How should west respond to Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[barbos]

 

[barbos]

Speaking of Borat, GB is cancelling their program of housing ukrainian refugees.
Many ukranians say "good ridddance!" Apparenlty this program attracted certan types of brits with "great garden" attitude. They were treating ukraininas as a third world country idiots.
To be fair, some ukrainian refugees annoy their "hosts" too. Poles are pissed off at rich refugees which drive porshes back and forth to Ukraine. Germans complained to that too I remember.

 

[ZiprHead]

Speaking of Borat, GB is cancelling their program of housing ukrainian refugees.
Many ukranians say "good ridddance!" Apparenlty this program attracted certan types of brits with "great garden" attitude. They were treating ukraininas as a third world country idiots.
To be fair, some ukrainian refugees annoy their "hosts" too. Poles are pissed off at rich refugees which drive porshes back and forth to Ukraine. Germans complained to that too I remember.

They're still angels compared to fucking Russians.

 

[barbos]

Speaking of Borat, GB is cancelling their program of housing ukrainian refugees.
Many ukranians say "good ridddance!" Apparenlty this program attracted certan types of brits with "great garden" attitude. They were treating ukraininas as a third world country idiots.
To be fair, some ukrainian refugees annoy their "hosts" too. Poles are pissed off at rich refugees which drive porshes back and forth to Ukraine. Germans complained to that too I remember.

They're still angels compared to fucking Russians.

Says who?

 

[SLD]

The problem is the casualties would be horrific for Russia regardless.

There could be casualties for many, not just for Ukraine and Russia. Who knows?

Yep. The greatest threat to the world today is Russia. It's not Iran, Houtiland, or even China/Taiwan. It's Russia. Therefore, the entire world should be doing something to encourage Russia to return to negotiation table. Ukraine has stated over and over and over that they are open to cease fire and peace talks. Russia is not.

Well the problem is what could the rest of the world do to “encourage” Putin to end the war? The only way I see is to completely stop buying Russian oil and gas, and to supply Ukraine with significantly more equipment and supplies to fight them. Right now, Europe is giving more money to Russia than it is giving aid to Ukraine. India is totally reliant on Russian oil to keep its energy bills down. Sanctions aren’t working and are largely cosmetic. Sanctions almost never work.

In truth nothing will work short of revolution. The only thing that will change his mind will be when some enterprising army officer puts a bullet through his skull. Putin has staked his future and life on a total victory. He can’t back down. He can’t negotiate. In 4 1/2 years of war he hasn’t even hinted at a negotiated compromise. To do so could be fatal for him.

No. The only option is to give Ukraine everything it needs. Give them a huge amount of military aid. Perhaps even send a few soldiers over there. Definitely allow them to train and raise forces in places like Poland. Maybe even make them part of NATO - at least their western portion just for fucks sake. What’s Putin going to do? Go to war?

Biden’s aid was too piecemeal. The west totally underestimated Ukraine. They were afraid to give Ukraine aid because they thought it would be useless. Later we didn’t give them nearly enough to press home their offensive. We have far more Bradley’s we could have given them and should have. They’ve proven highly effective. We should have realized almost from the get go how much this war was eating through high level supplies of important things like Patriot missiles and increased our production immediately. Now it will something like 2029 before our production has been ramped up to supply them what they need.

WRT Taiwan, that may have been the silver lining in this war. Xi has watched it carefully and our response. He’s likely not going to invade now because he’s seen the heavy cost that Russia has paid and to a lesser extent the U.S. has paid for attacking Iran. These two lessons may actually protect Taiwan far more than more military aid to them will. Although we do need to ensure that they have enough to defend themselves. But of course with this stupid America First president and policy, we could be emboldening an attack. That’s why it is so essential to supply and support Ukraine. A loss in Ukraine means a likely war in Taiwan, and that will have huge economic impact on the United States as well.

 

[Elixir]

The greatest threat to the world today is Russia.

Disagree. Strongly.
The greatest extant threat to “the world” (modern civilization) is Donald Trump’s America. By far.
Russia is led by a cold, canny autocrat who is well aware of threats to his power and what it takes to perpetuate his power. Donald Trump’s America is run by a psychotic, underdeveloped sociopathic malevolent and sadistic toddler, who has no internal constraint against killing prople and destroying things regardless of the impact upon others or himself.
Give me the clever, malignant tyrant over the mindless raging overgrown toddler that is armed to the teeth.

 

[ZiprHead]

Speaking of Borat, GB is cancelling their program of housing ukrainian refugees.
Many ukranians say "good ridddance!" Apparenlty this program attracted certan types of brits with "great garden" attitude. They were treating ukraininas as a third world country idiots.
To be fair, some ukrainian refugees annoy their "hosts" too. Poles are pissed off at rich refugees which drive porshes back and forth to Ukraine. Germans complained to that too I remember.

They're still angels compared to fucking Russians.

Says who?

Says me. Can't you read?

 

[aupmanyav]

The only way I see is to completely stop buying Russian oil and gas, and to supply Ukraine with significantly more equipment and supplies to fight them.

Both the things are not possible for India. Russia is one big supplier of military equipment to us. We have China and Pakistan as our neighbors and 1,480 million people to care about.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I guess we can say with certainty that the US not getting involved was not the wrong decision. Russia, unable to actually defeat Ukraine, is not on the verge of invading the rest of Europe.

I never bought the line that 600 million Europeans needed 325 million Americans to defend them from 150 million Russians.

