• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

DrZoidberg said:
Trump would like the rest of NATO to pitch in more.
Click to expand...
No, Trump's Russian handlers would like the US to pitch in less, and feel that this objective can best be achieved with minimal pushback from those Americans who value freedom, if it is presented as a case of the rest of NATO taking advantage of American generosity.

The best lies contain a grain of truth.
 
DrZoidberg said:
Much of the donated weapons to Ukraine from EU countries is American military hardware.
Click to expand...
It could hardly be otherwise; NATO is obsessed (for obvious logistical reasons) with standardisation, and the US defence industry has leveraged that to become the major suppliers of hardware to all NATO member states.

There are some big EU military hardware manufacturers, of course - but in those cases, the US is often a buyer of their products, for the exact same standardisation reasons. Typically these technologies fulfil niche roles where an EU manufacturer has a qualitative advantage over similar US products, or has established a near monopoly in NATO that has resisted US encroachment on their speciality.

The following pdf is a little dated (and pre-dates the Ukraine war), but goes into this relationship in more detail on a country-by-country basis, focussing on the US defence relationship with five 'friendly' countries - France, Germany, Italy, the UK, and Sweden:

https://www.iris-france.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Ares-20-Report-EU-DTIB-Sept-2017.pdf

The reliance of EU countries on US military hardware was firmly established (with France as the outlier, who retains the least dependency on US systems, despite home-grown French systems being more expensive), long before the idea of assisting Ukraine against Russian expansionism was even a thing.

Denmark is donating US weapons systems to Ukraine, not because they are US systems, so much as because US systems are Danish systems - they are what Denmark has got.
 
bilby said:
DrZoidberg said:
Trump would like the rest of NATO to pitch in more.
Click to expand...
No, Trump's Russian handlers would like the US to pitch in less, and feel that this objective can best be achieved with minimal pushback from those Americans who value freedom, if it is presented as a case of the rest of NATO taking advantage of American generosity.

The best lies contain a grain of truth.
Click to expand...

Ehe. But the rest of NATO is taking advantage of American generosity.

Europeans have become complacent and assume daddy USA will keep bailing us out. Yes, this fact is exploited by Putin's propaganda.

European countries have generous welfare systems made possible by an underfunded military. That's been the case since WW2. The result is that, as it is now, we cannot defend ourselves against Russia.

My dream scenario is that USA keeps donating as much as they are now, and EU countries match it. If that happened this war could end tomorrow

Right now European parliaments keep passing Ukraine support bills with so many caveats that it takes forever to actually find the weapons and ship them. They're obviously doing this to be seen as helping Ukraine, while putting off spending that money as long as possible. They're hoping that the next government will get stuck with the bill. Its short sighted and cowardly.
 
Last edited:
bilby said:
DrZoidberg said:
Much of the donated weapons to Ukraine from EU countries is American military hardware.
Click to expand...
It could hardly be otherwise; NATO is obsessed (for obvious logistical reasons) with standardisation, and the US defence industry has leveraged that to become the major suppliers of hardware to all NATO member states.

There are some big EU military hardware manufacturers, of course - but in those cases, the US is often a buyer of their products, for the exact same standardisation reasons. Typically these technologies fulfil niche roles where an EU manufacturer has a qualitative advantage over similar US products, or has established a near monopoly in NATO that has resisted US encroachment on their speciality.

The following pdf is a little dated (and pre-dates the Ukraine war), but goes into this relationship in more detail on a country-by-country basis, focussing on the US defence relationship with five 'friendly' countries - France, Germany, Italy, the UK, and Sweden:

https://www.iris-france.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Ares-20-Report-EU-DTIB-Sept-2017.pdf

The reliance of EU countries on US military hardware was firmly established (with France as the outlier, who retains the least dependency on US systems, despite home-grown French systems being more expensive), long before the idea of assisting Ukraine against Russian expansionism was even a thing.

