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How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

Again who is Putin to tell a sovereign nation can not make trade agreements with Europe?
Again, Putin did not object to any trade agreements. He merely said Ukraine can't have both at the the same time.
You really need to work on reading comprehension and thinking.
And it also can't choose the European trade agreement, otherwise it will be invaded and the people brutality murdered, the children kidnapped, etc.

Ukraine was stupid to give up its nukes. No leader will ever make such a dumb mistake again. Whomever on the Ukraine side agreed to that is a traitor to their nation.
 
Here's a good even headed Triggernometry video explaining why Trump got angry with Zelensky



I'm so fucking sick of today's media climate. It's not just that we're only exposed to biased news speaking to our base. But today, we're effectively shielded from reality. Unless we make an active effort to see other points of view. And this is harder than ever. Because Youtube and Facebook are invisibly filtering out the stuff you should see, in favour of the stuff you want to see. It's like everyone is delusional at the same time. And we have no way of knowing who's the most delusional. Is it me? Who the fuck knows?!? This is in a time where we have more access to correct information and fact checking than ever before. But how the fuck do you fact check stuff if it's unclear what needs to be fact checked, and what fact checkers are reliable?

I'm sick of both sidsing. If I have no reason to give Putin or Trump the benefit of the doubt, and I don't, then I won't. Oh am I being unfair to some of the most powerful people in the world who don't give a shit about anything other than power? Boohoo, fuck off.

He's not both sidsing. As if it's a competition of whose the most virtuous. He's just explaining what both sides want and their perspective.

At no point is Kisin defending Trump.

Trump thinks the war in Ukraine is an unnecessary cost and wants it ended ASAP, no matter what. He doesn't care about moral implications. He just wants the American government to spend less money. That's, in his mind, what his mission is

Then why was intelligence sharing cut off? Intelligence already obtained doesn't cost any money to pass along. That serves only to weaken Ukraine's position and force a surrender favorable to Russia's side. Also, why does Trump care whether the war continues or not once the US stops sending aid, if cost is the only concern? The war needn't end to minimize cost, and in fact can be a net benefit to our defense contractors who can sell arms to Europe and Ukraine if they can afford them (also increasing government revenue via taxation of wages and profits, protecting jobs, etc.)

On your theory these facts are quite puzzling.


A war is incredibly expensive for everyone. Even those not in the war. Any money (production capacity) in a market diverted away from peaceful production and trade is a loss for everyone. When the Nazis got the brilliant idea to send the Jews to concentation camps and take their money. They brilliantly thought they'd make the German government rich, with all this Jew gold. When the moment a Jew was arrested Germany immediatly lost money. Depite adding that gold to the German coffers. Or rather, wealth. Because that Jew was no longer an active participant in the German economy. It wasn't a brilliant idea. It was dumb. Because Hitler was stupid. Later Idi Amin made the same stupid conclusion when he kicked all the Indians out of Uganda. And now you.

Everyone in the whole world is made more poor because of the war in Ukraine. If there's peace that will, very quickly, financially benefit those who voted for Trump, ni a very direct way.

I suggest you read up on the Broken Window Fallacy


You need to separate GNP and actual wealth generation. GNP is just a proxy for wealth. It's a handy measurement. But if you stare blindly at the number, you might draw the erroneous conclusion that war makes people rich. Or war production makes us rich. It can make a couple of rare individuals slightly better off. But war is almost entirely a destructive, for everyone. It can be justified for lots of different reasons. Very few of them are financial. And in today's modern interconnected market, war is universally bad news for the economy. For everyone's economy.

I think Trump thinks that Ukraine can't win this war. I think Trump thinks that all supporting Ukraine will do is prolong the inevitable. If Russia is going to win, sooner or later, it might as well be sooner. That'll be helped by cutting off intel. I think that's how Trump is reasoning. And just to make this super clear... I don't agree with Trump. I think he's wrong. But explaining why Trump is doing what he's doing, is not the same thing as defending Trump
 
Again who is Putin to tell a sovereign nation can not make trade agreements with Europe?
Again, Putin did not object to any trade agreements. He merely said Ukraine can't have both at the the same time.
You really need to work on reading comprehension and thinking.
And it also can't choose the European trade agreement, otherwise it will be invaded and the people brutality murdered, the children kidnapped, etc.

Ukraine was stupid to give up its nukes. No leader will ever make such a dumb mistake again. Whomever on the Ukraine side agreed to that is a traitor to their nation.

