How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[T.G.G. Moogly]

There's no excuse for spending a lifetime reading what conforms to one's long held opinions.

Except that those opinions originated with the same reading ... it's weird how thoroughly a person's view of the world can be made to diverge from reality through simple constant exposure to lies.

There has got to be a great asymmetry in immigration/emigration between the U.S. and India. I would think that far more people leave India to live in the US than leave the US to live in India. I could be wrong. Same goes for Russia. It is worth asking the question, "Why?"

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

There may not be some deep, complex strategic objective behind Ukraine’s incursion into Russian territory, much beyond, “You fuckers wanted a war; this is how wars work.”

That and the fact that Ukraine needed to test equipment and tactics. It's a win/win for Ukraine.

 

[steve_bank]

It was not just bombing, the issue was fire bombing. I think it was Harris who advocated terror bombing in response for German terror bombing. Churchill initially resisted on moral ground and then agreed.

The bombing of Dresden, both Brits and Americans dropped incendiaries along with high explosives. The firestorm was horrific.

Or Curtis Le May on Japan, firebombing and firestorms.

If someone is out to kill you and your family do you defend yourself according to a set of moral rules, or do you do anything to save your life and family?

 

[Henry-Finland]

Copernicus wrote:
"It is hard enough to get budgetary support for Ukraine through Congress, and there will be considerable pushback over the use of American-manufactured military equipment being used inside of Russia."

I think this is something that US citizens do not understand:

• 90% of the billions promised by the U.S. never actually leave the country; instead, they are used to purchase military equipment from U.S. factories. Or more accurately, often U.S. sells older equipment that still works well and then Pentagon orders the latest models from U.S. factories - for the US Army. This creates jobs in the U.S., which in turn generates tax revenue for the government, etc.
  Of course, the modernization, maintenance, transportation, and training of Ukrainians on older and newer equipment cost money, but this also creates jobs for Americans.
• When the factories can produce new types of equipment the factories are also able to export these weapons and weapon systems.
• The U.S. can sell or provide all the surplus military equipment to Ukraine through the Lend-Lease program. Ukraine is fine even with older surplus gear. There aren't enough weapons and supplies for Ukraine's newly trained soldiers.
  US has even 4 miljon 155 mm cluster bombs that it will destroy as "they are old". Ukraine would gladly take them.
• 
  Yes, war is BIG business.
  
  
• Also the EU must be involved in this funding. But at the same time, it's important to consider that EU countries are taking in millions of refugees and are also covering their living expenses.

As the Ukrainians say: Give us the tools, and we’ll do the work.

Politicians who remain silent or even lie about these facts must be exposed. (US citizens could begin with the Congress.)
______________________

Copernicus! I understand that you are an older guy - I am 73 y.o.

 

[pood]

There was no Ukraine back then and Kiev was not founded in 482 BC.
According to archeological data something resembling few villages formed in 8-10th century.
It was not what one would classify as city or center of anything back then.
Kiev is the oldest Russian city, but Novgorod is not far behind.

[removed] Kyiv and Ukraine predate Moscow and Russia by hundreds of years. That is stone-cold fact. Centuries later, when Russia became more powerful, it absorbed Ukraine into its filthy czarist empire, but Ukraine had its own language and culture separate from Russia as did the other nations that the Russian empire forcibly absorbed — the Baltic states, Belorussia, Finland, Poland and others. Lenin created an Ukraine SSR, a federal Soviet Socialist Republic, out of a pre-existing nation that predated Russia itslef by hundreds of years. You know all this perfectly well.

 

[Copernicus]

Copernicus wrote:
"It is hard enough to get budgetary support for Ukraine through Congress, and there will be considerable pushback over the use of American-manufactured military equipment being used inside of Russia."

I think this is something that US citizens do not understand:

• 90% of the billions promised by the U.S. never actually leave the country; instead, they are used to purchase military equipment from U.S. factories. Or more accurately, often U.S. sells older equipment that still works well and then Pentagon orders the latest models from U.S. factories - for the US Army. This creates jobs in the U.S., which in turn generates tax revenue for the government, etc.
  Of course, the modernization, maintenance, transportation, and training of Ukrainians on older and newer equipment cost money, but this also creates jobs for Americans.
• When the factories can produce new types of equipment the factories are also able to export these weapons and weapon systems.
• The U.S. can sell or provide all the surplus military equipment to Ukraine through the Lend-Lease program. Ukraine is fine even with older surplus gear. There aren't enough weapons and supplies for Ukraine's newly trained soldiers.
  US has even 4 miljon 155 mm cluster bombs that it will destroy as "they are old". Ukraine would gladly take them.
• 
  Yes, war is BIG business.
  
  
• Also the EU must be involved in this funding. But at the same time, it's important to consider that EU countries are taking in millions of refugees and are also covering their living expenses.

As the Ukrainians say: Give us the tools, and we’ll do the work.

Politicians who remain silent or even lie about these facts must be exposed. (US citizens could begin with the Congress.)
______________________

Copernicus! I understand that you are an older guy - I am 73 y.o.

In the US, it is not a matter of understanding. It is a matter of politics. This is not the first time in our history that isolationism has become a factor in politics. Now we have a situation where US-manufactured weapons are being deployed on Russian soil. It makes a lot of people feel good to see the aggressors get a bloodied nose. It's not as if Russia didn't ask for this. They were begged by foreign leaders not to invade years ago, yet here we are today. However, there doesn't seem to be an exit strategy for either side. Ultimately there must be a diplomatic solution, or this war will become the modern era's "hundred years war".

We've already seen how Republicans in Congress managed to block funds for Ukraine up to the point where Russia was able to make material gains again in Donbas. It could happen again, if Republicans manage to keep control of the House of Representatives. They would like to see Ukraine collapse and then blame it on the Democrats. The current election is going to be critical for Ukraine's future, and I'm not sure whether the Kursk incursion will help or harm that future. Maybe it will help to destabilize the Putin regime. Maybe it will help to make it even more oppressive than it already is.

Meanwhile, we know who Russia will be helping to win in November. Russia's ally, Iran, appears to have already hacked into both campaigns and stolen data. Whatever they got, my guess is that it will be shared with Russia and used to interfere in the election.

FBI probing Trump campaign hack that also includes attempt on Biden-Harris campaign​

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

We've already seen how Republicans in Congress managed to block funds for Ukraine up to the point where Russia was able to make material gains again in Donbas. It could happen again, if Republicans manage to keep control of the House of Representatives. They would like to see Ukraine collapse and then blame it on the Democrats. The current election is going to be critical for Ukraine's future, and I'm not sure whether the Kursk incursion will help or harm that future. Maybe it will help to destabilize the Putin regime. Maybe it will help to make it even more oppressive than it already is.

Meanwhile, we know who Russia will be helping to win in November. Russia's ally, Iran, appears to have already hacked into both campaigns and stolen data.

As far as I'm aware, attempted to hack into the Democrat / Harris campaign. Someone hacked into... Roger Stone's email. I mean, how rich is that?! The mother of all political trolls in my lifetime, being hacked and used in an attempt to access other emails and resources.

Whatever they got, my guess is that it will be shared with Russia and used to interfere in the election.

The issue though is GOP info was leaked to the media... and the media has held up on it. Where as Wikileaks just publishes anything that was useful, when it was useful.

 

[SLD]

 

[Harry Bosch]

View attachment 47201

He’s the biggest baby on the planet. He brutally invades a country, gets fussy because they are fighting back!

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

View attachment 47201

Is that real? Is Putin admitting Ukrainians successfully invaded Russia and killed lots of Russian Civilians, and he needs foreign condemnation and pressure on Ukraine to withdraw, because Russia can't push them out? Did he actually say that?! Yes, there is a good deal of paraphrasing, but it isn't wrong.

I can't believe he would actually admit to such a defeat.

I found this:

"We haven't heard a word of condemnation of these actions from the Western sponsors of the Kyiv regime who continue to cover up the abhorrent crimes of their puppet," Russia's Deputy U.N. Ambassador Dmitry Polyanskiy told the council gathering.

"I would be grateful for the explanation how intentionally targeting civilians serves the goal of disrupting attacks on Ukrainian territory, given the fact that there were no military objects or infrastructure in the area," he said.

Not Putin. Doing a quick search on a portion of the quote, nothing but social media posts, so I'm labeling this as MISLEADING ATTRIBUTION AND OVER EXAGGERATED... ALSO PUTIN IS AN ASSHOLE.

 

[TV and credit cards]

There may not be some deep, complex strategic objective behind Ukraine’s incursion into Russian territory, much beyond, “You fuckers wanted a war; this is how wars work.”

I’m reminded of something the Royal Air Force’s Sir Arthur “Bomber” Harris said early in World War II, responding to the Germans clutching their pearls over having (gasp!) their civilian population centers come under concentrated bombing attacks:

“The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw, and half a hundred other places, they put their rather naive theory into operation. They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind.”

