How unions devastate the airline industry

[ksen]

In other words, a company must do what the union wants if it's to remain in business. That's a recipe for disaster.

How come you don't think it's a recipe for disaster when it's: a worker must do what the executives want if he wants to keep eating?

 

[SimpleDon]

I've read a lot of S--t. So have we arrived at Shinola yet.

Just keep wondering how companies in an industry can use 16% of revenue for advertising. But, it will be devastated by being forced to bargain with a pilots union that only gets about 7% of the pie.

To be fair though, that 16% is actually the commissions they pay to the third parties who sell their tickets. So maybe the airlines should adopt the Southwest style and and only allow bookings through their own website.

I think the bigger problem with the pay structure of the pilots is the inexperienced pilots and longer shift and the concern for safety of the passengers.

I don't believe that the regional airlines are as unionized as the national airlines are.

Southwestern is not a union airline. They pay much lower wages than the other airlines. This is their competitive advantage, that they pay lower wages. This is why I say that we must get away from using lower wages as a competitive advantage.

Airlines have dramatically reduced the commissions that they pay. Most travel agencies that do routine travel arrangements like business travel now charge a fee to do it. We hired a travel agency to book our employees' travel, they were spending too much time on line booking their travel, it cost us less to let the travel agency do it.

I would think that a majority of the 16% is for exactly what they say that it is for, advertising, television, magazine, billboards, etc.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Once again, negotiating industry wide wages for a category of worker is the only way to eliminate wages as a competitive factor in pricing and in profits. If everyone in the industry has to pay the same wages that eliminates the pressure for any one company to push wages down in their company to gain an advantage over other companies. They have to compete in other areas to earn business.

It also reduces friction between the management and the workers in a company if wages are negotiated industry wide.

It is not just wages, it is working conditions. Employers are reluctant to, for example, reduce the work week or to increase vacation time because of competitive pressures. If the changes are industry wide this problem is eliminated. Reducing the work week is an obvious solution for under employment and for the displacement from automation.

In other words, a company must do what the union wants if it's to remain in business. That's a recipe for disaster.

I don't think that you are understanding what I am saying. I am not saying that the unions should run the companies, which is what you are trying to make it.

I am saying that wages are too important to be subject to competitive pressures. That all of the companies should be paying the same wages for the same work. That the wage rates and the working conditions should be negotiated industry wide, not each company negotiating with its own employees.

There is nothing in that that gives the unions more control over what the company does. The management still runs the company. They just will have to compete based on something other than whatever wage breaks that they could make.

It's giving the union tremendous control. If the company doesn't agree to the union demands it can't operate.

In practice it means anything that can be outsourced would be. The Great Depression would look good in comparison.

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I believe there should be a reasonable safety net--but I believe it should come from the government. Trying to make business do it is dirty accounting and that's always a bad thing.

What on earth is dirty accounting? I don't see where accounting has anything to do with this discussion.

Enron is the poster child for what I'm talking about. In this case, pushing liabilities off the books.

When you make business provide welfare it's really just a hidden tax on business--and an inefficient one.

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In other words, a company must do what the union wants if it's to remain in business. That's a recipe for disaster.

How come you don't think it's a recipe for disaster when it's: a worker must do what the executives want if he wants to keep eating?

That was quite a problem in the era of company towns.

Now the employee just goes to the competition.

 

[ksen]

In other words, a company must do what the union wants if it's to remain in business. That's a recipe for disaster.

How come you don't think it's a recipe for disaster when it's: a worker must do what the executives want if he wants to keep eating?

That was quite a problem in the era of company towns.

Now the employee just goes to the competition.

They do? There are that many jobs available?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In other words, a company must do what the union wants if it's to remain in business. That's a recipe for disaster.

How come you don't think it's a recipe for disaster when it's: a worker must do what the executives want if he wants to keep eating?

That was quite a problem in the era of company towns.

Now the employee just goes to the competition.

They do? There are that many jobs available?

In decent times, yes. The unions hate that, that's why they do things like basing pay on seniority rather than experience--make it so the only way to get more money is through the union.

 

[bilby]

In other words, a company must do what the union wants if it's to remain in business. That's a recipe for disaster.

How come you don't think it's a recipe for disaster when it's: a worker must do what the executives want if he wants to keep eating?

That was quite a problem in the era of company towns.

Now the employee just goes to the competition.

They do? There are that many jobs available?

In decent times, yes. The unions hate that, that's why they do things like basing pay on seniority rather than experience--make it so the only way to get more money is through the union.

Decent times? WTF are 'decent times' and how common are they?

If there are times which are not 'decent', do you favour unionisation during those times?

As far as I can tell, only times of close to full employment would fit the bill; but if full employment is what defines 'decent times', we haven't had 'decent times' for several decades - indeed, precious few people currently in the workforce would be able to remember 'decent times'. That being the case, it might be a good idea to plan one's labour policies such that they work in 'indecent times', given that 'indecent times' apparently are the norm.

 

[DBT]

'The Union' does nothing of its own accord. A union is composed of its membership, a collection of individual workers who vote for or against a proposed action at their general meeting. Just as Employers in Australia have their own Union: Australian Federation of Employers and Industries (AFEI), formulating employer policy and is ''actively involved in all major workplace relations issues affecting Australian businesses.''

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Decent times? WTF are 'decent times' and how common are they?

If there are times which are not 'decent', do you favour unionisation during those times?

As far as I can tell, only times of close to full employment would fit the bill; but if full employment is what defines 'decent times', we haven't had 'decent times' for several decades - indeed, precious few people currently in the workforce would be able to remember 'decent times'. That being the case, it might be a good idea to plan one's labour policies such that they work in 'indecent times', given that 'indecent times' apparently are the norm.

Most of the time is decent time.

'The Union' does nothing of its own accord. A union is composed of its membership, a collection of individual workers who vote for or against a proposed action at their general meeting. Just as Employers in Australia have their own Union: Australian Federation of Employers and Industries (AFEI), formulating employer policy and is ''actively involved in all major workplace relations issues affecting Australian businesses.''

Unions are controlled by the union bosses.

 

[ksen]

Most of the time is decent time.

Except when it's not which is usually.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Most of the time is decent time.

Except when it's not which is usually.

Just because we have had what amounts to a depression recently doesn't mean that's the normal pattern.

 

[DBT]

Unions are controlled by the union bosses.

Not in my experience. I've never seen a ''union boss'' dictating terms to the members at a general meeting. All proposals are put forward by the members and a vote is taken. The union rep then goes to negotiate with management on behalf of the members. This is standard procedure.

 

[ksen]

Most of the time is decent time.

Except when it's not which is usually.

Just because we have had what amounts to a depression recently doesn't mean that's the normal pattern.

Full employment is not the normal pattern.

 

[untermensche]

A competent pilot union negotiator will present the airline with a plan to transfer essentially all expected future profits into the paychecks of pilots.

This is pulled directly from the authors ass.

It is clear he has never participated in labor negotiations and doesn't have a clue.