How should west respond to potential (likely) Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[Jimmy Higgins]

So you found one person who agrees with you. What makes that person any more worthy of discussion than anyone else?

Not one, the whole damn lecture hall, and these are not random MSM propaganda recipients like yourself

The problem with what you just said is that the US and western allies do not fear democracy. Why does Putin fear democracy? Why do Chinese communists fear democracy? Why does Putin fear a democratic Ukraine? Why does Putin need non-democratic states as buffer states to Russia?

Actually, you have half of your Congress fearing democracy
And Putin does not fear democratic Ukraine. He fears puppet fascist regime you installed there.

Funny, we used the same justification to help overthrow (kill) the socialist Chilean President in 1974.

Again, you try so hard to make your arguments, that sound exactly like Western arguments sound legit and noble, while declaring the exact same arguments from the West as propaganda and lies.

Ukraine is its own country. If you want a more Belarussian like leader in Ukraine, Putin knows the protocol... and it doesn't require brute military intervention. I think Russia pulls this stuff to remind the West that Russia still exists and "matters".

I am not following you here.

Yeah, that is the problem. Russia and the US are playing the same game, but you are making excuses for Russia.

 

[barbos]

So you found one person who agrees with you. What makes that person any more worthy of discussion than anyone else?

Not one, the whole damn lecture hall, and these are not random MSM propaganda recipients like yourself

The problem with what you just said is that the US and western allies do not fear democracy. Why does Putin fear democracy? Why do Chinese communists fear democracy? Why does Putin fear a democratic Ukraine? Why does Putin need non-democratic states as buffer states to Russia?

Actually, you have half of your Congress fearing democracy
And Putin does not fear democratic Ukraine. He fears puppet fascist regime you installed there.

Funny, we used the same justification to help overthrow (kill) the socialist Chilean President in 1974.

Again, you try so hard to make your arguments, that sound exactly like Western arguments sound legit and noble, while declaring the exact same arguments from the West as propaganda and lies.

Ukraine is its own country. If you want a more Belarussian like leader in Ukraine, Putin knows the protocol... and it doesn't require brute military intervention. I think Russia pulls this stuff to remind the West that Russia still exists and "matters".

I am not following you here.

Yeah, that is the problem. Russia and the US are playing the same game, but you are making excuses for Russia.

What excuses I am making? I am merely informing you of what actually happened.

 

[ZiprHead]

If you mean the US, that's still unproven.

It's million times better proven than Russian meddling in your elections.

Keep telling yourself that. Delusions need constant reinforcement.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Yeah, that is the problem. Russia and the US are playing the same game, but you are making excuses for Russia.

And the US is a functioning democracy. Russia is not.

The problem is that while the US was developing as a democratic state incorporating enlightenment thought and discussing things like a Bill of Rights, Russia was withering under Tsarist terror. And Russia still is. The Putinistas have their freedom just like the Tsars but dare not lift their thumbs for fear of their own lives and wealth. They know what happened to the Tsars and know what will happen to themselves.

 

[Harry Bosch]

These meanies putting out anti-Russian propaganda need to be muzzled. How dare someone accuse Russia of being imperialistic and threatening!

Well, you muzzle russian "propaganda" too.

One of the differences between you and I is that I have no problem criticizing my government. We screw up all the fucking time! I don't need to come up ridiculous examples to excuse the actions of my government.

 

[lpetrich]

The History of Poland: Every Year - YouTube Why Poland? You'll see.

In its first few centuries, Poland was roughly in its present boundaries. Then in 1385, Poland and Lithuania conquered what is now Belarus and W Ukraine. Then in 1404, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth conquered most of Ukraine and a bit of Russia just east of Belarus. In 1500, the PLC lost a bit of Ukraine near Kiev, and in 1522, that Russian strip east of Belarus. In 1529, it lost southern Ukraine near Odessa, and in 1634, it got back that Russian strip. In the 1650's, it lost most of its territory, but by 1665, it got most of its old territory back, most of Belarus and W Ukraine.

Poland was partitioned in 1772, 1793 and 1795, disappearing off of the map in the third partition.

The nation became independent again in 1918, after WWI, extending into W Belarus and the W end of Ukraine. It disappeared off of the map by being conquered by Germany in WWII, but became independent again afterward, in 1945, in its present boundaries.

So western Ukraine was ruled by Poland for over 3 1/2 centuries.

 

[barbos]

These meanies putting out anti-Russian propaganda need to be muzzled. How dare someone accuse Russia of being imperialistic and threatening!

Well, you muzzle russian "propaganda" too.

One of the differences between you and I is that I have no problem criticizing my government. We screw up all the fucking time! I don't need to come up ridiculous examples to excuse the actions of my government.

All the more remarkable that nobody in MSM is criticizing your government for their handling Russia problem.

 

[barbos]

If you mean the US, that's still unproven.

It's million times better proven than Russian meddling in your elections.