Denmark is donating US weapons systems to Ukraine, not because they are US systems, so much as because US systems are Danish systems - they are what Denmark has got.
Click to expand...

You are just describing what it looks like when a problem is bad and has been going on lile that for far too long
 
ZiprHead said:
Click to expand...

ISW said:
Russian milbloggers reported that Ukrainian forces simultaneously used naval and aerial drones during the Krasnodar Krai strike and overwhelmed Russian defenses, causing a Russian air defense system to accidentally shoot down a Russian helicopter in a friendly fire incident. Several Russian milbloggers claimed on June 21 that Russian friendly fire destroyed a Russian Ka-29 helicopter and the helicopter's crew while defending against Ukrainian drone strikes near Krasnodar Krai.[21] The milbloggers claimed that Russian forces were using helicopters to search for Ukrainian naval drones while Russian air defense systems were simultaneously attempting to shoot down Ukrainian aerial drones and that a Russian Pantsir air defense system accidentally downed a Russian helicopter, reportedly due to a malfunction in the system's Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) system.[22] The milbloggers claimed that Ukrainian forces have previously used missiles to similarly overload Russian air defenses and criticized the Russian military for not improving its IFF systems to prevent these incidents.
Click to expand...
Criminy. IFF is as old as the hills. Can't the Russians do anything right?
 
aupmanyav said:
bilby said:
That depends on whether any of the components of the Russian nuclear arsenal still work. Which is highly unlikely.
Click to expand...
NATO needs to check that before making Moscow a pool of slowly cooling radioactive glass.
Click to expand...
The only situation in which the US launches nukes at Moscow is one in which Putin has either successfully detonated a nuke on the US or ally, or Russia's ICBMs are detected enroute to foreign targets.

In neither scenario will a radioactive hole in the shape of moscow will be embarrassing to the US. It doesn't matter whether those ICBMs are loaded with functional warheads or duds. Russia's provocative act will have justified it.

It is like you (and Putin) refuse to understand what a defensive alliance is.
 
aupmanyav said:
zorq said:
It is like you (and Putin) refuse to understand what a defensive alliance is.
Click to expand...
The defensive alliance is turning Ukraine into pulp. Have some consideration for the people of Ukraine.
Click to expand...
You want to turn them over to a genocidal regime. Where ever the regime go, they leave mass graves behind.
 
aupmanyav said:
zorq said:
It is like you (and Putin) refuse to understand what a defensive alliance is.
Click to expand...
The defensive alliance is turning Ukraine into pulp. Have some consideration for the people of Ukraine.
Click to expand...

The fact that the war is fought on Ukrainian soil is a clue regarding which side is the problem. Hint, it's not the defensive alliance

If the defensive alliance was better funded Putin would stop
 
aupmanyav said:
zorq said:
It is like you (and Putin) refuse to understand what a defensive alliance is.
Click to expand...
The defensive alliance is turning Ukraine into pulp. Have some consideration for the people of Ukraine.
Click to expand...
The Ukrainian people decided to fight. They chose this path. Had they not, they would have voiced their displeasure with their president's actions. After all that Ukraine has endured at the hand of Russian aggression, by and large, they still seem to want to be in this fight.
The path of peace is always preferred but at what price?
That you would bow your head and let your neighbor slip a yoke around your neck is your choice.
 
Belligerent just like me.

So Putin and Kim are best buds now. This alliance of shared munitions and military technology has pissed off South Korea. Putin has commented that how North Korea might use whatever weapons they would receive from Russia would be out of Russia's control.
Kim has said Russia is North Korea's "most honest friend". Did you hear that, China? This threat to South Korea could push a deepening commitment between South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, and possibly the Philippines. Watch to see if the Philippines is invited to the NATO summit next month. Beyond that, it is a lasting threat to the United States if and when Russia transfers its military, specifically ballistic technology to North Korea.

