How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[barbos]

I'm still trying to understand why this is something that the U.S. should handle. I don't think that the U.S. should act as the world's police. It rightly should be a concern of the E.U. The E.U. is now a "big boy" with a population much greater than the U.S.

Well, US started the whole damn party. Of course they want to participate.

 

[barbos]

Which dumbass? The columnist obviously knows Nord Stream 2 is finished and only waiting for certification, because he says so. The other guy who's twitter satire he quotes may or may not, but in any case it's hardly the point.

The whole damn thing was 90% 3 years ago when US realized that they can make money by selling their gas to EU

Allies: “Yeah, I get it. Okay, so would you be willing to, I don’t know, not build that pipeline with Russia while [Russian President Vladimir] Putin is holding a gun to Kyiv’s head?”

Only in a Russian propaganda-infested mind is an American diplomat using the F-word somehow supposed to be a worse "incident" than the fact that Russian intelligence services are apparently listening on said diplomat's calls. If the FSB or GRU is listening to Americans in Ukraine, they're sure as hell listening to Germans as well.

I did not say what was worse. But if you are interested everybody listens to everybody so the whole comparison is kinda pointless. The point was, US did not care what EU thought.

 

[barbos]

I'm also against us being the world's police. However, IMO, I really think that the civilized world needs to come to together to commonly promote that it isn't acceptable for one country to take over another when there is a dispute.

I totally agree. US should not occupy Ukraine because it (US) has a (never ending) dispute with Russia. And may I also humbly remind again Iraq, Cuba, Yugoslavia, Syria, Lybia, Chile, Vietnam.

 

[Jayjay]

Ukraine dosn't owe Russia anything.

Not true. over 25 years Gazprom and other oil government controlled companies gave Ukraine $250bil in the form of discounts. Belarus got $150bil

That's not how discounts work. If I sell you a bicycle at a $50 discount, you get your bicycle and that $50 bucks remains in your wallet. You don't owe it to me in perpetuity.

As for the ridiculous interpretation that Crimea was "rented" to Ukraine, there is no such treaty and it remained as part of Ukraine during the dissolution of the Soviet Union. If anything, Russia should start paying rent to Ukraine for it.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Maybe Russia should be invited to join NATO.

Love this idea! However, it could be a small problem for Russia to qualify. The eligibility requirements to join NATO:
1. functioning democratic political system based on a market economy;
2. fair treatment of minority populations;
3. a commitment to resolve conflicts peacefully;
4. They must be good neighbors and respect sovereignty outside their borders.

I think that #1, 3, and 4 might be a challenge for Russia to adhere to!

Ukraine does not satisfy any of the requirements and yet they are on the path to be in NATO.

Please elaborate. The Ukrainian government is a semi-presidential representative democratic republic with a vibrant multi-party system. Their cabinet of Ministers have executive power. Yes, there is deep graft in their system and problems. But you could make the case that they are more democratic than the US. They are far more democratic than Mother Russia! You can't have a democracy with a dictator at the top! They have not stolen land from any of their bordering neighbors. Regarding treatment of minorities: I'm not going to engage. You believe that their government are Nazis and are actively throwing Russian speakers into camps and are having them hung. This is so preposterous that I won't engage it with you (unless you'd like to provide some evidence for these claims).

 

[Elixir]

Russia would never honor any agreement requiring them to respect borders. That’s not what they do.

 

[Jayjay]

Russian guy reviews modern russian and ukrainian history schoolbooks.
Russian ones are pretty bad, but ukrainian ones are just redunculous.
Made up names/testimonies/documents, edited and misattributed photographs, complete omission of well known and accepted but inconvenient facts, flat out lies.
And yes, 300 thousands years old Ukrs.

North Korea on steroids. And that has been going on since as early as 2001.
At least it explains the story my neighbor lady told me about her relatives in Ukraine where one of the younger kids told her he wants to kill .... russians.

And so this justification for an invasion? Seriously, I get your points, but you’ve yet to justify a war.

This is an explanation for the present state of the affairs where "ukrainian" children want to kill russians.
But if you ask me, authors of these books should be brought to justice.

It's unfortunate, but understandable from people who are at war with Russia. The anti-Russian sentiment is not the root cause, it's a reaction to the current situation.

 

[barbos]

Ukraine dosn't owe Russia anything.

Not true. over 25 years Gazprom and other oil government controlled companies gave Ukraine $250bil in the form of discounts. Belarus got $150bil

That's not how discounts work. If I sell you a bicycle at a $50 discount, you get your bicycle and that $50 bucks remains in your wallet. You don't owe it to me in perpetuity.

