How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[barbos]

Please specify who "she" is and what she said exactly? With links to sources.

It was long time ago, I don't remember her name. And she did say all of that.
It was not such a big deal, I mean as if someone did not know that already.

I am really surprised that you think it's a big deal. Even wikipedia admits that USAID has a problem of being CIA infested, forget about State Department.

And Nuland with Right Sector? And that sex video of former russian prime minister? I posted it years ago, probably before 2014. And not so secret visit of CIA director to Ukraine and then ukrainians all of a sudden changing russian "separatists" to "terrorists" It all hapened, it just was not reported to you. It will be..... in 50 years but not now. It was well reported in Russia, russian propaganda would not miss that.
You can talk about democracy all you want but 145 millions of people simply don't trust you at all. THEY DON'T TRUST YOU!


I can spend time and find 10 year old links and it would be in Russian to which you say - that's fabrication. Or better ignore it like you did at the time and doing now.

So, don't ask for links. And start paying attention to the current ones. American journalists and professors saying the same thing I am saying.

React to the links/videos I post NOW.
Croatia is OUT! I posted it yesterday - zero reactions from you.

 

[Jayjay]

So what? There was a lot of chaos after WW2 when Russia annexed various plots of land to itself.

Sorry to disappoint you, but that's how wars work. You win - you get some land.
So for that reason Japanese moaning over these islands is unwarranted.
US gave it to Russia as pay for entering a War which Japan lost.
Same with Europe. Russia got stuff it lost during WW1 back and some more .... from you You probably made a right move to switch sides in the end of WW2, otherwise you would have been in the same position as Baltic States
All agreed with GB/USA. There was no chaos, it was all discussed and agreed upon in Yalta which is ironically in Crimea
You want to get what you lost? Make Russia lose WW3.

Russia lost the Cold War but that didn't seem to count. Technically, you don't get some land in wars. You occupy land during war, and you may or may not get to keep that land (or get some unoccupied land as a bonus) after the war in a peace treaty. But peace treaties are not the only kind of treaties. Ukraine got to keep Crimea based on treaties it had with Soviet Union, and because they agreed to nuclear disarmament. Ukraine kept its end of the bargain (giving up on nukes), Russia didn't.

Ukraine was never going to join NATO

Bucharest memorandum disagrees.

Bucharest memorandum doesn't mention NATO either way so I don't know what you mean by that. I was referring to the facts on the ground. Ukraine was not in any negotiations to join NATO, and popular support to do so was minimal. It's just an ex post facto excuse that Russian propagandists use to justify their annexation and invasion... which in turn sharply increased public sentiment for joining NATO in Ukraine (although it still isn't likely by any means).

 

[barbos]

Russia lost the Cold War but that didn't seem to count.

Actually it did. Russia (Soviet Union) lost rather tight control over Eastern Europe and then dissolved. And Cold "War" is not a war. I wish WW2 was cold and my grandfather did not have to perish without a trace.

 

[barbos]

Bucharest memorandum doesn't mention NATO either way

Incorrect!

2008 Bucharest summit - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[barbos]

Nino Burjanadze - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

She was a closest ally of Saakashvili during and after revolution of 2003.
After 2008 war accused Saakashvili in that War and went into opposition.
Her talk about American money I can't find but it was a passing remark in some of her criticism of Saakashvili. Again, nobody in Russia was shocked by such revelation.

She is basically sane Angella Merkel style politician. Saakashvili is a batshit crazy Hitler style populist who happened to play democracy card, but really just wanted to stay in power by changing constitution to suit his ambitions. And yes, Saakashvili was handpicked by US, he is a US trained lawyer who worked in US. Go figure.
Both are main figures of 2003 revolution.

 

[barbos]

Телеканал CNN обозначил Харьков российским городом

Американский телеканал CNN в прямом эфире обозначил Харьков российским городом в сюжете о военных учениях России.

russian.rt.com

CNN journalists and their archenemy Geography

 

[Copernicus]

Bucharest memorandum doesn't mention NATO either way

Incorrect!

2008 Bucharest summit - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The confusion here comes from barbos, who used the term "Bucharest memo", which is easily confused with "Budapest memo". Barbos was really referring to the  2008 Bucharest summit. There is no "Bucharest Memo". In my earlier post above, I was taken in by the confusion and referred to the "Bucharest Memo", when I was really intending a comment on the 1994 "Budapest Memo". The Bucharest Summit did discuss NATO membership for Ukraine and Georgia, but no such plan was ever proposed. Instead, NATO has moved to cooperate more closely with Ukraine and Georgia without offering any membership plan. They do not rule out NATO membership in the future, but that is not currently on the table. Again, there was no "Bucharest Memo". That was a confusion that barbos introduced.

 

[Copernicus]

Телеканал CNN обозначил Харьков российским городом

Американский телеканал CNN в прямом эфире обозначил Харьков российским городом в сюжете о военных учениях России.

russian.rt.com

CNN journalists and their archenemy Geography

That's weird. I listened to the CNN clip of Amanpour's report several times, and the is no mention of Kharkiv (Russian name "Kharkov"). I doubt that barbos listened to the English. He just found this on RT. So I don't know where they got this idea that a CNN journalist (not the whole network) somehow misspoke about the location of Kharkiv. Maybe they tweeted out the wrong news clip in their haste to make fun of CNN?

 

[TV and credit cards]

Croatia is OUT!
Their president blasted Biden for the crap he is doing in Ukraine and said Croatia wants no part in this escalation.

Is not democracy and pluralism great?

And their foreign minister, Gordan Grlić-Radman came back and said the president does not speak for Croatia, he speaks for himself.
Croatian troop deployment is controlled by the defense ministry and approved by parliament.

 

[Copernicus]

Croatia is OUT!
Their president blasted Biden for the crap he is doing in Ukraine and said Croatia wants no part in this escalation.

Is not democracy and pluralism great?

And their foreign minister, Gordan Grlić-Radman came back and said the president does not speak for Croatia, he speaks for himself.
Croatian troop deployment is controlled by the defense ministry and approved by parliament.

Again, details not supplied to the Russian public. Half-truths and misinformation. Barbos likely does not understand the extent to which he is influenced by the propaganda, since he has access to Western web cites. Still, I think that most of his information is filtered through Russian media, which tends not to have the same diversity of information that you can get in countries with a freer press.

 

[TV and credit cards]

I thought this was a very good article that spells out Russia’s concerns, how we got to where we are today with regards to their deployment of forces, and the action Russia is likely to take.

Moscow’s Compellence Strategy

 

[barbos]

And their foreign minister, Gordan Grlić-Radman came back and said the president does not speak for Croatia, he speaks for himself.
Croatian troop deployment is controlled by the defense ministry and approved by parliament.

Weird how all these ceremonial presidents are not so pro-NATO.
reminded me Czech president too. Same with a lot of retired generals. Must have really retired without board of directors at LM or CNN contributor positions.

By the way, don't want to check but I think minister of defense confirmed that Croatia will not send their soldiers anywhere. LOL, president is actually supreme commander of their military. Weird setup they have. CIA should overthrow this president.

Sorry man, but it IS significant. CIA should pay more attention to these figureheads which has no power and speak what they think not what they are told by State Department.

yeah, and you have not commented on the head of German Navy.


[removed video repeat]

 

[zorq]

Remember when Putin complained to Obama about the news stories US media was putting out. And how Obama had to remind Putin that the US government doesn't actually control the media in the US? Because that was something that Putin forgot after intimidating all Russian mass media to toe the Goverment line around 2001-2002? The US media isn't afraid to report the truth. Media in the US gets special constitutional protections so they can tell almost any story they want to. So why is so much of the US media reporting on the aggressiveness of Russia and not on the aggressiveness of NATO? Maybe because the aggressive party is really (and not so secretly) Russia?

Barbos, you seem like a reasonable person on most topics that don't involve Russia, which is interesting because you are so irrational when it comes to Russia. You are completely unable to admit that Russia's aggressive asshole behavior toward it's neighbors could cause them to have a negative opinion of Russia. This is a fundamental denial of reality. Especially when one considers that these neighbors in recent history actively chose to separate themselves from Russia/Soviet Union because they didn't like being conquered by Russia.

People don't like to be subjugated and pushed around and bullies who do this are disliked by their victims. This should be a lesson you learned in kindergarten, but here you are insisting that the only reason Russia's neighbors don't like Russia is because the US paid them.

When people point out that you have likely been fooled by propaganda, you childishly insist, "No, you are!" But you have admitted on multiple occasions to believing Russian media over western media despite the total control the Russian government has over it's mass media and remarkably independent (if largely corporatist) nature of Media in most Western countries. You have never shown ANY introspection or doubt regarding the stories Russia wants to feed you. But I think that if you ask most of the other people in this thread, they will acknowledge the deficiencies of the media outlets that they regularly use.

Your total confidence in your "Russia did nothing wrong and never ever will do anything wrong," arguments actually makes you less believable. You come across as oblivious. You come across like a Fox News Republican. I bet you that every person in this thread who thought Obama was a decent US president can point out at least a couple real serious things they think he did wrong. But Fox News Republicans are loyal to their tribe to a fault. You come across no differently. You stink of the same social conditioning. Can you prove me wrong?

 

[TV and credit cards]

And their foreign minister, Gordan Grlić-Radman came back and said the president does not speak for Croatia, he speaks for himself.
Croatian troop deployment is controlled by the defense ministry and approved by parliament.

Weird how all these ceremonial presidents are not so pro-NATO.
reminded me Czech president too. Same with a lot of retired generals. Must have really retired without board of directors at LM or CNN contributor positions.

By the way, don't want to check but I think minister of defense confirmed that Croatia will not send their soldiers anywhere. LOL, president is actually supreme commander of their military. Weird setup they have. CIA should overthrow this president.

Sorry man, but it IS significant. CIA should pay more attention to these figureheads which has no power and speak what they think not what they are told by State Department.

yeah, and you have not commented on the head of German Navy.


[removed video repeat]

All I can find on Croatia is the president and parliament have a bitter relationship and aside from the comments I’ve mentioned, I can find nothing on any comments by the defense minister.

Regarding the video you posted, I watched it and liked it for the info I could research. Specifically more detail about James Baker’s “not one more inch” comment. What was spoken is not what was written is not what was ultimately signed.
It’s not that Russia does not have legitimate concerns, it’s how Russia goes about solving its problems.

Ukraine has been building its defenses. If Russia does not invade, they will increasingly be a problem for Moscow. If your country does not invade or manage to install a Lukashenko like puppet, wouldn’t it benefit Russia to at least have Ukraine restrained by the NATO treaty?

 

[Gospel]

That depends on how many NATO treaties have been dishonored of late.

 

[barbos]

What was spoken is not what was written is not what was ultimately signed.

Does not matter. He said it.

Ukraine has been building its defenses. If Russia does not invade, they will increasingly be a problem for Moscow.

That's laughable. You sent them bunch of antitank rockets, cool. You are fooling yourself the same way you fooled yourself about afghan army. Nobody is going to fight Russian invasion and these shiny weapons will end up in Africa. That's not me saying it, that's former members of Azof battalion (nazi)
Ukraine has no chance, none to mount any defense against Russia and they know it.

If your country does not invade or manage to install a Lukashenko like puppet, wouldn’t it benefit Russia to at least have Ukraine restrained by the NATO treaty?

First of all how is someone like Lukashenko is good for Russia?
Second of all, what the hell is that? Restrained by NATO?
NATO membership means fucking nukes on the border of Russia.
It means constant harassment from NATO planes. It means moving all military installations to other places.

 

[barbos]

I watched it and liked it for the info I could research. Specifically more detail about James Baker’s “not one more inch” comment. What was spoken is not what was written is not what was ultimately signed.
It’s not that Russia does not have legitimate concerns, it’s how Russia goes about solving its problems.

You completely missed the point of the video. So try again.

 

[laughing dog]

If barbos' contributions to this thread accurately reflect Russian (i.e. Putin's) feelings, then there is no chance of a peaceful resolution without leaving the Ukrainian people royally screwed.

Actually there is and it was mentioned in the video I posted.

You need to actually point out it or describe it.

Still no response to this even though barbos has 10 responses subsequent to this.

Which suggests he simply pulled his response right out of his ass, again.

 

[Elixir]

If barbos' contributions to this thread accurately reflect Russian (i.e. Putin's) feelings, then there is no chance of a peaceful resolution without leaving the Ukrainian people royally screwed.

Actually there is and it was mentioned in the video I posted.

You need to actually point out it or describe it.

Still no response to this even though barbos has 10 responses subsequent to this.

Which suggests he simply pulled his response right out of his ass, again.

Well, he doesn’t want to say straight up that The Solution is to let Pootey dictate what everyone else should do.

 

[TV and credit cards]

I watched it and liked it for the info I could research. Specifically more detail about James Baker’s “not one more inch” comment. What was spoken is not what was written is not what was ultimately signed.
It’s not that Russia does not have legitimate concerns, it’s how Russia goes about solving its problems.

You completely missed the point of the video. So try again.

No, I got it. The title kind of hints at the content. I simply addressed what interested me. Did you read the article linked in my post #851? It's fair and informative.

You're looking for comment on the former German Navy Chief?

Speaking at an event in India on Friday, Vice Adm. Kay-Achim Schönbach had said Ukraine would not regain the Crimean Peninsula, which Russia annexed in 2014. Schönbach also said it was important to have Russia on the same side against China, and suggested that Russian President Vladimir Putin deserved “respect.”

What of them? I do not disagree that we should be on the same side against China. In time, we may very well be out of necessity. I'm sure even you are under no illusion that China is no friend of Russia. Russia is a useful tool for China.

Here's a bit on Belarus: Chairman of the All-Belarusian People's Assembly

The Belarusian leader Aliaksandr Lukashenka announced on January 24 that he was moving a “whole contingent of the army” toward the southern border, close to Ukraine.

This was done as part of joint drills with Russia announced a “long time ago,” and was decided to protect the border, where “Ukrainians have begun to gather troops [there]. I don’t understand why.”

In truth, the joint military drills with Russia, to run between 10 and 20 February, were announced only on January 17, and the first movement of Russian troops toward Belarus started shortly after. Russia is now positioning batteries of S-400 anti-aircraft missiles, which with a 400 km (250 miles) range, can threaten the airspace of Kyiv, Warsaw, and the Baltic states.