Keep telling yourself that. Delusions need constant reinforcement.

Delusions are all yours.

 

[Harry Bosch]

These meanies putting out anti-Russian propaganda need to be muzzled. How dare someone accuse Russia of being imperialistic and threatening!

Well, you muzzle russian "propaganda" too.

One of the differences between you and I is that I have no problem criticizing my government. We screw up all the fucking time! I don't need to come up ridiculous examples to excuse the actions of my government.

All the more remarkable that nobody in MSM is criticizing your government for their handling Russia problem.

Negative Kimosabe. I could link a dozen stories just today criticizing how Biden is handling this in just today's news. The NY times today questioned Biden's strategy. The republicans are all over it. Several republicans want the US to pull our troops out of Ukraine (not super informed).

 

[Elixir]

One of the differences between you and I is that I have no problem criticizing my government.

Well Harry, you are lucky to live in a place where criticizing the government doesn't end you up in a Siberian gulag.
I try not to saddle barbos with too many accusations of being light on his government or goad him into saying something that could endanger him. I'm sure he is aware of the potential consequences of voicing any opinion that might be ... uh ... unpopular with those who enforce Putin's grip on power.

 

[barbos]

Negative Kimosabe. I could link a dozen stories just today criticizing how Biden is handling this in just today's news.

That's not criticizing. What I am doing here is.

 

[ZiprHead]

Negative Kimosabe. I could link a dozen stories just today criticizing how Biden is handling this in just today's news.

That's not criticizing. What I am doing here is.

It's hard to have an argument with you when you make up your own definitions for words.

 

[Harry Bosch]

One of the differences between you and I is that I have no problem criticizing my government.

Well Harry, you are lucky to live in a place where criticizing the government doesn't end you up in a Siberian gulag.
I try not to saddle barbos with too many accusations of being light on his government or goad him into saying something that could endanger him. I'm sure he is aware of the potential consequences of voicing any opinion that might be ... uh ... unpopular with those who enforce Putin's grip on power.

I think that your post may be a little tongue and cheek?! I don't know. I think that Barbos lives in the US. But could be wrong. In all seriousness, I appreciate the fact that Barbos continues fighting and responds to every post. I kinda think that similar to Putin, he's in war mode: extremely sensitive to tiniest slight of Russia and very defensive. I hope that after the situation calms down a little (with either Russia backing down, or Russia killing some Ukrainian citizens and taking a small chunk of Ukraine; or Putin conquering all of Ukraine and killing many civilians: that Barbos and even Putin would be more open to criticism and open to finding solutions that we can all live on this planet in peace and without the fear of a neighbor threatening to invade.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

It's Putin's Lost Fucking Cause. And of course I don't believe that for a second. But I think he needs to go full Napoleon and crown himself Putin the Great, Tsar of Mother Russia. Come to me all my children!

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Excellent Article on Putin. It lays out in detail why he fears democratic reforms and how Ukraine is involved. It's all about what makes the Putinator tick.

What Putin really Wants

Putin is preparing to invade Ukraine again—or pretending he will invade Ukraine again—for the same reason. He wants to destabilize Ukraine, frighten Ukraine. He wants Ukrainian democracy to fail. He wants the Ukrainian economy to collapse. He wants foreign investors to flee. He wants his neighbors—in Belarus, Kazakhstan, even Poland and Hungary—to doubt whether democracy will ever be viable, in the longer term, in their countries too. Farther abroad, he wants to put so much strain on Western and democratic institutions, especially the European Union and NATO, that they break up. He wants to keep dictators in power wherever he can, in Syria, Venezuela, and Iran. He wants to undermine America, to shrink American influence, to remove the power of the democracy rhetoric that so many people in his part of the world still associate with America. He wants America itself to fail.

These are big goals, and they might not be achievable. But Putin’s beloved Soviet Union also had big, unachievable goals. Lenin, Stalin, and their successors wanted to create an international revolution, to subjugate the entire world to the Soviet dictatorship of the proletariat. Ultimately, they failed—but they did a lot of damage while trying. Putin will also fail, but he too can do a lot of damage while trying. And not only in Ukraine.

 

[Copernicus]

The History of Poland: Every Year - YouTube Why Poland? You'll see.

In its first few centuries, Poland was roughly in its present boundaries. Then in 1385, Poland and Lithuania conquered what is now Belarus and W Ukraine. Then in 1404, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth conquered most of Ukraine and a bit of Russia just east of Belarus. In 1500, the PLC lost a bit of Ukraine near Kiev, and in 1522, that Russian strip east of Belarus. In 1529, it lost southern Ukraine near Odessa, and in 1634, it got back that Russian strip. In the 1650's, it lost most of its territory, but by 1665, it got most of its old territory back, most of Belarus and W Ukraine.

Poland was partitioned in 1772, 1793 and 1795, disappearing off of the map in the third partition.

The nation became independent again in 1918, after WWI, extending into W Belarus and the W end of Ukraine. It disappeared off of the map by being conquered by Germany in WWII, but became independent again afterward, in 1945, in its present boundaries.

So western Ukraine was ruled by Poland for over 3 1/2 centuries.

That is a somewhat distorted picture of the history of Poland, especially the claim that Poland and Lithuania conquered Belarus and W Ukraine. That never happened. What really happened was that the Grand Duchy of Lithuania included Belarus and parts of Ukraine. The Suzdal-Vladimir-Moscow area was still under Mongol rule when the Grand Duchy was expanding. Russia did not exist as such, and the main adversary for the Duchy in the South was the Khazar empire. Poland was Catholic, but the Grand Duchy was mainly pagan. It was also a mixture, including a large number of East Slavic and Baltic pagans, Jews, and Orthodox believers. The court language in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (Litva) was Byelorussian, and the center of power was situated in cities like Novgorod and Vilnius. Poland was more oriented towards Baltic, Scandinavian, and German rival states.

What happened with Polish "expansion" to the east was that the Grand Duke of Lithuania,  Władysław II Jagiełło, married Queen Jadwiga (aka Hedwig) of Poland in 1385. He was a pagan but converted to Catholicism for that marriage. They ruled Poland jointly. Upon her death in 1399, he became the King of Poland. This was the basis of a peaceful union between the Polish state and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, which came to serve under a single rule of law--a massive constitutional monarchy that was larger than any other European state at the time. The Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth was not Poland, but Poles became the major center of power in that state. Towards the end of the Commonwealth, the branch of the Wasa dynasty that ruled Poland got into major wars with the other branch of the Wasa dynasty ruling Sweden. So there were a lot of claims by the Wasas to principalities and countries in the area, including the Grand Duchy of Moscow. At one point, Poland even occupied Moscow (after being invited in by some rebellious boyars) and tried to install a Wasa as the Tsar. They were booted out.

 

[lpetrich]

U.S. Says Russia Planned to Fabricate Pretext for Invasion - The New York Times

The United States has acquired intelligence about a Russian plan to fabricate a pretext for an invasion of Ukraine using a faked video that would build on recent disinformation campaigns, according to senior administration officials and others briefed on the material.

The plan — which the United States hopes to spoil by making public — involves staging and filming a fabricated attack by the Ukrainian military either on Russian territory or against Russian-speaking people in eastern Ukraine.

Russia, the officials said, intended to use the video to accuse Ukraine of genocide against Russian-speaking people. It would then use the outrage over the video to justify an attack or have separatist leaders in the Donbas region of eastern Ukraine invite a Russian intervention.

Officials would not release any direct evidence of the Russian plan or how they learned of it, saying to do so would compromise their sources and methods. But both a recent Russian disinformation campaign focused on false accusations of genocide and the recent political actions being taken in the Russian parliament to recognize breakaway governments in Ukraine lent credence to the intelligence.

This is sort of like the  Gleiwitz incident which was fabricated by the Nazis to give themselves a pretext for invading Poland, by claiming that it was Poland that invaded Germany. They made it seem like some Poles took over a border outpost in Gleiwitz, now Gliwice, and then broadcast some anti-German rhetoric.

 

[barbos]

US/West does a lot of projecting.
They ask themselves "what we would have done?" then answer and say Russia is gonna do that. False Flag and staged videos are not russian M.O. It's US's

 

[zorq]

US/West does a lot of projecting.
They ask themselves "what we would have done?" then answer and say Russia is gonna do that. False Flag and staged videos are not russian M.O. It's US's

Dude, all of your conspiracy theories about the West that you keep posting in this thread are Russian projection. Just because the people of country x throw out a paid Russian puppet doesn't mean that they were replaced by a western puppet. The west doesn't have to pay people in places neighboring Russia prefer the west over Russia. Russia has proven by their misdeeds that they can't be trusted and have active imperial ambitions.

 

[barbos]

US/West does a lot of projecting.
They ask themselves "what we would have done?" then answer and say Russia is gonna do that. False Flag and staged videos are not russian M.O. It's US's

Dude, all of your conspiracy theories about the West that you keep posting in this thread are Russian projection. Just because the people of country x throw out a paid Russian puppet doesn't mean that they were replaced by a western puppet. The west doesn't have to pay people in places neighboring Russia prefer the west over Russia. Russia has proven by their misdeeds that they can't be trusted and have active imperial ambitions.

These are not conspiracy theories, these are documented and accepted (by scholars and true journalists) facts. Soviet Union did not need to bother with false flags. US had to worry about convincing public to go to war, hence Tonkin Incident, hence WMD in Iraq, hence hilariously fake videos of chemical attacks in Syria.
And Ukraine too, don't know if US was involved, probably not, but they are well aware who was behind sniper attack which led to Yanukovich hasty retreat to Russia.