How to Create a Gun-Free America in 5 Easy Steps

[DBT]

Education; changing attitudes to the use of violence as a viable means [perceived] of resolving problems. The shoot 'em up hero mentality should be eradicated, for a start.

 

[ImGod]

Our city was getting tired of gang violence and tried to stop it with extra layers of gun control. Well past whatever congress with pat themselves on the back for attempting to pass. To buy a handgun privately you need a purchase permit from the county Sheriff. $5 and a background check. To buy from a dealer, they run the background check at the point of sale.

Then to possess the gun in the city limits you must take your privately transacted gun and bill of sale or dealer bill of sale down to the police headquarters. They run another background check on you and a check on the gun's serial numbers to see if it was stolen. If you come out clean, they give you a permit for the handgun and you walk out with it or go back and get it from the dealer. If not, they confiscate the handgun for a private sale or the dealer doesn't give you your gun and you have to try to get a refund from them. So buying in the city legally takes about a normal working day's worth of time.

It's sort of like Chicago's FOID system but less restrictive and just as not-effective. Since implementing it, homicides and shootings haven't really changed much for the demographic targeted. They've gone up or down for the same reasons gun violence has fluctuated for decades. Drugs and gangs.

So if congress decides to "do something" I guarantee it won't change things statistically, because it won't address the root causes of the majority of gun deaths in the US. Poverty, gangs, drugs, etc.

Gun deaths in the US have been steadily decreasing overall. They only remain high in the poor areas of the country. Chicago's draconian gun laws have done next to nothing to slow down their shootings. Chicago, Philidelphia, Detroit, New Orleans, Baltimore, Oakland, Memphis, etc. are all related by the fact they have large populations of people with few prospects for life outside of poverty, gangs, and drugs. There's your problem to fix if you want to get serious about gun violence. Because it's a violence due to disenfranchisement problem not a gun problem.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If you have guns in a gun-free zone, you stand out from the crowd.

Ever hear of concealed carry? You don't stand out, nobody knows you have it until you draw it.

The shooters bringing in the long guns would certainly be noticed and it's almost always illegal (most mass shootings happen in areas where guns are not allowed)--note that it's not a deterrent.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Our city was getting tired of gang violence and tried to stop it with extra layers of gun control. Well past whatever congress with pat themselves on the back for attempting to pass. To buy a handgun privately you need a purchase permit from the county Sheriff. $5 and a background check. To buy from a dealer, they run the background check at the point of sale.

Then to possess the gun in the city limits you must take your privately transacted gun and bill of sale or dealer bill of sale down to the police headquarters. They run another background check on you and a check on the gun's serial numbers to see if it was stolen. If you come out clean, they give you a permit for the handgun and you walk out with it or go back and get it from the dealer. If not, they confiscate the handgun for a private sale or the dealer doesn't give you your gun and you have to try to get a refund from them. So buying in the city legally takes about a normal working day's worth of time.

It's sort of like Chicago's FOID system but less restrictive and just as not-effective. Since implementing it, homicides and shootings haven't really changed much for the demographic targeted. They've gone up or down for the same reasons gun violence has fluctuated for decades. Drugs and gangs.

So if congress decides to "do something" I guarantee it won't change things statistically, because it won't address the root causes of the majority of gun deaths in the US. Poverty, gangs, drugs, etc.

Gun deaths in the US have been steadily decreasing overall. They only remain high in the poor areas of the country. Chicago's draconian gun laws have done next to nothing to slow down their shootings. Chicago, Philidelphia, Detroit, New Orleans, Baltimore, Oakland, Memphis, etc. are all related by the fact they have large populations of people with few prospects for life outside of poverty, gangs, and drugs. There's your problem to fix if you want to get serious about gun violence. Because it's a violence due to disenfranchisement problem not a gun problem.

Locally we finally scrapped our handgun registration scheme. The records simply went into storage, they served no purpose, it was just bureaucracy.

