How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[aupmanyav]

By not supporting Ukraine you are supporting a war monger.

By supporting Ukraine, the war is going to be prolonged. Those affected will be Ukrainians, not you or me. Talking peace is the best alternative. Talking peace does not mean capitulating.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Sure Ukraine got rid of their corrupt government and pro-Russian puppet, but hey, progress doesn't really mean anything, right? This angered Pootie who decided he would take advantage of Ukraine's weakness to invade them, because, might is right.

 

[aupmanyav]

You included an incorrect word: "not". You're supporting the war monger Putin.

No, I am not. I am trying to put forward peace talks to save all, Ukrainians as well as Russians, even if that may not be liked by Western powers or NATO.

 

[aupmanyav]

And they're not saying #6: the end of Ukranian culture. Take the children, kill anyone who can fight.

These are false assumptions. Ask someone to initiate talks and then see.

 

[DrZoidberg]

So you favor Putin government? You somehow think that dictatorship is better than what Ukraine had?

What you have in US is much closer to what Russia has than to what Ukraine had before 2014.
Of course now they have Dictatorship.


By the way, Putin created cure for cancer, so take that you, you stupid "democracies".

That's just delusional. USA's democracy is working just fine. It's one of the better ones on this entire planet. People who complain about how undemocratic USA is just doesn't understand how democracy works, when it works. Democracy is fundamentally a bunch of self stabalising institutions, that at every level, encourage and incentivise a well run nation. Who the guy at the top is, is less important. In the American system, who the president doesn't really matter that much. The system is smarter than the individuals running it.

One of USA's problems with it's democracy, is how empowered it's citizens are. And that why USA has all that regulation and red tape. Because American's are very good at creating lobby groups to push through legislation to protect their little group. But this is something any democratic nation could develop toward, if it's citizens were as good at getting organised.

 

[aupmanyav]

Ukraine was watching in 2008 when Russia violently inserted themselves into a Georgian civil war as "peacekeepers" who then turned around and simply conquered and annexed that contested territory.

There also the cause was not paying attention to Russian sensibilities by electing Zviad Gamsakhurdia.
Why are USA or India not recognizing Taiwan as a separate country? Because that will hurt the sensibilities of China.
These things have to be kept in mind in international relations. Just a revolution is not enough, it back-fires.

"In keeping with its China policy, the U.S. does not support de jure Taiwan independence, but it does support Taiwan's membership in appropriate international organizations, such as the World Trade Organization, Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC) forum, and the Asian Development Bank, where statehood is not a ..."

Taiwan–United States relations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[TV and credit cards]

This is not a dispute where both sides have valid claims/grievances against the other. This was an invasion of one country upon another. All Russia can hope for is some easing of sanctions/reparations after they retreat to the internationally recognized border.
Russia has no more say in what other countries Ukraine befriends, the national language they choose, or what they teach their children in school than they do Finland.

 

[aupmanyav]

Yes you do! If you buy Russian gas, you ARE a warmonger.

India will go by its own policy.

 

[aupmanyav]

So you favor Putin government? You somehow think that dictatorship is better than what Ukraine had? Do you know what it means to cling to an abusive guardian? That is what you are saying the Ukrainians should do, submit to Hitler and take their chances. It didn't work so well for the Jews. What leads you to think it would work for the Ukraine?

I am not favoring anyone. I am saying that the best way to peace under the circumstances is not war but peace talk. How would we know without talking?
Is not West an abusive guardian of Ukraine? It is making Ukraine fight an unending war.

 

[aupmanyav]

You favor a Putin/Hitler dictatorial state? Should South Korea just surrender to North Korea?

I am trying to help Ukraine by asking it (in this forum, I do not have any clout either with Ukraine or with Russia) to think of peace. One cannot clap with one hand. Both the parties should be agreeable.

 

[aupmanyav]

Your support for war-mongering is evident in your opposition to Ukraine defending itself against unprovoked invasion.
I suspect you'd be whistling out of the other side of your mouth if it was YOUR home being invaded.

I would not try to do something which will make anyone attack my home. West has made Ukraine the sacrificial lamb.
Ahh, replied to 12 alerts.