Actually it works exactly like I wrote. Russia gave discounts on the condition of good behaviour. Now you can make a point how much of good behavior was that worth but it certainly more than zero. In my opinion, You pay support for 20 years you should get 20 years of good behavior after you stop, at least. In reality there Ukraine has always been shitty toward Russia even while getting support. I personally think russian expectations of getting something in return were foolish.

So, $250bil and you can have Ukraine with all their nazis, do we have a deal?

As for the ridiculous interpretation that Crimea was "rented" to Ukraine, there is no such treaty and it remained as part of Ukraine durng the dissolution of the Soviet Union. If anything, Russia should start paying rent to Ukraine for it.

I explained million times, Crimea was obtained by Ukraine illegally.
Yes it was de facto rented. The split was simply never finalized.
And regardless of the history, people of Crimea voted to get out of the country which promised to hang them for being russians.

 

[barbos]

It's unfortunate, but understandable from people who are at war with Russia. The anti-Russian sentiment is not the root cause, it's a reaction to the current situation.

Nope! Try again. That shit started pretty much after they got independence and never stopped.
In fact that process started in all former USSR republics. They thought it was a great idea to build their national identity on trashing Russia equating it with Soviet Union.

Baltic States had pretty comical incidents while doing so.

 

[TV and credit cards]

I'm still trying to understand why this is something that the U.S. should handle. I don't think that the U.S. should act as the world's police. It rightly should be a concern of the E.U. The E.U. is now a "big boy" with a population much greater than the U.S.

I doubt it will become something the US will handle unless things get real ugly. The US needs to remain focused on China. Japan needs to be focused on China as well as Australia. We've been telling the EU to stand up defensively for decades. These comments stayed under the radar until Trump said it in his own tactless way. Only then it became news.
I just hope Xi isn't watching things unfold in the Ukraine and experiencing Shrinky-dink Syndrome (koro) over Taiwan.

 

[barbos]

Maybe Russia should be invited to join NATO.

Love this idea! However, it could be a small problem for Russia to qualify. The eligibility requirements to join NATO:
1. functioning democratic political system based on a market economy;
2. fair treatment of minority populations;
3. a commitment to resolve conflicts peacefully;
4. They must be good neighbors and respect sovereignty outside their borders.

I think that #1, 3, and 4 might be a challenge for Russia to adhere to!

Ukraine does not satisfy any of the requirements and yet they are on the path to be in NATO.

Please elaborate. The Ukrainian government is a semi-presidential representative democratic republic with a vibrant multi-party system. Their cabinet of Ministers have executive power. Yes, there is deep graft in their system and problems. But you could make the case that they are more democratic than the US. They are far more democratic than Mother Russia! You can't have a democracy with a dictator at the top! They have not stolen land from any of their bordering neighbors. Regarding treatment of minorities: I'm not going to engage. You believe that their government are Nazis and are actively throwing Russian speakers into camps and are having them hung. This is so preposterous that I won't engage it with you (unless you'd like to provide some evidence for these claims).

I can give you 1. In the sense that they are better than Russia.
But they do have opposition leader under arrest for being .... pro-russian. Journalists get murdered too.

No, it's not preposterous. It's public record, one of the adviser to the government publicly suggested hanging crimeans. And he has not lost his job over it. He is doing fine right now

 

[Harry Bosch]

Maybe Russia should be invited to join NATO.

Love this idea! However, it could be a small problem for Russia to qualify. The eligibility requirements to join NATO:
1. functioning democratic political system based on a market economy;
2. fair treatment of minority populations;
3. a commitment to resolve conflicts peacefully;
4. They must be good neighbors and respect sovereignty outside their borders.

I think that #1, 3, and 4 might be a challenge for Russia to adhere to!

Ukraine does not satisfy any of the requirements and yet they are on the path to be in NATO.

Please elaborate. The Ukrainian government is a semi-presidential representative democratic republic with a vibrant multi-party system. Their cabinet of Ministers have executive power. Yes, there is deep graft in their system and problems. But you could make the case that they are more democratic than the US. They are far more democratic than Mother Russia! You can't have a democracy with a dictator at the top! They have not stolen land from any of their bordering neighbors. Regarding treatment of minorities: I'm not going to engage. You believe that their government are Nazis and are actively throwing Russian speakers into camps and are having them hung. This is so preposterous that I won't engage it with you (unless you'd like to provide some evidence for these claims).

I can give you 1. In the sense that they are better than Russia.
But they do have opposition leader under arrest for being .... pro-russian. Journalists get murdered too.