This is the time when Fukuyama wrote "The End of History". I think they can be excused. Keep in mind the extreme amount of money that would have to go to maintain all those nukes. In a country that was dead broke. I think Ukraine just wanted to get rid of the nukes and were happy Russia would take them. I
 
Here's a good even headed Triggernometry video explaining why Trump got angry with Zelensky



I'm so fucking sick of today's media climate. It's not just that we're only exposed to biased news speaking to our base. But today, we're effectively shielded from reality. Unless we make an active effort to see other points of view. And this is harder than ever. Because Youtube and Facebook are invisibly filtering out the stuff you should see, in favour of the stuff you want to see. It's like everyone is delusional at the same time. And we have no way of knowing who's the most delusional. Is it me? Who the fuck knows?!? This is in a time where we have more access to correct information and fact checking than ever before. But how the fuck do you fact check stuff if it's unclear what needs to be fact checked, and what fact checkers are reliable?

I'm sick of both sidsing. If I have no reason to give Putin or Trump the benefit of the doubt, and I don't, then I won't. Oh am I being unfair to some of the most powerful people in the world who don't give a shit about anything other than power? Boohoo, fuck off.

He's not both sidsing. As if it's a competition of whose the most virtuous. He's just explaining what both sides want and their perspective.

At no point is Kisin defending Trump.

Trump thinks the war in Ukraine is an unnecessary cost and wants it ended ASAP, no matter what. He doesn't care about moral implications. He just wants the American government to spend less money. That's, in his mind, what his mission is

Then why was intelligence sharing cut off? Intelligence already obtained doesn't cost any money to pass along. That serves only to weaken Ukraine's position and force a surrender favorable to Russia's side. Also, why does Trump care whether the war continues or not once the US stops sending aid, if cost is the only concern? The war needn't end to minimize cost, and in fact can be a net benefit to our defense contractors who can sell arms to Europe and Ukraine if they can afford them (also increasing government revenue via taxation of wages and profits, protecting jobs, etc.)

On your theory these facts are quite puzzling.


A war is incredibly expensive for everyone. Even those not in the war. Any money (production capacity) in a market diverted away from peaceful production and trade is a loss for everyone. When the Nazis got the brilliant idea to send the Jews to concentation camps and take their money. They brilliantly thought they'd make the German government rich, with all this Jew gold. When the moment a Jew was arrested Germany immediatly lost money. Depite adding that gold to the German coffers. Or rather, wealth. Because that Jew was no longer an active participant in the German economy. It wasn't a brilliant idea. It was dumb. Because Hitler was stupid. Later Idi Amin made the same stupid conclusion when he kicked all the Indians out of Uganda. And now you.

Everyone in the whole world is made more poor because of the war in Ukraine. If there's peace that will, very quickly, financially benefit those who voted for Trump, ni a very direct way.

I suggest you read up on the Broken Window Fallacy


You need to separate GNP and actual wealth generation. GNP is just a proxy for wealth. It's a handy measurement. But if you stare blindly at the number, you might draw the erroneous conclusion that war makes people rich. Or war production makes us rich. It can make a couple of rare individuals slightly better off. But war is almost entirely a destructive, for everyone. It can be justified for lots of different reasons. Very few of them are financial. And in today's modern interconnected market, war is universally bad news for the economy. For everyone's economy.

I think Trump thinks that Ukraine can't win this war. I think Trump thinks that all supporting Ukraine will do is prolong the inevitable. If Russia is going to win, sooner or later, it might as well be sooner. That'll be helped by cutting off intel. I think that's how Trump is reasoning. And just to make this super clear... I don't agree with Trump. I think he's wrong. But explaining why Trump is doing what he's doing, is not the same thing as defending Trump

This is only true if you treat Ukraine and the US as a single economic unit. Using your broken windows analogy, breaking windows enriches window makers and window installers but impoverishes those who had their windows broken. Essentially a transfer of wealth from one group to another, with a net loss if you combine both groups. However, in this case, Ukraine is having its windows broken and the US is the window manufacturer and installer.

Now if Ukraine has peace under Russian occupation and control, I suppose there could be a mutually beneficial economic relationship that can arise from that, but it is very indirect and debatable whether the US would benefit more, and I seriously doubt Trump would even be able to understand that, let alone have performed a cost/benefit analysis. Such an analysis would also require a further calculation on the cost of appeasement in terms of risk of future wars in Europe and the security of other parts of the world such as Taiwan.
 
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Here's a good even headed Triggernometry video explaining why Trump got angry with Zelensky



I'm so fucking sick of today's media climate. It's not just that we're only exposed to biased news speaking to our base. But today, we're effectively shielded from reality. Unless we make an active effort to see other points of view. And this is harder than ever. Because Youtube and Facebook are invisibly filtering out the stuff you should see, in favour of the stuff you want to see. It's like everyone is delusional at the same time. And we have no way of knowing who's the most delusional. Is it me? Who the fuck knows?!? This is in a time where we have more access to correct information and fact checking than ever before. But how the fuck do you fact check stuff if it's unclear what needs to be fact checked, and what fact checkers are reliable?

I'm sick of both sidsing. If I have no reason to give Putin or Trump the benefit of the doubt, and I don't, then I won't. Oh am I being unfair to some of the most powerful people in the world who don't give a shit about anything other than power? Boohoo, fuck off.

He's not both sidsing. As if it's a competition of whose the most virtuous. He's just explaining what both sides want and their perspective.

And treating this as though both perspectives are equally valid misses the point when one side is simply a bully and the other isn't, and I still don't give a single fuck about giving "each side a fair shake" when one side is a bully and the other isn't.
 
Again who is Putin to tell a sovereign nation can not make trade agreements with Europe?
Again, Putin did not object to any trade agreements. He merely said Ukraine can't have both at the the same time.
You really need to work on reading comprehension and thinking.
And it also can't choose the European trade agreement, otherwise it will be invaded and the people brutality murdered, the children kidnapped, etc.
That's patently ridiculous. It is a matter of historical record. Russia was pretty clear. EU is fine, NATO - we will fuck you up!

Ukraine was stupid to give up its nukes. No leader will ever make such a dumb mistake again. Whomever on the Ukraine side agreed to that is a traitor to their nation.
They never had any nukes.
 
I think they can be excused. Keep in mind the extreme amount of money that would have to go to maintain all those nukes
No amount of money could buy these idiots maintenance contracts. They did not have these nukes, they could not maintain them even if they managed to get a hold of them, they could not launch them or even explode right there in Ukraine.
They did not even want them, fucking khohols wanted to sell them.
 
Anyway. The Green Goblin still has not apologized to Trump. He did twit some shit written to him by his british handlers apparently. But that was not much of an apology. Trump administration wants official televised apology.
Who is Putin to tell Ukraine an internationally recognized country member of the UN that it can not make trade agreements with Europe?

Your English appears to be impro0gingy. Is there more than one person posting under Barbos.
Imperialists don’t care about international laws.
 
I think they can be excused. Keep in mind the extreme amount of money that would have to go to maintain all those nukes
No amount of money could buy these idiots maintenance contracts. They did not have these nukes, they could not maintain them even if they managed to get a hold of them, they could not launch them or even explode right there in Ukraine.
They did not even want them, fucking khohols wanted to sell them.
The fact remains though that Russia would not have invaded if they had the nukes.
 
Again who is Putin to tell a sovereign nation can not make trade agreements with Europe?
Again, Putin did not object to any trade agreements. He merely said Ukraine can't have both at the the same time.
You really need to work on reading comprehension and thinking.
Penguin Putin began all this with sizing Crimea formally made part of Ukraine by the agreement Russia signed. Ukraine gave Russia a lease on the naval base and Russia wanted it to be permanent.

Of course there were sham elecitins in Crimea and clams they all wanted to be part of Russia.


The Agreement between Ukraine and Russia on the Black Sea Fleet in Ukraine, widely referred to as the Kharkiv Pact (Ukrainian: Харківський пакт)[1][2] or Kharkov Accords (Russian: Харьковские соглашения),[3][4] was a treaty between Ukraine and Russia whereby the Russian lease on naval facilities in Crimea was extended beyond 2017 until 2042, with an additional five-year renewal option in exchange for a multiyear discounted contract to provide Ukraine with Russian natural gas.[5]


The Partition Treaty on the Status and Conditions of the Black Sea Fleet consists of three bilateral agreements[2] between Russia and Ukraine signed on 28 May 1997 whereby the two countries established two independent national fleets, divided armaments and bases between them,[3][4] and set forth conditions for basing of the Russian Black Sea Fleet in Crimea. The treaty was supplemented by provisions in the Russian–Ukrainian Friendship Treaty, which was signed three days later. Russia unilaterally terminated the Partition Treaty in 2014 after it annexed Crimea.