 

[bilby]

Why are USA or India not recognizing Taiwan as a separate country?

Because China hasn't pushed them into doing so, by attempting to invade Taiwan.

Russia has attempted to invade Ukraine, and still occupy a large part of the country (despite getting their asses kicked when they tried to strike toward Kyiv).

Russia deliberately and unilaterally discarded diplomacy in favour of war, because they thought they would have an easy victory; They don't get to demand a do-over, and return to the diplomatic phase, now that their military gamble hasn't succeeded.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Ukraine was watching in 2008 when Russia violently inserted themselves into a Georgian civil war as "peacekeepers" who then turned around and simply conquered and annexed that contested territory.

When are you going to stop posting BS?
Russia "inserted" themselves into a Georgian civil in ~1991 when it all started.
Russia has not annexed anything yet. There were/are some talks about annexing Abkhazia but it stays as it is.
Abkhazia is a part of Russia which was gifted to Georgia by ..... Stalin. So, are you a fucking Stalinist?
As for the South Ossetia, most of these people live in Russian part of Ossetia and really want to be in Russia.

And by the way. Current government in power in Georgia, while not happy about their border, pretty much told US "Fuck You!".

Your view of nations and nationalism is what led to WW1 and died with WW2. It's an obsolete way to view the world. Letting Abkhazia stay in Georgia is not being pro-Stalin.

All national borders today is the result of accidents in history. All of them. They're all arbitrary. As is what language is spoken somewhere and what ethnic group occupies a land.

It's funny how we're so myoptically staring at ethnicity when every ethnic group's culture has been radically reshaped by industrialism, in the last 200 years. Abkhazia before Stalin's industrialisation was a different place than after. What exactly should Russia be getting back? That Akhazia is gone.

What we do know is that peace and stability is good for everybody. As is democracy and freedom. In a peaceful, open, free and democratic world everybody wins. So how about we all try to aim for that?

 

[TV and credit cards]

Ukraine was watching in 2008 when Russia violently inserted themselves into a Georgian civil war as "peacekeepers" who then turned around and simply conquered and annexed that contested territory.

When are you going to stop posting BS?
Russia "inserted" themselves into a Georgian civil in ~1991 when it all started.
Russia has not annexed anything yet. There were/are some talks about annexing Abkhazia but it stays as it is.
Abkhazia is a part of Russia which was gifted to Georgia by ..... Stalin. So, are you a fucking Stalinist?
As for the South Ossetia, most of these people live in Russian part of Ossetia and really want to be in Russia.

And by the way. Current government in power in Georgia, while not happy about their border, pretty much told US "Fuck You!".

Your view of nations and nationalism is what led to WW1 and died with WW2. It's an obsolete way to view the world. Letting Abkhazia stay in Georgia is not being pro-Stalin.

All national borders today is the result of accidents in history. All of them. They're all arbitrary. As is what language is spoken somewhere and what ethnic group occupies a land.

It's funny how we're so myoptically staring at ethnicity when every ethnic group's culture has been radically reshaped by industrialism, in the last 200 years. Abkhazia before Stalin's industrialisation was a different place than after. What exactly should Russia be getting back? That Akhazia is gone.

What we do know is that peace and stability is good for everybody. As is democracy and freedom. In a peaceful, open, free and democratic world everybody wins. So how about we all try to aim for that?

Bold: The Russian ethnic occupation of Eastern Ukraine was no accident. It was by direction after the intentional starvation of Ukrainians.

Holodomor - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There was also migration in to Ukraine as a response to the famine: in response to the demographic collapse, the Soviet authorities ordered large-scale resettlements, with over 117,000 peasants from remote regions of the Soviet Union taking over the deserted farms.[112][113] Areas depopulated by the famine were resettled by Russians in the Zaporizhzhia, Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts, but not as much so in central Ukraine. In some areas where depopulation was due to migration rather than mortality, Ukrainians returned to their places of residence to find their homes occupied by Russians, leading to widespread fights between Ukrainian farmers and Russian settlers. Such clashes caused around one million Russian settlers to be returned home.[114]

As was language spoken and cultural attachment by order of Stalin.

 

[barbos]

TV and credit cards,
Holodomor never happened the way ukro-nazi described.
What is in no dispute is that Ukroi-nazi were murdering poles and jews. There is no dispute about that fact.
Eastern Ukraine along with its russian population were attached to Ukraine by Lenin purely for political reasons - in order to make Ukraine look bigger. Otherwise USSR would be just Russian Republic.
Eastern Ukraine historically was not very populated during Russian Empire.
So both russians AND Ukrainians were encouraged to move there. After establishing Soviet Union a lot skilled workers from Russia were moved there from Russia during industrialization. So it has nothing to do with "Holodomor".
Jew/pole murdering Ukro-propaganda scam is lying.
To be fair, Jew/pole murdering ukro-scam came from Western Ukraine and had legitimate reasons to hold grudge against poles. Poland has always been hard on non-catholic and really non-pole population in their kingdom.
So it's not a surprise that western ukrainians hated poles and started murdering them at the first opportunity.
Ukrainians from Russian part of Ukraine (that includes Kiev) have been perfectly fine in both Russian Empire and USSR.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Russia is trying to bully Ukraine into defeat using missile attacks on the civilian population. This is no sort of peace talk. Russia cannot be trusted and has no intention of being peaceful. No more than when Stalin and Hitler divided Poland up between them.

 

[barbos]

Russia is trying to bully Ukraine into defeat using missile attacks on the civilian population.

That's what western Propaganda tells you. In reality russian army is bullying Ukraine by exterminating their Army and power stations. This is perfectly legal way to conduct war. Ukro regime on the other side continues its terrorist attacks on Belgorod trying to paint Putin as weak and incapable to prevent that. Russia has no reason for terrorism. We are winning

 

[barbos]

No more than when Stalin and Hitler divided Poland up between them.

That's not what happened. Stalin took Western Ukraine back from Poland and only that.
Western Ukraine at the very least was a disputed territory. Last time Poland annexed it from Russian Empire during WW1.
Where Stalin made a mistake was releasing banderites from prisons back into society after WW2. It was a grave mistake. He should have let them rot in prison, all of them, no exception.

 

[barbos]

Western neocon propaganda are filthy liars.
It's easy for them to lie, western public does not know shit about Russia and even less than that about Ukraine.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Ukraine was watching in 2008 when Russia violently inserted themselves into a Georgian civil war as "peacekeepers" who then turned around and simply conquered and annexed that contested territory.

When are you going to stop posting BS?
Russia "inserted" themselves into a Georgian civil in ~1991 when it all started.
Russia has not annexed anything yet. There were/are some talks about annexing Abkhazia but it stays as it is.
Abkhazia is a part of Russia which was gifted to Georgia by ..... Stalin. So, are you a fucking Stalinist?
As for the South Ossetia, most of these people live in Russian part of Ossetia and really want to be in Russia.

And by the way. Current government in power in Georgia, while not happy about their border, pretty much told US "Fuck You!".

Your view of nations and nationalism is what led to WW1 and died with WW2. It's an obsolete way to view the world. Letting Abkhazia stay in Georgia is not being pro-Stalin.

All national borders today is the result of accidents in history. All of them. They're all arbitrary. As is what language is spoken somewhere and what ethnic group occupies a land.

It's funny how we're so myoptically staring at ethnicity when every ethnic group's culture has been radically reshaped by industrialism, in the last 200 years. Abkhazia before Stalin's industrialisation was a different place than after. What exactly should Russia be getting back? That Akhazia is gone.

What we do know is that peace and stability is good for everybody. As is democracy and freedom. In a peaceful, open, free and democratic world everybody wins. So how about we all try to aim for that?

Bold: The Russian ethnic occupation of Eastern Ukraine was no accident. It was by direction after the intentional starvation of Ukrainians.

Holodomor - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

No, but it is an accident in history that a person like Stalin took power in Russia.

There's an unboken chain of unlikely events that put him in power.

The first revolutionary Russian duma was liberal and ddemocratic. If they had stayed in power everything would have been different