No, it's not preposterous. It's public record, one of the adviser to the government publicly suggested hanging crimeans. And he has not lost his job over it. He is doing fine right now

You would condemn an entire country due to one adviser to the Ukranian government publicly suggested hanging Crimeans? Do you follow US politics?

 

[barbos]

Maybe Russia should be invited to join NATO.

Love this idea! However, it could be a small problem for Russia to qualify. The eligibility requirements to join NATO:
1. functioning democratic political system based on a market economy;
2. fair treatment of minority populations;
3. a commitment to resolve conflicts peacefully;
4. They must be good neighbors and respect sovereignty outside their borders.

I think that #1, 3, and 4 might be a challenge for Russia to adhere to!

Ukraine does not satisfy any of the requirements and yet they are on the path to be in NATO.

Please elaborate. The Ukrainian government is a semi-presidential representative democratic republic with a vibrant multi-party system. Their cabinet of Ministers have executive power. Yes, there is deep graft in their system and problems. But you could make the case that they are more democratic than the US. They are far more democratic than Mother Russia! You can't have a democracy with a dictator at the top! They have not stolen land from any of their bordering neighbors. Regarding treatment of minorities: I'm not going to engage. You believe that their government are Nazis and are actively throwing Russian speakers into camps and are having them hung. This is so preposterous that I won't engage it with you (unless you'd like to provide some evidence for these claims).

I can give you 1. In the sense that they are better than Russia.
But they do have opposition leader under arrest for being .... pro-russian. Journalists get murdered too.

No, it's not preposterous. It's public record, one of the adviser to the government publicly suggested hanging crimeans. And he has not lost his job over it. He is doing fine right now

You would condemn an entire country due to one adviser to the Ukranian government publicly suggested hanging Crimeans? Do you follow US politics?

I would certainly condemn the whole government for not kicking him out.
That's not he only thing I have against ukrainian regime.

 

[SLD]

I'm still trying to understand why this is something that the U.S. should handle. I don't think that the U.S. should act as the world's police. It rightly should be a concern of the E.U. The E.U. is now a "big boy" with a population much greater than the U.S.

I doubt it will become something the US will handle unless things get real ugly. The US needs to remain focused on China. Japan needs to be focused on China as well as Australia. We've been telling the EU to stand up defensively for decades. These comments stayed under the radar until Trump said it in his own tactless way. Only then it became news.
I just hope Xi isn't watching things unfold in the Ukraine and experiencing Shrinky-dink Syndrome (koro) over Taiwan.

That is exactly the scenario that the Pentagon is now openly working on. They fear that this is, in part, a distraction that they can use to invade Taiwan. The general feeling is that at their last summit, this scenario was discussed and possibly even planned. The US would have a tough time responding to both threats at once.

 

[Elixir]

Actually it works exactly like I wrote. Russia gave discounts on the condition of good behaviour.

Where are those conditions codified? Who determines how “good” behavior is?
I’m guessing there is no treaty and Russia decides if they’re being “good”.

 

[Jayjay]

Ukrainian piece of shit historian takes WW2 photo of Russian children in finnish concentration camp, accurately cuts part of the photo with a board with finnish warning in it leaving only the part in russian, calls it ukrainian children in russian concentration camp and puts it in a schoolbook.

That photo has an interesting history. Apparently it became iconic in Soviet Russia to depict all fascist concentration camp, so the Finnish text was usually cropped out. After all, USSR and Finland were supposed to be best friends during cold war so there was no need to unnecessarily propagandize against Finland. It's much more likely that the authors of the Ukrainian history textbook just used the cropped version and weren't aware of the context. But there is no reason to think they did the cropping. It's still a hugely incompetent and unprofessional thing for a textbook author to use an image without being aware of when and where it was taken though.

What does the caption say? Something about 1930s, but that's false, the picture is taken in 1944.

 

[SLD]

So war is the solution?

Education is the solution, but you don't want to be educated, do you?

An education from you is exactly what I am requesting. Please explain to me why an invasion of Ukraine by Russia is justified. I’m not even disagreeing with you. I truly don’t know what your support for this is based upon. You just keep ranting that we are all ignorant and have swallowed propaganda. Ok. I will indeed admit ignorance. I do not know why war is the appropriate response here. Please explain.

 

[barbos]

So war is the solution?

Education is the solution, but you don't want to be educated, do you?