After Crimea it was the rest of Ukraine. Claiming that Penguin Putin never objected to economic ties and NATO inclusion with Europe is obviously ridiculous considering what Putin and his government said long before and during the war.

Your tactics don't work on any of us here.

One thing is certain, Russia can never be trusted to keep to any agreements. Penguin Putin is like a comic book villain with an army.
 
One thing is certain, Russia can never be trusted to keep to any agreements.
This does seem to be a huge and expanding problem. It's no longer possible to trust major powers like Russia or the USA to keep any agreements.

They'll keep them, even insist on them, as long as the agreements serve the purposes of the oligarchs. When the agreements don't serve their purposes anymore the oligarchs just dismiss them.
Tom
 
It depends on the agreement.

An agreement made by a president is not binding. Presidents routinely invalidate executive agreements and policies made by previous presidents.

The treaty that gave the canal zone back to Panama was approved by congress and is is binding. Trump can not take the canal back. If he tries it s up to the courts to reign him in.
 
This does seem to be a huge and expanding problem.
No shit?
The president of the United States is a Russian asset, plain as day, right out in the open.
Job #1 is to make a mockery of any shred of trust in government.
Then when there is universal agreement that the obstructionist Democrats have destroyed the Country despite Trump's heroic efforts, the "Only I can fix it" trope comes back into play. 2027 version "we cannot afford to hold an election during this time of National crisis."
Done deal.
 
I think they can be excused. Keep in mind the extreme amount of money that would have to go to maintain all those nukes
No amount of money could buy these idiots maintenance contracts. They did not have these nukes, they could not maintain them even if they managed to get a hold of them, they could not launch them or even explode right there in Ukraine.
They did not even want them, fucking khohols wanted to sell them.
The fact remains though that Russia would not have invaded if they had the nukes.
If Ukraine had nukes, they would have been under US/EU sanctions. But again they never had them.
Fucking khohols never had any nukes.
 
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Again who is Putin to tell a sovereign nation can not make trade agreements with Europe?
Again, Putin did not object to any trade agreements. He merely said Ukraine can't have both at the the same time.
You really need to work on reading comprehension and thinking.
Penguin Putin began all this with sizing Crimea formally made part of Ukraine by the agreement Russia signed. Ukraine gave Russia a lease on the naval base and Russia wanted it to be permanent.

Of course there were sham elecitins in Crimea and clams they all wanted to be part of Russia.


The Agreement between Ukraine and Russia on the Black Sea Fleet in Ukraine, widely referred to as the Kharkiv Pact (Ukrainian: Харківський пакт)[1][2] or Kharkov Accords (Russian: Харьковские соглашения),[3][4] was a treaty between Ukraine and Russia whereby the Russian lease on naval facilities in Crimea was extended beyond 2017 until 2042, with an additional five-year renewal option in exchange for a multiyear discounted contract to provide Ukraine with Russian natural gas.[5]


The Partition Treaty on the Status and Conditions of the Black Sea Fleet consists of three bilateral agreements[2] between Russia and Ukraine signed on 28 May 1997 whereby the two countries established two independent national fleets, divided armaments and bases between them,[3][4] and set forth conditions for basing of the Russian Black Sea Fleet in Crimea. The treaty was supplemented by provisions in the Russian–Ukrainian Friendship Treaty, which was signed three days later. Russia unilaterally terminated the Partition Treaty in 2014 after it annexed Crimea.

After Crimea it was the rest of Ukraine. Claiming that Penguin Putin never objected to economic ties and NATO inclusion with Europe is obviously ridiculous considering what Putin and his government said long before and during the war.

Your tactics don't work on any of us here.

One thing is certain, Russia can never be trusted to keep to any agreements. Penguin Putin is like a comic book villain with an army.
No, The West broke every agreement and promise they made. Russia have never broke any agreement.
 
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One thing is certain, Russia can never be trusted to keep to any agreements.
This does seem to be a huge and expanding problem. It's no longer possible to trust major powers like Russia or the USA to keep any agreements.

They'll keep them, even insist on them, as long as the agreements serve the purposes of the oligarchs. When the agreements don't serve their purposes anymore the oligarchs just dismiss them.
Tom
Russia has never broken any agreement. US/EU/NATO did. They even admitted it.
 
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I wonder what the color of the sky is on Barbos' world. I suspect a dirty brown resembling a pile of shit.
 
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