVID complications.
In case of Navalny he had a blood clot, according to officials.
You can disbelieve that, but that happens. Being in prison does not help, and I think he did not get along with administration, that would give one extra-stress.

Death by blood clot is one of the ways people die from a beating.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Very surprised by your lack of understanding here. Your war ships are in the black sea to harass cargo transit and to support future amphibious troops ships transporting soldiers looking to invade. You need to focus here: the only purpose of an amphibious ship is to transport soldiers to attack ports.

Disagree--the primary purpose of amphibious ships is transporting the equipment those soldiers. The soldiers could get there by other means, the equipment can't.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Very surprised by your lack of understanding here. Your war ships are in the black sea to harass cargo transit and to support future amphibious troops ships transporting soldiers looking to invade. You need to focus here: the only purpose of an amphibious ship is to transport soldiers to attack ports.

Disagree--the primary purpose of amphibious ships is transporting the equipment those soldiers. The soldiers could get there by other means, the equipment can't.

Very good point. My primary issue is that Russian ships are in the Black Sea in order to bully, kill, harass and transport those who would bully, kill, and harass.

 

[lpetrich]

Navalny is DEAD. Russia blames the West - YouTube - nice tribute by Russian vlogger Roman. He credited Alexei Navalny's activism for inspiring him to get started vlogging.

Russia's leaders blamed the West, even though AN was in a high-security prison in a small town near the north coast of Siberia, something that Roman snickered at.

 Alexei Navalny and  Death of Alexei Navalny at  FKU IK-3, Kharp or Polar Wolf penal colony in  Kharp in the  Yamalo-Nenets Autonomous Okrug in  Far North (Russia)

• Russian Duma Speaker Blames U.S., EU for Navalny’s Death
• Kremlin Contends the West Is Behind Everything That Happened to Navalny

Kharp has population is around 6,000, and ithe largest city in the okrug,  Novy Urengoy has a population of around 100,000. It is some 500 km / 300 mi away from Kharp, and it has an airport. Moscow is about 2,000 km / 1,200 mi southwestward from Kharp.

 

[lpetrich]

Alexei Navalny was a lawyer and would-be politician before turning to documenting the gross corruption of Russia's leaders.

Alexei Navalny exposed Putin's $1.4B mansion, $700M superyacht 'to mobilize people to fight': expert

Navalny's ceaseless crusade against Putin and corruption : NPR

That led him to exposing President Vladimir Putin's corruption, and VP didn't exactly appreciate that.

In 2020, someone attacked AN with  Novichok a poison that Russian agents have used on other critics of VP's regime, and he had to be hospitalized for a while.

 

[barbos]

Another unlucky completely accidental accident in Russia

Putin critic Alexei Navalny dies in Arctic Circle jail, says Russia

Jailed Russian politician Alexei Navalny has died in a penal colony, the country's prison service says.

www.bbc.com

Death happens. Recently 2 russian actors in their 40s died. And before that actor here, standup comedian there, all young.
And in general I noticed a lot of people were dying young. I suspect COVID complications.
In case of Navalny he had a blood clot, according to officials.
You can disbelieve that, but that happens. Being in prison does not help, and I think he did not get along with administration, that would give one extra-stress.

Death by blood clot is one of the ways people die from a beating.

OK, fine. He was beaten, what does Putin have to do with it?
You do realize, that beating happens even in EU prisons?
And no, millions of people die from blood clots without any beating.

Navalny was not exactly healthy man. He had medical issues even before that "poisoning"
And you still have not answered the question, what would be the reason for Purin to murder a person who was utterly irrelevant while alive?

 

[barbos]

Denmark armed Saddam with T-72s!?

Germany armed saddam with chemical weapons.
He was YOUR guy in that war too.

German companies (not Germany itself) armed Saddam with an illusion of chemical weapons. Note that he was basically unable to actually produce them, we engaged in a long hunt for chemicals that existed only in underlings reports to Saddam to cover up their failures.

For what it's worth, that's not what I remember.
Saddam Hussein had chemical weapons. He used them on his own people, Kurds up north. They were manufactured by European companies, French IIRC, but supplied by the USA.
His use of those weapons on Kurds was like a warm up to using them on Iranians. Which he did. Thousands of Kurdish Iraqis died horrible deaths so that SH could test his new American weapons before using them against Iran.

Back when the Bush administration was claiming that SH had WMDs, it's because we supplied them back when he was our ally. We knew he had possessed them, the question was did he still?
Tom

Saddam was your guy, (Russia's guy too).

 

[lpetrich]

Alexei Navalny's 'far-right racist' past back in spotlight after Putin-critic's death - "As world leaders pay tribute to Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny, some have drawn attention to some inconvenient aspects of his past."

"Navalny took part in the Russian March, an annual demonstration that draws ultranationalists, including some who adopt swastika-like symbols," Rahman tweeted. "He has never apologised for his earliest xenophobic videos or his decision to attend the Russian March.

...
Rahman appeared to be referring to a notorious video from 2007 in which Navalny appears to compare Muslim immigrants in Russia to "cockroaches" as he advocated for gun ownership.

In another video, he is dressed as a dentist and appears to compare migrants in Moscow to tooth cavities, Radio Free Europe reports. He says: "I recommend full sanitisation. Everything in our way should be carefully but decisively be removed through deportation."

Shortly before releasing both clips, which are still on his YouTube channel, Navalny was expelled by the liberal Yabloko party over his "nationalist activities", having participated in the Russian March, an annual rally associated with ultra-nationalist far-right groups chanting slogans such as "Russia for ethnic Russians".

...
Navalny never apologised for the controversial videos from 2007.

So he has a mixed record. But then again, Hugo Black moved from wearing white robes and scaring black people to wearing black robes and scaring white people. He joined the Ku Klux Klan early in his career because he thought that it would be good for professional networking. He insisted that he was law abiding, that he did not participate in KKK terrorism. Late in his life, he was a Supreme Court Justice, and he was involved in some civil-rights decisions.

 

[lpetrich]

Hard void to fill: Navalny’s death poses challenges for Russian opposition | Obituaries News | Al Jazeera - "The anti-corruption campaigner and leader of the Russian opposition leaves behind a legacy of ‘the struggle for Russia’s better future’."

Navalny was a controversial figure. Early in his career, he made hateful remarks about Muslims, immigrants and Georgians, and walked alongside the Russia March, an annual procession attracting monarchists, ultranationalists and far-rightists of all stripes.

He later took back some of his comments, was one of the few prominent Russians to support Black Lives Matter, and spoke out against systemic discrimination against Muslims in the prison system.

After a suspected poisoning attempt in 2020, Navalny was flown to Germany for treatment but nevertheless returned to Russia in January 2021, where he was immediately arrested and handed a 30-year term for “extremism” and other charges.

Alexei Navalny had a vision of a democratic Russia. That terrified Vladimir Putin to the core

Despite being convicted on trumped-up embezzlement charges, he was allowed to run in Moscow’s mayoral elections in 2013. In a clearly unfair contest, which included police harassment and hostile media coverage, he won 27% of the vote.

...
One of the most important was a 2017 exposé of the network of charities that funded the palaces and yachts of then-premier Dmitry Medvedev. Viewed 46 million times on YouTube, it triggered protests across Russia.

No less significant was Navalny’s contribution to the methods of pro-democracy activism. To exploit the regime’s dependence on heavily manipulated elections, he developed a strategy called “intelligent voting”. The basic idea was to encourage people to vote for the candidates who had the best chance of defeating Putin’s United Russia party. The result was a series of setbacks for United Russia in 2019 regional elections.

One measure of Navalny’s impact was the intensifying repression directed against him. As prosecutors tried to paralyse him with a series of implausible criminal cases, they also pursued his family. His younger brother Oleg served three and a half years in a labour camp on bogus charges.

...
In a powerful two-hour documentary film, A Palace for Putin, Navalny chronicled the obsessive greed that had transformed an obscure KGB officer into one of the world’s most notorious kleptocrats.

With over 129 million views on YouTube alone, the film shattered the dictator’s carefully constructed image as the incarnation of traditional virtues.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Another unlucky completely accidental accident in Russia

Putin critic Alexei Navalny dies in Arctic Circle jail, says Russia

Jailed Russian politician Alexei Navalny has died in a penal colony, the country's prison service says.

www.bbc.com

Death happens. Recently 2 russian actors in their 40s died. And before that actor here, standup comedian there, all young.
And in general I noticed a lot of people were dying young. I suspect COVID complications.
In case of Navalny he had a blood clot, according to officials.
You can disbelieve that, but that happens. Being in prison does not help, and I think he did not get along with administration, that would give one extra-stress.

Death by blood clot is one of the ways people die from a beating.

OK, fine. He was beaten, what does Putin have to do with it?

You mean other than the Putin being in charge of Navalny's arrest, imprisonment, and how Navalny was treated while in prison?

Can't think of anything.

You do realize, that beating happens even in EU prisons?

Are you seriously going there? This is Fat Tony level satire out of you.

And no, millions of people die from blood clots without any beating.

Navalny was not exactly healthy man.

True, "being Russian" is the leading cause of premature death in Russia. The second leading cause is "elevation".

He had medical issues even before that "poisoning"
And you still have not answered the question, what would be the reason for Purin to murder a person who was utterly irrelevant while alive?

They don't have to intend to murder someone to be negligent while beating him occasionally.

 

[barbos]

You mean other than the Putin being in charge of Navalny's arrest, imprisonment, and how Navalny was treated while in prison?

Not really. He got into prison by himself.

 

[barbos]

They don't have to intend to murder someone to be negligent while beating him occasionally.

He was not beaten, OK?
He had medical issues.

 

[laughing dog]

What makes you think that after decades of nothing but manipulative bullshit, today is the day Russia is suddenly honest about one thing?

You have evidence of that?

Every single one if your posts.

 

[laughing dog]

They don't have to intend to murder someone to be negligent while beating him occasionally.

He was not beaten, OK?
He had medical issues.

From being beaten.