How should west respond to Russian invasion of Ukraine?

[Tigers!]

You've never explained why fighting against Russian imperialism will destroy Russia. Canada hasn't invaded any countries in a 100 years; they haven't been destroyed. Why are Russians such doomsayers?

There is no russian impearialism.

I agree there is no Russian impearialism.
But there is Russian imperialism

 

[Tigers!]

If it is a secret how did Mercouris find out?

 

[Copernicus]

Something I posted on another forum:

In 1939, Britain and France went to war to protect Poland from the German and Soviet Union invasion that abrogated the Polish sovereignty the British and French had underwritten.

At that time, the Soviets and Germans were allied with each other against Poland, under the terms of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

Neither Britain nor France saw Germany or the USSR as existential threats to themselves. They acted in accordance with their duty as underwriters of Polish independence.

By the end of 1941, the situation was radically different, with France defeated and Britain under clear existential threat. Britain needed any help she could get. The Japanese attack on the USA, and then the German betrayal of the USSR, led to both the US and the Soviet Union becoming allies of the British, in a war whose aim had radically shifted from the restoration of Poland, to the destruction of the Third Reich, Imperial Japan, and Fascist Italy, and the liberation of the vast territories they had by then invaded.

Poland and the rest of Eastern Europe was shamefully abandoned to the USSR, from whose yoke she was not freed until the 1990s.

That the US and Britain did not persue Polish independence in 1945 is understandable; War against the USSR in 1945 was undesirable on a huge number of levels, and the war aim of 1939 a distant memory, hidden behind the vast destruction that had been wreaked across the whole of Europe.

But to once again abandon those countries that were abandoned to Russia from 1945 to 1990, including not only Poland and other Warsaw Pact nations, but also the former Soviet Republics of Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, and Ukraine, would be a further betrayal of a Western European and British historical duty to protect their independence - a protection that is today in the strategic interest of both the EU and the UK, both economically, as free trade is beneficial to all parties; And militarily, as a buffer zone between Putin's armies and German, French (and ultimately even British) territory.

The twin threats to Europe that existed in 1939, the Third Reich and the USSR, have both now been eliminated. But neither Russian expansionism nor Western European fascism are completely vanquished.

Defending Ukraine and the rest of Eastern Europe against Russian irredentism, and the whole of Europe against resurgent ultra-nationalism, are an ongoing (and likely eternal) duty for all who value freedom and prosperity over dictatorship and squalor.

We have both a moral imperative, and a strategic interest, in giving Ukraine all the assistance we can, not only to defeat and repel the current Russian invasion, but also to become a liberal democracy with strong protections against corruption, so she can become a prosperous trading partner for the rest of the free world.

The world needs to see, once again, that invasion and subjugation of neighbouring countries is intolerable, and demands resolute, timely, and unstinting action to ensure that the invader does not profit from his agression.

This is not somebody else's problem. It's our problem. And until we address it, the cost of addressing it will just keep rising.

In 1936, the French and British could have easily occupied the Rhineland to prevent the militarisation of that region. In 1938, they could have made a stand against the occupation of the Sudetenland, instead of signing the craven Munich Agreement. But they didn't act until it was too late, and the cost of defeating the expansionist dictator in Berlin became astronomical.

Let us not allow the cost of defeating the expansionist dictator in Moscow to become similarly inflated.

Nicely put. I just spent a couple of weeks in Poland on vacation and to participate in a university conference. Before leaving two days ago, my wife and I spent the day in the huge Museum of the Second World War (aka Westerplatte Museum). Hitler started the World War by attacking the free city of Gdansk in the Westerplatte peninsula where the museum is located. What was particularly striking to me was the way that the two major totalitarian empires--the Nazi empire and Russo-Soviet empire split up the territory of Poland in their efforts to undo the Treaty of Versaille, which had left Gdansk as an independent city outside of Poland but partially integrated with it administratively. Hitler wanted that territory back, and he wanted the former German-occupied territories of Poland back. The Russian-dominated Soviet government wanted revenge for having lost its former territories of occupied Poland. That was the secret pretext for that Molotov-Ribbentrop handshake between Nazis and Soviets--returning those territories to their former condition as territories of the pre-WWI status quo. Of course, Hitler planned to invade Soviet territory all along, and Stalin knew it. But Stalin felt Germany would be weakened by its conflict with the West, and he didn't realize how quickly Hitler would tear up his secret agreement not to attack the Russian-controlled areas of Poland. The West tended to turn a blind eye to the fact that the Soviets were just as guilty as the Nazis for the attack on Poland. The museum thoroughly documents the collapse of Poland, including some of the atrocities committed by the Polish government and people in pursuit of their own attempt to capitalize on Hitler's occupation of Czechoslovakia. (Poland seized a small area of Czech territory--Zaolzie--and Polish citizens persecuted ethnic Germans in that area.) Nobody and no side was without blame and guilt for all of the human suffering caused in WW2.