Ukraine might be doing nothing much past reminding the Russians that two can play at this shit.

But if by chance Ukraine can maintain control of Russian territory, it is every bit as embarrassing as Russia's initial march on Kyiv and in this could shake Putin's hold on power.

 

[pood]

View attachment 47201

He really said that? Really? Or is this some kind of parody? It just beggars belief.

 

[pood]

View attachment 47201

Is that real? Is Putin admitting Ukrainians successfully invaded Russia and killed lots of Russian Civilians, and he needs foreign condemnation and pressure on Ukraine to withdraw, because Russia can't push them out? Did he actually say that?! Yes, there is a good deal of paraphrasing, but it isn't wrong.

I can't believe he would actually admit to such a defeat.

lol, cross post.

 

[Copernicus]

Putin forgot who started the war.

The advance now appears to be meeting significant resistance for the first time in a week.

Ukraine trying to push deeper into Russia, as advance appears slowed by Russian reinforcements​

The governor of the Kursk region, Alexey Smirnov, on Monday told President Vladimir Putin in a televised briefing that Ukraine now controlled 28 settlements after piercing 12 km into the region over a 40 km-wide front. Putin abruptly cut Smirnov off, telling him to stick to the "social and economic situation."

Ukrainian forces have not moved significantly forward in the past several days, suggesting that advancing has become more difficult as Russia recovers from the initial surprise and rushes more reinforcements to the region. Russia has been using aircraft and drones to target Ukrainian units.

An increased number of videos appearing to show destroyed Ukrainian vehicles have been appearing on pro-Russian social media accounts, including some associated with Russia's military.

Russian analysts have also warned Ukraine could attempt to launch new incursions at other points along the border.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

View attachment 47201

He really said that? Really? Or is this some kind of parody? It just beggars belief.

I added to my post. It appears to be the Russian UN Ambassador saying something similar, but not as much hyperbole.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Copernicus wrote:
"It is hard enough to get budgetary support for Ukraine through Congress, and there will be considerable pushback over the use of American-manufactured military equipment being used inside of Russia."

I think this is something that US citizens do not understand:

• 90% of the billions promised by the U.S. never actually leave the country; instead, they are used to purchase military equipment from U.S. factories. Or more accurately, often U.S. sells older equipment that still works well and then Pentagon orders the latest models from U.S. factories - for the US Army. This creates jobs in the U.S., which in turn generates tax revenue for the government, etc.
  Of course, the modernization, maintenance, transportation, and training of Ukrainians on older and newer equipment cost money, but this also creates jobs for Americans.
• When the factories can produce new types of equipment the factories are also able to export these weapons and weapon systems.
• The U.S. can sell or provide all the surplus military equipment to Ukraine through the Lend-Lease program. Ukraine is fine even with older surplus gear. There aren't enough weapons and supplies for Ukraine's newly trained soldiers.
  US has even 4 miljon 155 mm cluster bombs that it will destroy as "they are old". Ukraine would gladly take them.
• 
  Yes, war is BIG business.
  
  
• Also the EU must be involved in this funding. But at the same time, it's important to consider that EU countries are taking in millions of refugees and are also covering their living expenses.

As the Ukrainians say: Give us the tools, and we’ll do the work.

Politicians who remain silent or even lie about these facts must be exposed. (US citizens could begin with the Congress.)
______________________

Copernicus! I understand that you are an older guy - I am 73 y.o.

I'd like to see a list of how fast the US can produce various weapons. If not confidential, I'm sure it is not something the DoD likes to make public.
The more sophisticated stuff has a long lead to to get from factory to field. Often measured in months or even years. X number of people can only produce so much. Putting on a second shift takes time. A whole new production line, even longer. Qualifications for the various positions and required training aside, security clearances also have to be obtained and maintained. Then once these individuals are hired and up to speed, we do not want to find them looking for another job two or three years from now.
Other countries with orders for US weapons end up getting their delivery date pushed back. And now we have god's chosen people taking some of what should go to Ukraine.

 

[Henry-Finland]

Copernicus wrote:
"It is hard enough to get budgetary support for Ukraine through Congress, and there will be considerable pushback over the use of American-manufactured military equipment being used inside of Russia."

I think this is something that US citizens do not understand:

• 90% of the billions promised by the U.S. never actually leave the country; instead, they are used to purchase military equipment from U.S. factories. Or more accurately, often U.S. sells older equipment that still works well and then Pentagon orders the latest models from U.S. factories - for the US Army. This creates jobs in the U.S., which in turn generates tax revenue for the government, etc.
  Of course, the modernization, maintenance, transportation, and training of Ukrainians on older and newer equipment cost money, but this also creates jobs for Americans.
• When the factories can produce new types of equipment the factories are also able to export these weapons and weapon systems.
• The U.S. can sell or provide all the surplus military equipment to Ukraine through the Lend-Lease program. Ukraine is fine even with older surplus gear. There aren't enough weapons and supplies for Ukraine's newly trained soldiers.
  US has even 4 miljon 155 mm cluster bombs that it will destroy as "they are old". Ukraine would gladly take them.
• 
  Yes, war is BIG business.
  
  
• Also the EU must be involved in this funding. But at the same time, it's important to consider that EU countries are taking in millions of refugees and are also covering their living expenses.

As the Ukrainians say: Give us the tools, and we’ll do the work.

Politicians who remain silent or even lie about these facts must be exposed. (US citizens could begin with the Congress.)
______________________

Copernicus! I understand that you are an older guy - I am 73 y.o.

I'd like to see a list of how fast the US can produce various weapons. If not confidential, I'm sure it is not something the DoD likes to make public.
The more sophisticated stuff has a long lead to to get from factory to field. Often measured in months or even years. X number of people can only produce so much. Putting on a second shift takes time. A whole new production line, even longer. Qualifications for the various positions and required training aside, security clearances also have to be obtained and maintained. Then once these individuals are hired and up to speed, we do not want to find them looking for another job two or three years from now.
Other countries with orders for US weapons end up getting their delivery date pushed back. And now we have god's chosen people taking some of what should go to Ukraine.

We could begin with the X million 155 mm cluster bombs that US wants to scrap.

 

[steve_bank]

I wonder if Barbos has any biddies who could join in.

I don't have buddies, you are my buddies

You are not my friend in any sense of the word.I despise anyone who supports Putin's war.

Your grin emoji considering the topic and all the suffering rained down on Ukraine is sickening.

 

[Ford]

 

[SLD]

Copernicus wrote:
"It is hard enough to get budgetary support for Ukraine through Congress, and there will be considerable pushback over the use of American-manufactured military equipment being used inside of Russia."

I think this is something that US citizens do not understand:

• 90% of the billions promised by the U.S. never actually leave the country; instead, they are used to purchase military equipment from U.S. factories. Or more accurately, often U.S. sells older equipment that still works well and then Pentagon orders the latest models from U.S. factories - for the US Army. This creates jobs in the U.S., which in turn generates tax revenue for the government, etc.
  Of course, the modernization, maintenance, transportation, and training of Ukrainians on older and newer equipment cost money, but this also creates jobs for Americans.
• When the factories can produce new types of equipment the factories are also able to export these weapons and weapon systems.
• The U.S. can sell or provide all the surplus military equipment to Ukraine through the Lend-Lease program. Ukraine is fine even with older surplus gear. There aren't enough weapons and supplies for Ukraine's newly trained soldiers.
  US has even 4 miljon 155 mm cluster bombs that it will destroy as "they are old". Ukraine would gladly take them.
• 
  Yes, war is BIG business.
  
  
• Also the EU must be involved in this funding. But at the same time, it's important to consider that EU countries are taking in millions of refugees and are also covering their living expenses.

As the Ukrainians say: Give us the tools, and we’ll do the work.

Politicians who remain silent or even lie about these facts must be exposed. (US citizens could begin with the Congress.)
______________________

Copernicus! I understand that you are an older guy - I am 73 y.o.

I'd like to see a list of how fast the US can produce various weapons. If not confidential, I'm sure it is not something the DoD likes to make public.
The more sophisticated stuff has a long lead to to get from factory to field. Often measured in months or even years. X number of people can only produce so much. Putting on a second shift takes time. A whole new production line, even longer. Qualifications for the various positions and required training aside, security clearances also have to be obtained and maintained. Then once these individuals are hired and up to speed, we do not want to find them looking for another job two or three years from now.
Other countries with orders for US weapons end up getting their delivery date pushed back. And now we have god's chosen people taking some of what should go to Ukraine.

We could begin with the X million 155 mm cluster bombs that US wants to scrap.

Ok, Henry, this one’s for you. A little off topic but just in case they start a war with NATO.



ETA. I served with a Finnish infantry officer at ISAF HQ in Kabul. Great guy.