They also implemented something that makes sense: You can use your concealed carry permit in lieu of the normal background check. I have long been after separating the checking from the gun purchase, that's sort of what they did but I would make it 100%: You have to demonstrate that you know the law and safe handling (and have kept your nose clean) to get a license. You show the license to get a gun.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

If you have guns in a gun-free zone, you stand out from the crowd.

Ever hear of concealed carry? You don't stand out, nobody knows you have it until you draw it.

The shooters bringing in the long guns would certainly be noticed and it's almost always illegal (most mass shootings happen in areas where guns are not allowed)

Wait... if guns aren't allowed, why does the conceal carry guy have one? And how do you know the person isn't using the gun in self-defense? Seriously, the problem we have in America is that there are too many guns.

 

[arkirk]

Education; changing attitudes to the use of violence as a viable means [perceived] of resolving problems. The shoot 'em up hero mentality should be eradicated, for a start.

You are right at the heart of how to cope with this extemely divisive and dangerous issue. If a person's first avenue of approach to any problem is violence, then all this gun mania attitude we see so much of these days seems to make sense to people and the NRA has a free field of operation. If we digress from the usual violent solution and try to work out something without violence first, whether you have a gun or not becomes less of a question and actually less important. The real problem is a lot of our society honors and respects bullies and domination and most of their rumination on problems is about how to come out on top, with your opponent clearly on the bottom.

 

[crispy]

And how do you propose to take all the guns people have hidden?

Don't think anyone proposed taking away every single gun, but putting a stop to selling ammo and guns sure helps.

 

[arkirk]

Our city was getting tired of gang violence and tried to stop it with extra layers of gun control. Well past whatever congress with pat themselves on the back for attempting to pass. To buy a handgun privately you need a purchase permit from the county Sheriff. $5 and a background check. To buy from a dealer, they run the background check at the point of sale.

Then to possess the gun in the city limits you must take your privately transacted gun and bill of sale or dealer bill of sale down to the police headquarters. They run another background check on you and a check on the gun's serial numbers to see if it was stolen. If you come out clean, they give you a permit for the handgun and you walk out with it or go back and get it from the dealer. If not, they confiscate the handgun for a private sale or the dealer doesn't give you your gun and you have to try to get a refund from them. So buying in the city legally takes about a normal working day's worth of time.

It's sort of like Chicago's FOID system but less restrictive and just as not-effective. Since implementing it, homicides and shootings haven't really changed much for the demographic targeted. They've gone up or down for the same reasons gun violence has fluctuated for decades. Drugs and gangs.

So if congress decides to "do something" I guarantee it won't change things statistically, because it won't address the root causes of the majority of gun deaths in the US. Poverty, gangs, drugs, etc.

Gun deaths in the US have been steadily decreasing overall. They only remain high in the poor areas of the country. Chicago's draconian gun laws have done next to nothing to slow down their shootings. Chicago, Philidelphia, Detroit, New Orleans, Baltimore, Oakland, Memphis, etc. are all related by the fact they have large populations of people with few prospects for life outside of poverty, gangs, and drugs. There's your problem to fix if you want to get serious about gun violence. Because it's a violence due to disenfranchisement problem not a gun problem.

Locally we finally scrapped our handgun registration scheme. The records simply went into storage, they served no purpose, it was just bureaucracy.

They also implemented something that makes sense: You can use your concealed carry permit in lieu of the normal background check. I have long been after separating the checking from the gun purchase, that's sort of what they did but I would make it 100%: You have to demonstrate that you know the law and safe handling (and have kept your nose clean) to get a license. You show the license to get a gun.