Right now, I think that Poles expect Russia to continue its program of asymmetric warfare against Poland. If Russia were to fully subjugate Ukraine again, its next move would be to go back to reassumption of control over the Baltic states and Poland, which now has substantial immigrant populations of Ukrainians and Belarussians. I was able to communicate easily in Russian while in Poland, since my Polish was substantially less fluent. However, the fact is that Poland represents a challenge for Russian control of Eastern Europe. Its economy has grown substantially, especially its industrial and agricultural sectors. For Ukrainians and Belarussians, it remains a source of freedom and supply that is completely independent of Russia. Hence, Russian irredentists will almost certainly target that country next. This is a continuation of the Russian imperial expansion that existed in pre-WWI Europe and was a primary cause of WW2--essentially a resumption of WWI after the Treaty of Versaille had temporarily created buffer states separating the German and Russian areas of dominance and occupation.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Something I posted on another forum:

In 1939, Britain and France went to war to protect Poland from the German and Soviet Union invasion that abrogated the Polish sovereignty the British and French had underwritten.

At that time, the Soviets and Germans were allied with each other against Poland, under the terms of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

Neither Britain nor France saw Germany or the USSR as existential threats to themselves. They acted in accordance with their duty as underwriters of Polish independence.

By the end of 1941, the situation was radically different, with France defeated and Britain under clear existential threat. Britain needed any help she could get. The Japanese attack on the USA, and then the German betrayal of the USSR, led to both the US and the Soviet Union becoming allies of the British, in a war whose aim had radically shifted from the restoration of Poland, to the destruction of the Third Reich, Imperial Japan, and Fascist Italy, and the liberation of the vast territories they had by then invaded.

Poland and the rest of Eastern Europe was shamefully abandoned to the USSR, from whose yoke she was not freed until the 1990s.

That the US and Britain did not persue Polish independence in 1945 is understandable; War against the USSR in 1945 was undesirable on a huge number of levels, and the war aim of 1939 a distant memory, hidden behind the vast destruction that had been wreaked across the whole of Europe.

But to once again abandon those countries that were abandoned to Russia from 1945 to 1990, including not only Poland and other Warsaw Pact nations, but also the former Soviet Republics of Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, and Ukraine, would be a further betrayal of a Western European and British historical duty to protect their independence - a protection that is today in the strategic interest of both the EU and the UK, both economically, as free trade is beneficial to all parties; And militarily, as a buffer zone between Putin's armies and German, French (and ultimately even British) territory.

The twin threats to Europe that existed in 1939, the Third Reich and the USSR, have both now been eliminated. But neither Russian expansionism nor Western European fascism are completely vanquished.

Defending Ukraine and the rest of Eastern Europe against Russian irredentism, and the whole of Europe against resurgent ultra-nationalism, are an ongoing (and likely eternal) duty for all who value freedom and prosperity over dictatorship and squalor.

We have both a moral imperative, and a strategic interest, in giving Ukraine all the assistance we can, not only to defeat and repel the current Russian invasion, but also to become a liberal democracy with strong protections against corruption, so she can become a prosperous trading partner for the rest of the free world.

The world needs to see, once again, that invasion and subjugation of neighbouring countries is intolerable, and demands resolute, timely, and unstinting action to ensure that the invader does not profit from his agression.

This is not somebody else's problem. It's our problem. And until we address it, the cost of addressing it will just keep rising.