An education from you is exactly what I am requesting. Please explain to me why an invasion of Ukraine by Russia is justified. I’m not even disagreeing with you. I truly don’t know what your support for this is based upon. You just keep ranting that we are all ignorant and have swallowed propaganda. Ok. I will indeed admit ignorance. I do not know why war is the appropriate response here. Please explain.

You are assuming and very fixated on it that I advocate an invasion.
What is the reason for this fixation?

Anyway.
Countries invade other countries all the time. US invaded Iraq - illegaly. Yugoslavia- illegally. Syria - illegaly. Afghanistan was legal, I can give you that.
Why can't Russia invade Ukraine?
There are way better reasons/justifications for Russia to invade Ukraine than US had for invading Iraq. I would prefer education but you clearly don't want to be educated. So consider invasion as a last option.

I posted a video earlier with prof. Mearsheimer. You should really watch it. In fact watch his other videos they are great regardless whether or not you agree with him.

 

[Jayjay]

Maybe Russia should be invited to join NATO.

Love this idea! However, it could be a small problem for Russia to qualify. The eligibility requirements to join NATO:
1. functioning democratic political system based on a market economy;
2. fair treatment of minority populations;
3. a commitment to resolve conflicts peacefully;
4. They must be good neighbors and respect sovereignty outside their borders.

I think that #1, 3, and 4 might be a challenge for Russia to adhere to!

Ukraine does not satisfy any of the requirements and yet they are on the path to be in NATO.

Please elaborate. The Ukrainian government is a semi-presidential representative democratic republic with a vibrant multi-party system. Their cabinet of Ministers have executive power. Yes, there is deep graft in their system and problems. But you could make the case that they are more democratic than the US. They are far more democratic than Mother Russia! You can't have a democracy with a dictator at the top! They have not stolen land from any of their bordering neighbors. Regarding treatment of minorities: I'm not going to engage. You believe that their government are Nazis and are actively throwing Russian speakers into camps and are having them hung. This is so preposterous that I won't engage it with you (unless you'd like to provide some evidence for these claims).

I can give you 1. In the sense that they are better than Russia.
But they do have opposition leader under arrest for being .... pro-russian. Journalists get murdered too.

No, it's not preposterous. It's public record, one of the adviser to the government publicly suggested hanging crimeans. And he has not lost his job over it. He is doing fine right now

You would condemn an entire country due to one adviser to the Ukranian government publicly suggested hanging Crimeans? Do you follow US politics?

Maybe Russia should be invited to join NATO.

Love this idea! However, it could be a small problem for Russia to qualify. The eligibility requirements to join NATO:
1. functioning democratic political system based on a market economy;
2. fair treatment of minority populations;
3. a commitment to resolve conflicts peacefully;
4. They must be good neighbors and respect sovereignty outside their borders.

I think that #1, 3, and 4 might be a challenge for Russia to adhere to!

Ukraine does not satisfy any of the requirements and yet they are on the path to be in NATO.

Please elaborate. The Ukrainian government is a semi-presidential representative democratic republic with a vibrant multi-party system. Their cabinet of Ministers have executive power. Yes, there is deep graft in their system and problems. But you could make the case that they are more democratic than the US. They are far more democratic than Mother Russia! You can't have a democracy with a dictator at the top! They have not stolen land from any of their bordering neighbors. Regarding treatment of minorities: I'm not going to engage. You believe that their government are Nazis and are actively throwing Russian speakers into camps and are having them hung. This is so preposterous that I won't engage it with you (unless you'd like to provide some evidence for these claims).

I can give you 1. In the sense that they are better than Russia.
But they do have opposition leader under arrest for being .... pro-russian. Journalists get murdered too.

No, it's not preposterous. It's public record, one of the adviser to the government publicly suggested hanging crimeans. And he has not lost his job over it. He is doing fine right now

A certain high-ranking Russian official also once said that Georgian president Saakashvili should be hanged by his balls. He hasn't lost his job over it either.

 

[Elixir]

Ukraine first declared its independence with the invasion of Bolsheviks in late 1917. ... With the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991, Ukraine became an independent state, formalized with a referendum on December 1,1991. AFAIK there was no written condition that Ukraine had to behave in a manner deemed "good" by Russia or suffer re-invasion and occupation...

US invaded Iraq - illegaly. Yugoslavia- illegally. Syria - illegaly. Afghanistan was legal, I can give you that.

And how many of them is the US occupying?
Let me add them up for you:
ZERO
Whereas Russia is still illegally occupying Crimea, is occupying Belarus and intends to illegally occupy Ukraine under the pretext that they are a threat to Russia. Kinda like if the US decided Canada was a threat.