You still don't get it do you? You just told the kill crazy ones how to get a license and get a gun. We put too much emphasis on supplying a seemingly giant demand for guns when the guns themselves are very much like nuclear missiles...something you really should not have and something you surely should never be using. I don't want some jackass standing next to me in line at the theater with a couple of 9mm pistols concealed waiting for when the theater gets full. These mass killings you refer to are the culmination of a lot of hate filled planning on the part of the shooter. Surely he can hold his temper long enough to get one of your sacred concealed carry permits. I know a number of unstable people here who have gotten them. I think the idea of gun free areas is especially apropos in schools, public events and about anywhere there is a density of people. Concealed carry violates the right to control private areas and to deny access to gun toting idiots with destructive agendas.

 

[fromderinside]

First we need to now what we're up against. How about a comparison? There are about as many deaths by auto as there are deaths by gun and the estimated numbers of guns and autos are about the same.

With autos we have fairly robust regulation for everything from registration to use and penalty for misuse. This seems reasonable because autos are used almost everyday by most adults and many teens in the US. We even have estimates for types and extent of use which we can use for evaluating risk. There is very little intentional use of autos to kill people.

We have lots of registration laws for guns. What we can say about gun use is that it isn't very high, perhaps once or twice a year by adults owners. Most use is for pest control followed by hunting with very few using guns to intentionally kill humans.

So what have we got to compare? Well most deaths by guns are intentional whereas very few deaths by auto are intentional.

Seems to me that we've been pretty successful in limiting auto use as a weapon while we haven't been so successful with guns. This seems to be reflected in laws concerning murder by car and gun. Both are capital offenses as long as we don't mix up disease with fully capable intent (intoxicated) or incapacitated or insane),

There we seem to fall down with guns.

If guns were kept from the insane, incapacitated, or intoxicated would the numbers of intention gun deaths drop and would sentencing follow more along the automobile death model for length of conviction?

These are issues raised after just scanning comparison between the two leading non-medical killers.

Seems to me we should be focusing on government sponsored training and registration to weed out high risk persons from the gun holder population. Just these two factors might have effects similar to those obtained in the much more active automobile holder population.

Just wheezin'

Not much worse than the fact the second amendment is already just advisory except in the words of some 'strict' obstructionist on the Supreme Court.

 

[Shadowy Man]

And how do you propose to take all the guns people have hidden?

Guns aren't the problem. Bullets are.

 

[untermensche]

And how do you propose to take all the guns people have hidden?

Why didn't that question stop the drug war?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And how do you propose to take all the guns people have hidden?

Why didn't that question stop the drug war?

The drug war is insane.

It's a clear example of why we can't hope to get rid of guns.

 

[Ford]

Why didn't that question stop the drug war?

The drug war is insane.

It's a clear example of why we can't hope to get rid of guns.

Looks like the non sequitur containment field has failed.

 

[DBT]

And how do you propose to take all the guns people have hidden?

Guns aren't the problem. Bullets are.

Guns and bullets are not the problem, neither are knives or explosives, or anything else that can be potentially used as a weapon, it the mental attitude that a society/culture and its individuals have toward problem resolution that is the problem.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

How does disarming law-abiding citizens make them safer?

Because a typical law-abiding citizen is significantly more likely to be injured or killed by his OWN weapon than by someone else's.

More importantly, a law-abiding citizen with a gun is significantly more dangerous to his peers than a law-abiding citizen WITHOUT a gun.

Guns are extremely dangerous things. They are, in fact, supposed to be extremely dangerous; they wouldn't be all that useful to anyone if they weren't.

It's sort of like Chicago's FOID system but less restrictive and just as not-effective.

You realize the reason Chicago's gun laws are ineffective is because gun traffickers can just as easily drive forty five minutes to buy guns from Indiana -- or better yet, from Will or Lake county where the local ordinances are less restrictive -- and then immediately report the gun "stolen" when they sell it to gang bangers.

So if congress decides to "do something" I guarantee it won't change things statistically

I guarantee you it will.

Because gang bangers, clever little fucks that they may be, aren't going to travel all the way to Mexico just to buy a handgun, and gun traffickers won't invest that much time and energy trying to establish themselves in the international black market. It isn't actually a matter of BANNING guns, just making them harder to get for someone who shouldn't have them.