In 1936, the French and British could have easily occupied the Rhineland to prevent the militarisation of that region. In 1938, they could have made a stand against the occupation of the Sudetenland, instead of signing the craven Munich Agreement. But they didn't act until it was too late, and the cost of defeating the expansionist dictator in Berlin became astronomical.

Let us not allow the cost of defeating the expansionist dictator in Moscow to become similarly inflated.

The expansionist dictator in Moscow is stalled in Ukraine and unable to advance. His much larger and better equipped army failed to conquer the smaller and less well equipped neighbor.

I refuse to believe that 600 million Europeans can't handle 150 million Russians unless 325 million Americans rush to their aid, especially since Russia can't even handle Ukraine.

Making a comparison to stopping the Nazis has been made for many of the conflicts after WWII. After the fact it has been shown that the third world country the US just threw against the wall wasn't about to conquer the world. But this time is different, I'm sure.

 

[TV and credit cards]

The expansionist dictator in Moscow is stalled in Ukraine and unable to advance. His much larger and better equipped army failed to conquer the smaller and less well equipped neighbor.

I refuse to believe that 600 million Europeans can't handle 150 million Russians unless 325 million Americans rush to their aid, especially since Russia can't even handle Ukraine.

Making a comparison to stopping the Nazis has been made for many of the conflicts after WWII. After the fact it has been shown that the third world country the US just threw against the wall wasn't about to conquer the world. But this time is different, I'm sure.

Your first statement shows your second statement could very well be false.

 

[ZiprHead]

You've never explained why fighting against Russian imperialism will destroy Russia. Canada hasn't invaded any countries in a 100 years; they haven't been destroyed. Why are Russians such doomsayers?

There is no russian impearialism.

I agree there is no Russian impearialism.
But there is Russian imperialism

Mmmm. Pears.

 

[Elixir]

You've never explained why fighting against Russian imperialism will destroy Russia. Canada hasn't invaded any countries in a 100 years; they haven't been destroyed. Why are Russians such doomsayers?

There is no russian impearialism.

I agree there is no Russian impearialism.
But there is Russian imperialism

Mmmm. Pears.

And vanilla ice cream.
Russia have best vanilla ice cream.

 

[ZiprHead]

And vanilla ice cream.
Russia have best vanilla ice cream.

I've heard vanilla is the only flavor Russians are allowed to have.

 

[ZiprHead]

Russian daily casualties highest since war began

The Ukrainian General Staff recorded 2,090 Russian casualties, killed and wounded, in the twenty-four hours to 28 September, the highest daily total it has reported since the full-scale invasion began in February 2022.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

 

[Tigers!]

Russian daily casualties highest since war began

The Ukrainian General Staff recorded 2,090 Russian casualties, killed and wounded, in the twenty-four hours to 28 September, the highest daily total it has reported since the full-scale invasion began in February 2022.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

Such a senseless waste of life.

 

[barbos]

If it is a secret how did Mercouris find out?

What is a secret?

 

[barbos]

Russian daily casualties highest since war began

The Ukrainian General Staff recorded 2,090 Russian casualties, killed and wounded, in the twenty-four hours to 28 September, the highest daily total it has reported since the full-scale invasion began in February 2022.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

You do understand that this is other way around? Nazi scum in Kiev have had a habbit of reporting their own casualties as russians from the day 1 of the western agression.

 

[barbos]

Something I posted on another forum:

In 1939, Britain and France went to war to protect Poland from the German and Soviet Union invasion that abrogated the Polish sovereignty the British and French had underwritten.

At that time, the Soviets and Germans were allied with each other against Poland, under the terms of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

Neither Britain nor France saw Germany or the USSR as existential threats to themselves. They acted in accordance with their duty as underwriters of Polish independence.

By the end of 1941, the situation was radically different, with France defeated and Britain under clear existential threat. Britain needed any help she could get. The Japanese attack on the USA, and then the German betrayal of the USSR, led to both the US and the Soviet Union becoming allies of the British, in a war whose aim had radically shifted from the restoration of Poland, to the destruction of the Third Reich, Imperial Japan, and Fascist Italy, and the liberation of the vast territories they had by then invaded.

Poland and the rest of Eastern Europe was shamefully abandoned to the USSR, from whose yoke she was not freed until the 1990s.