 

[bilby]

Maybe even make them part of NATO

Too late - The North Atlantic Treaty specifically excludes new members if they are already at war.

Kinda like how you can't take out an insurance policy when your house is already on fire.

 

[bilby]

I guess we can say with certainty that the US not getting involved was not the wrong decision.

I guess you have some kind of multiple personality disorder, or are under the delusion that you are a king, as you always seem to refer to yourself alone as "we".

I certainly can't say without considerable and deep uncertainty that the US not getting involved was not the wrong decision.

It was not the wrong moral decision not to make, and it was probably not the wrong policy decision not to make in order to not fail to defend the international interests of the US, either.

It also doesn't seem not to be strange that you didn't resile from employing an unnecessary double negative. Certainly it doesn't make your post not needlessly difficult to parse.

 

[SLD]

Maybe even make them part of NATO

Too late - The North Atlantic Treaty specifically excludes new members if they are already at war.

Kinda like how you can't take out an insurance policy when your house is already on fire.

We’re carving out the exception for western Ukraine. They can continue to fight in the east and we won’t interfere. But they have to stop attacking Kiev.

 

[bilby]

Maybe even make them part of NATO

Too late - The North Atlantic Treaty specifically excludes new members if they are already at war.

Kinda like how you can't take out an insurance policy when your house is already on fire.

We’re carving out the exception for western Ukraine. They can continue to fight in the east and we won’t interfere. But they have to stop attacking Kiev.

That would require splitting Ukraine into two independent nation states, and would almost certainly mean conceding East Ukraine to Russia in short order.

I can think of a large number of reasons why this would be a terrible idea.

 

[SLD]

Maybe even make them part of NATO

Too late - The North Atlantic Treaty specifically excludes new members if they are already at war.

Kinda like how you can't take out an insurance policy when your house is already on fire.

We’re carving out the exception for western Ukraine. They can continue to fight in the east and we won’t interfere. But they have to stop attacking Kiev.

That would require splitting Ukraine into two independent nation states, and would almost certainly mean conceding East Ukraine to Russia in short order.

I can think of a large number of reasons why this would be a terrible idea.

We would continue to support Ukraine’s war in the east, just not make it a casus belli for the rest of NATO. it would make for shorter and safer supply conduits to their front.

Of course it won’t happen. I’m just spitballing through the scenario. And I think it would be funny to watch Putin blow a gasket.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I guess we can say with certainty that the US not getting involved was not the wrong decision.

I guess you have some kind of multiple personality disorder, or are under the delusion that you are a king, as you always seem to refer to yourself alone as "we".

I certainly can't say without considerable and deep uncertainty that the US not getting involved was not the wrong decision.

It was not the wrong moral decision not to make, and it was probably not the wrong policy decision not to make in order to not fail to defend the international interests of the US, either.

It also doesn't seem not to be strange that you didn't resile from employing an unnecessary double negative. Certainly it doesn't make your post not needlessly difficult to parse.

I guess you're one of those who thinks that as soon as Russia is finished with Ukraine the next step will be the rest of Europe. Russia's performance in Ukraine says that is unlikely.

Tell me, how quickly do you think that Russia will get through Germany and France should Ukraine fall?

 

[bilby]

I guess you're one of those who thinks that as soon as Russia is finished with Ukraine the next step will be the rest of Europe

Why would you make such a guess? Nothing in my post suggests it.

Indeed, you appear to be changing the subject, which was whether the US made a good decision when assessing her level of involvement.

Surely you don't envisage Russia advancing so far west as to threaten the USA directly. But a direct threat of invasion is far from the only thing that it is in the US national interest to block.

The US has spent a lot of money on NATO, and all she has to show for it is domination of the first world, and of a large part of the third. If the EU don't feel that the US is serious about providing security, they will no longer have any incentive to refrain from challenging that domination.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Meanwhile and possibly relevant to discussions here, Poland is offering to pay $15,000 a year for every US soldier stationed on its territory and cover infrastructure costs. Poles seem to be largely okay with bearing the cost.
Poland contributes significantly to their defense as Trump has so loudly demanded of all NATO members and purchases significant amounts of arms from US defense contractors. So Poland is challenging Trump to back up his past comments on coming to the defense of NATO members who increase their defense spending. Poland contributes 4.8% of GDP.

Personally I see Trump dragging his feet on this. He's full of shit. Always has been. Always will be.

 

[barbos]

Speaking of Borat, GB is cancelling their program of housing ukrainian refugees.
Many ukranians say "good ridddance!" Apparenlty this program attracted certan types of brits with "great garden" attitude. They were treating ukraininas as a third world country idiots.
To be fair, some ukrainian refugees annoy their "hosts" too. Poles are pissed off at rich refugees which drive porshes back and forth to Ukraine. Germans complained to that too I remember.

They're still angels compared to fucking Russians.

Says who?

Says me.

So nobody.

 

[ZiprHead]

Speaking of Borat, GB is cancelling their program of housing ukrainian refugees.
Many ukranians say "good ridddance!" Apparenlty this program attracted certan types of brits with "great garden" attitude. They were treating ukraininas as a third world country idiots.
To be fair, some ukrainian refugees annoy their "hosts" too. Poles are pissed off at rich refugees which drive porshes back and forth to Ukraine. Germans complained to that too I remember.

They're still angels compared to fucking Russians.

Says who?

Says me.

So nobody.

I have a body. It's a little chubby and soft but still...

 

[Elixir]

I have a body. It's a little chubby and soft but still...

Sorry pal, you’ve been dehumanized, Ruski style. Now gtfooh.