Poverty, gangs, drugs, etc.

Is a whole different can of worms, yes. But it also isn't the MAJOR cause of gun violence in America, seeing how the majority of shootings (contrary to media portrayal) are not gang-related.

Actually, almost every source I have read on the subject suggests that the majority of gun deaths in America are, in fact, suicides.

 

[credoconsolans]

Ever hear of concealed carry? You don't stand out, nobody knows you have it until you draw it.

The shooters bringing in the long guns would certainly be noticed and it's almost always illegal (most mass shootings happen in areas where guns are not allowed)

Wait... if guns aren't allowed, why does the conceal carry guy have one? And how do you know the person isn't using the gun in self-defense? Seriously, the problem we have in America is that there are too many guns.

Basically. When that Gabby woman in Arizona was shot down, one of the good guys was a concealed carrier and pulled out his gun to protect her. He almost got his ass shot by the police when they showed up. Can't tell the good guys from the bad guys in a shooting situation if everyone has a gun.

 

[bilby]

Requiring all drivers to be adults; to be licensed via a written and practical test to demonstrate their competence to drive; to be insured; and their cars to be registered, will have no effect on the number of illegal cars in society.

How would the authorities find all the unregistered cars that people have hidden? What would stop outlaws from simply driving unlicensed, unregistered or uninsured?

Sure, cars are dangerous; but requiring licences, insurance and registration would just drive the problem underground. Anyone who wanted an unregistered car would have no problem obtaining one.

The whole idea of closely regulating cars is just unworkable.

Sorry, did I say 'Cars'? Of course, I meant 'Guns', because those arguments are fucking insane if applied to anything other than guns.

Apparently.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Wait... if guns aren't allowed, why does the conceal carry guy have one? And how do you know the person isn't using the gun in self-defense? Seriously, the problem we have in America is that there are too many guns.

Basically. When that Gabby woman in Arizona was shot down, one of the good guys was a concealed carrier and pulled out his gun to protect her. He almost got his ass shot by the police when they showed up. Can't tell the good guys from the bad guys in a shooting situation if everyone has a gun.

The NRA told us we'd be better off with these laws. Now that we clearly aren't, their solution is "more guns".

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Requiring all drivers to be adults; to be licensed via a written and practical test to demonstrate their competence to drive; to be insured; and their cars to be registered, will have no effect on the number of illegal cars in society.

How would the authorities find all the unregistered cars that people have hidden? What would stop outlaws from simply driving unlicensed, unregistered or uninsured?

Sure, cars are dangerous; but requiring licences, insurance and registration would just drive the problem underground. Anyone who wanted an unregistered car would have no problem obtaining one.

The whole idea of closely regulating cars is just unworkable.

Sorry, did I say 'Cars'? Of course, I meant 'Guns', because those arguments are fucking insane if applied to anything other than guns.

Apparently.

The use of a car is obvious, you can't realistically hide one.

 

[bilby]

Requiring all drivers to be adults; to be licensed via a written and practical test to demonstrate their competence to drive; to be insured; and their cars to be registered, will have no effect on the number of illegal cars in society.

How would the authorities find all the unregistered cars that people have hidden? What would stop outlaws from simply driving unlicensed, unregistered or uninsured?

Sure, cars are dangerous; but requiring licences, insurance and registration would just drive the problem underground. Anyone who wanted an unregistered car would have no problem obtaining one.

The whole idea of closely regulating cars is just unworkable.

Sorry, did I say 'Cars'? Of course, I meant 'Guns', because those arguments are fucking insane if applied to anything other than guns.

Apparently.

The use of a car is obvious, you can't realistically hide one.

If someone drives a car past my house, I will barely notice. If someone fires a gun outside my house, you bet I will notice - they make a very loud 'bang' noise when used.

I'm surprised you didn't know that.