That the US and Britain did not persue Polish independence in 1945 is understandable; War against the USSR in 1945 was undesirable on a huge number of levels, and the war aim of 1939 a distant memory, hidden behind the vast destruction that had been wreaked across the whole of Europe.

But to once again abandon those countries that were abandoned to Russia from 1945 to 1990, including not only Poland and other Warsaw Pact nations, but also the former Soviet Republics of Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, and Ukraine, would be a further betrayal of a Western European and British historical duty to protect their independence - a protection that is today in the strategic interest of both the EU and the UK, both economically, as free trade is beneficial to all parties; And militarily, as a buffer zone between Putin's armies and German, French (and ultimately even British) territory.

The twin threats to Europe that existed in 1939, the Third Reich and the USSR, have both now been eliminated. But neither Russian expansionism nor Western European fascism are completely vanquished.

Defending Ukraine and the rest of Eastern Europe against Russian irredentism, and the whole of Europe against resurgent ultra-nationalism, are an ongoing (and likely eternal) duty for all who value freedom and prosperity over dictatorship and squalor.

We have both a moral imperative, and a strategic interest, in giving Ukraine all the assistance we can, not only to defeat and repel the current Russian invasion, but also to become a liberal democracy with strong protections against corruption, so she can become a prosperous trading partner for the rest of the free world.

The world needs to see, once again, that invasion and subjugation of neighbouring countries is intolerable, and demands resolute, timely, and unstinting action to ensure that the invader does not profit from his agression.

This is not somebody else's problem. It's our problem. And until we address it, the cost of addressing it will just keep rising.

In 1936, the French and British could have easily occupied the Rhineland to prevent the militarisation of that region. In 1938, they could have made a stand against the occupation of the Sudetenland, instead of signing the craven Munich Agreement. But they didn't act until it was too late, and the cost of defeating the expansionist dictator in Berlin became astronomical.

Let us not allow the cost of defeating the expansionist dictator in Moscow to become similarly inflated.

WW2 started not in Poland. It started in Chechoslovakia, where both Germany and (!!!!) Poland invaded and split Chechoslovakia between themselves. With Poland taking mostly polish part of Chechoslovakia and Germany taking german Sudetes.
Soviet Union offered protection to Chechoslovakia but Poland and the rest of the West (England&France) refused to let Russian forces to pass. Molotov-Ribbentrope pact gave Russia what Russia lost as a result of Revolution, that is Western Ukraine part of Poland which it aquired in WW1. So you set the rules of the conduct with polish-german invasion of Checkoslovakia. Stalin simply played by these rules and took what he thouhgt was rightly his.
Poles should just shut the fuck up about Molotov-Ribentrope

 

[TV and credit cards]

Russian daily casualties highest since war began

The Ukrainian General Staff recorded 2,090 Russian casualties, killed and wounded, in the twenty-four hours to 28 September, the highest daily total it has reported since the full-scale invasion began in February 2022.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

You do understand that this is other way around? Nazi scum in Kiev have had a habbit of reporting their own casualties as russians from the day 1 of the western agression.

I knew there had to be some rational explanation.

 

[barbos]

Russian daily casualties highest since war began

The Ukrainian General Staff recorded 2,090 Russian casualties, killed and wounded, in the twenty-four hours to 28 September, the highest daily total it has reported since the full-scale invasion began in February 2022.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

You do understand that this is other way around? Nazi scum in Kiev have had a habbit of reporting their own casualties as russians from the day 1 of the western agression.

I knew there had to be some rational explanation.

Yes, Kiev regime are pathological liars.

 

[barbos]

Defending Ukraine and the rest of Eastern Europe against Russian irredentism,

For fuck's sake. Poland is militantly catholic imperialists which occupied orthodox Western Ukraine and treated them as slaves based on religious grounds. There is a reason why Western Ukrainians are historically so militant and it is living under polish rule. There was a reason why ukrainians killed bunch of poles in Western Ukraine. Poles were treating them like shit.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

There was a reason why ukrainians killed bunch of poles in Western Ukraine. Poles were treating them like shit.

Ukrainians? I thought they didn't exist and the Russian military was murdering Russians.

 

[Elixir]

Russian daily casualties highest since war began

The Ukrainian General Staff recorded 2,090 Russian casualties, killed and wounded, in the twenty-four hours to 28 September, the highest daily total it has reported since the full-scale invasion began in February 2022.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

Such a senseless waste of life.

They were just going to die anyway, probably in a gutter somewhere with a bottle of vodka.

 

[Copernicus]

WW2 started not in Poland. It started in Chechoslovakia, where both Germany and (!!!!) Poland invaded and split Chechoslovakia between themselves. With Poland taking mostly polish part of Chechoslovakia and Germany taking german Sudetes.
Soviet Union offered protection to Chechoslovakia but Poland and the rest of the West (England&France) refused to let Russian forces to pass. Molotov-Ribbentrope pact gave Russia what Russia lost as a result of Revolution, that is Western Ukraine part of Poland which it aquired in WW1. So you set the rules of the conduct with polish-german invasion of Checkoslovakia. Stalin simply played by these rules and took what he thouhgt was rightly his.
Poles should just shut the fuck up about Molotov-Ribentrope

Historical rubbish but no surprise, considering the source. Czechoslovakia was carved up because Western Europe signed it away to Adolf Hitler. Chamberlain waved a little paper around and made a big fuss about selling Czechoslovakia out. It was only after Hitler invaded the free city of Danzig (Gdansk) and German troops fired the first shots in Westerplatte that war was officially declared by Great Britain and France. Poland did seize some Czech territory, but nothing on the scale of what Hitler and Stalin did when they implemented the Molotov-Ribbentrop invasion of Poland. WW2 was really started jointly by Hitler and Stalin. The historical facts are clear on that point.

 

[ZiprHead]

Lest we forget .... this is russia ...

in 1920 soviet russia signed peace treaties with Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania

in 1932 the soviets signed the Soviet-Finnish non-aggression pact

in 1932 the soviets signed the Soviet-Polish non-aggression pact

in 1939, following a pact with the Nazis, the soviets invaded Poland and Finland

in 1940, the soviets invaded and annexed Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania

in 1941, the soviets signed the Soviet-Japanese Neutrality Pact, promising to "respect the territorial integrity and inviolability" of Japan

in 1945, the soviets signed the UN Charter, endorsing a ban on the threat or use of force against other nations

in August 1945, the soviets attacked Japan

in 1956, the soviets declared that socialist states' relations rest on "noninterference in one another's domestic affairs." A few days later ...

in 1956, soviet tanks crushed Hungary

in 1968, soviet-led Warsaw Pact forces invaded Czechoslovakia

in 1975, the soviets signed the Helsinki Final Act, committing themselves to the non-use of force, the inviolability of borders, territorial integrity and non-intervention.

in 1979, the soviets invaded Afghanistan

in 1991, russia joined the Alma-Ata Declaration recognising the territorial integrity of the former soviet republics and the inviolability of their existing borders.

in 1992 russian forces seized and occupied Transnistria in Moldova

in 1994, russia signed the Budapest Memorandum, explicitly promising to respect Ukraine's independence, sovereignty and existing borders and to refrain from the threat or use of force against it

in 1997, russia signed the Treaty of Friendship with Ukraine, recognising the inviolability of their existing borders

in 1999, russia committed at the OSCE Istanbul summit to withdraw its remaining forces from Moldova by the end of 2002. It did not

in 2003, russia signed a treaty formally establishing and recognising the russia-Ukraine state border

in 2008 russian forces invaded and occupied Georgian territory

in 2008, russia accepted the six-point Georgia ceasefire requiring russian forces to withdraw to the positions they held before hostilities. They did not

in 2008, Putin stated on German TV "Crimea is not a disputed territory"

in 2014 russia seized and annexed Crimea, Ukraine

in 2014, on the day he signed the treaty annexing Crimea, Putin stated Russia had no interest in any other region of Ukraine. Shortly after ...

in 2014 russia invaded eastern Ukraine and seized parts of Donbas

in 2015, Putin signed a declaration supporting the Minsk agreements, reaffirming Russian "full respect" for the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine

in 2022 russia launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine

in 2022 russia passed constitutional laws annexing the Ukrainian regions of Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia, including over 20,000 square kilometres its forces do not control

This is the country Trump wants Zelenskyy to "make a deal" with?