“They are escalating the situation, apparently expecting that we will get scared at some point, and at the same time, they say that they want to inflict a strategic defeat on Russia on the battlefield. For Russia, it will mean an end to its statehood, an end to the millennium-long history of the Russian state. And a question arises: Why should we be afraid? Isn’t it better, then, to go to the end?”
-Vladimir Putin
Click to expand...
I suspect this narrative is being churned out of the Russian propaganda machine to the Russian public. We'll know soon enough.

“this is not about geography... If Russia is attacking or about to attack from its territory into Ukraine, it only makes sense to allow Ukraine to hit back against the forces that are hitting it from across the border.”
-US National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan, June 17 2024.
Click to expand...
It's all in how the "about to" is assessed. I can see where this would be on a permission to attack basis without regards to location of target. If Ukraine is having trouble fielding troops and their lines are being stretched, they will have to be able to strike more targets within Russia. They cannot continue to operate while Russia enjoys sanctuary so close to the border. Ukrainian troops can continue to get pummeled from the air. Ukrainian F-16s will have to operate in a more dangerous environment as Russia stages air defense out of range from US authorized attack but still able to cover Ukrainian air space. This is ridiculous. Biden thinks he is preventing an escalation when he is in actuality just dragging out a regional conflict. Quick action should be the order. It will keep the Russian propaganda machine one step behind and work to turn the ire of the Russian public where it belongs, on Putin.
ISW has a couple good maps of targets within ATACMS range and Russian air defense coverage within Ukraine. Russia can currently cover almost half of Ukraine with their air defense batteries. Allowing Ukraine to strike within Russia to ATACMS range will cut that in half.

Time and time again Ukraine has shown how it can deter Russian aggression when allowed to use weapons provided effectively. My concern is Ukraine is running out of soldiers for such a long line to protect and their best course of action at this time is to isolate and starve out Crimea.
 
Russia's attacks on freedom of religion in Ukraine. perhaps those oh so religious MAGA politicians opposing military aid to Ukraine will notice these atrocities.

....
Since the full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022 Russian forces have been responsible for damaging or destroying at least 660 churches and other religious structures, including at least 206 belonging to Protestants.1 The largest number of Protestant churches damaged or destroyed have been Pentecostal (94), Evangelical Christian-Baptist (60), and Seventh-day Adventist (27).2 And what Russians have not destroyed or seized they have closed and banned for purposes of worship.3 For example, in the portions of the Luhansk Region under Russian and pro-Russian separatist control not a single Protestant church remains open for worship, and in Russian-occupied Donetsk Region, only a handful.
.....

The Assault on Protestants and Other Minority Faiths in Russian-Occupied Ukraine

Since the full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022 Russian forces have been responsible for damaging or destroying at least 660 churches and other religious structures, including at least 206 belonging to Protestants.1 The largest number of Protestant churches damaged or destroyed have...
digitalcommons.georgefox.edu digitalcommons.georgefox.edu
 
In other news, earlier this month ground was broken on what is to be NATO's largest air base, Mihail Kogălniceanu Air Base in eastern Romania. To be built will be two runways and over 10,000 NATO personnel and their family will be based there with all the housing and support facilities that go along with. It will be the headquarters for NATO Allied Powers in Europe. This is in response to Russia's annexation of Crimea.
 
www.theguardian.com

Russian bomb attack on Kharkiv kills at least three and wounds 52

President Zelenskiy calls for ‘bold decisions from our partners’ following aerial assault on Ukraine’s second city
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
At least three people were killed in a Russian bombing attack on Ukraine’s second city, Kharkiv, on Saturday afternoon, Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskiy said.

Another 52 people were wounded in the attack, Kharkiv mayor Ihor Terekhov said. Four aerial bombs were launched against the city, damaging residential buildings, shops and public transport stops, said Kharkiv’s regional governor Oleh Syniehubov. He said four of the wounded were in serious condition.

“This Russian terror with guided aerial bombs must and can be stopped. Bold decisions from our partners are needed so that we can destroy Russian terrorists and Russian combat aircraft where they are,” Zelenskiy wrote on the messaging app Telegram.
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom