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How unions devastate the airline industry

Ahh. That explains why there isn't an airline industry then. I wondered why it was devastated.

:rolleyesa:

One bitter junior pilot rated on small aircraft types (76 pax) is not an un-biased source; the experienced guys flying the wide-bodied jets are enabling a shitload more dollars per hour of revenue for their employers than this guy, and his sour grapes about not being paid at their level are not evidence of a problem outside his head.

The top guys make a good salary, but hardly 'a mint'; and they are the top guys because they know the aircraft, and they know the airline SOPs, and they are available to train the new guys in those important areas.

If the FAA rules, which demonstrably have resulted in extremely high levels of safety, lead also to unionisation, then that suggests that unionisation is either a good thing, or neutral (from a safety POV).

Your desire to fly incredibly cheaply does not trump safety; Your religious belief that unions are always bad does not make it true.
 
I have known a few pilots, and yes the unions do tend to be crazy with the seniority. Get paid way more the longer you are there, and get all the best routes too, along with other perks.
 
It's only a guess, but I'd say two things that hurt the airline industry more than unions are fuel prices and fear of terrorism.
Is it no longer true that if the majority of members don't think a union rule works for them, they can vote to change it?

Actually, this doesn't look all that outrageous to me http://www.avjobs.com/salaries-wages-pay/pilot-pay.asp
On the other hand,
the CEO of a top U.S. airline generally easily makes $1 million or more annually. In many cases, a CEO working for an airline receives other compensation in addition to straight cash payments. According to numbers reported by the Associated Press, average U.S. airline CEO compensation in 2011 was nearly $3.5 million.http://work.chron.com/average-ceo-salary-airline-industry-9706.html
Click to expand...
does, rather.
 
As far as I am aware, every pilot gets to vote the new collective agreement so unless there is a significantly greater number of senior pilots, the junior and middle tenure pilots would be able to carry the decision. Unions can also vote to change who represents them so even in an industry that may legislate collective bargaining, if the members do not feel that the union is representing them properly, they can seek another representative body. It happened a few years ago in Canada, that a segment of the airline industry was dissatisfied with their representation and they sought and got a new union.

Possibly US laws are different but the article, while interesting, does not ring solid with me.
 
Presumably the senior pilots get all the pay and perks because they are imitating the management structure of the airline, which acts in an identical way despite not being unionised. Except that the management structure has a much, much steeper difference in pay scale between the most senior and the least senior.

Seems odd to blame the unions for that.
 
Togo said:
Presumably the senior pilots get all the pay and perks because they are imitating the management structure of the airline, which acts in an identical way despite not being unionised. Except that the management structure has a much, much steeper difference in pay scale between the most senior and the least senior.
Click to expand...
Good point. It seems to be some very elitist theory of society, that business leaders and only business leaders have the right to good pay, job security, restrictions on how easy it is to fire them, a right to organize to lobby for their interests, etc. Thus, any challengers of business leaders to high status, like those aforementioned pilots, become usurpers.
 
I couldn't find anything about the airline industry being devastated. The linked article details exploitation of junior pilots in which the author thinks unions are instrumental. A claim I doubt would withstand much scrutiny. While airlines can find junior pilots (like the author) willing to work for $20K or less, junior pilots wouldn't gain a single cent from senior pilots losing negotiating power and wages.
 
Everything he actually says in his article supports my own personal experiences as the daughter of and wife of pilots - the disparity in pilot pay is the result of too weak unions, not too strong.
 
Is it even the case for all airlines that the seniors always demand higher pay?
 
I agree with the OP, if it weren't for the unions, we would all fly free to any location without any hidden fees for things like baggage and fuel surcharges.

Damn unions.
 
I'm not afraid of terrorists hijacking planes but I dislike paying a lot of money to be treated badly especially when my flights may be cancelled or delayed ory baggage (which I pay extra to check) may be lost all of which impinge on my already limited vacation time. Not to mention the amount of time seeking out decent fares and flights, travel to/from airports and parking. And being forced to remove shoes, be crated, searched, questioned and otherwise harassed while paying extra fees for the privilege. This is why I fly only if it is the only practical means of reaching my destintion. And probably one of the reasons airlines struggle, although the price of fuel is a significant cost as well.
 
Yeah, those nasty unchecked unions unilaterally undid the airline industry. It is a shame that no one can fly on an airline or that management never made any decisions or that no POTUS ever prevented a strike by declaring that domestic air travel was vital to the US economy. Otherwise, just think what air travel would br like today.
 
Loren Pechtel said:
http://philip.greenspun.com/flying/unions-and-airlines.html

A perfect example of what unchecked union power does.

Pilots have an unbreakable union, the top guys make a mint, everyone else gets screwed--including the flying public on commuter airlines with overworked, underpaid pilots.
Click to expand...

Since the airlines have discovered they can over work and underpay pilots on commuter lines, why do they continue to pay top guys a mint?

There's no such thing as an unbreakable union. Did the union negotiators hold some airline executive's family hostage during the negotiations? Why should a contract made between consenting adult be a bad thing?
 
bilby said:
Ahh. That explains why there isn't an airline industry then. I wondered why it was devastated.
Click to expand...

There's an airline industry for the simple reason: Cabotage.

There would be no US airline industry otherwise.

The top guys make a good salary, but hardly 'a mint'; and they are the top guys because they know the aircraft, and they know the airline SOPs, and they are available to train the new guys in those important areas.

If the FAA rules, which demonstrably have resulted in extremely high levels of safety, lead also to unionisation, then that suggests that unionisation is either a good thing, or neutral (from a safety POV).

Your desire to fly incredibly cheaply does not trump safety; Your religious belief that unions are always bad does not make it true.
Click to expand...

Some of the top guys can make upwards of $300k--20x what the guys on the bottom make. There's not that much difference in skills. In a fair market the guys on the bottom would make more, the guys on the top would make less.

- - - Updated - - -

RavenSky said:
Everything he actually says in his article supports my own personal experiences as the daughter of and wife of pilots - the disparity in pilot pay is the result of too weak unions, not too strong.
Click to expand...

Too weak? Unions that repeatedly drive their employers into bankruptcy are too weak??

What you're seeing is the people at the top hoarding the perks.

- - - Updated - - -

Bronzeage said:
Loren Pechtel said:
http://philip.greenspun.com/flying/unions-and-airlines.html

A perfect example of what unchecked union power does.

Pilots have an unbreakable union, the top guys make a mint, everyone else gets screwed--including the flying public on commuter airlines with overworked, underpaid pilots.
Click to expand...

Since the airlines have discovered they can over work and underpay pilots on commuter lines, why do they continue to pay top guys a mint?

There's no such thing as an unbreakable union. Did the union negotiators hold some airline executive's family hostage during the negotiations? Why should a contract made between consenting adult be a bad thing?
Click to expand...

It's unbreakable because the law doesn't permit strikebreakers. An airline makes an agreement with it's pilot's union or it closes it's doors. Those are the only two choices.
 
Loren Pechtel said:
There's an airline industry for the simple reason: Cabotage.

There would be no US airline industry otherwise.
Click to expand...

So you are saying that the US airline industry is the only unionised airline industry in the world?

Or are you trying to suggest that things would be so much better if only the plucky Nigerian and Venezuelan aviation industries were given fair access to the lucrative NY-LA route?

Or are you conceding that there isn't, in fact, any "devastating" going on at all, but that if everything was totally different, there might be?

OMG!!1! We must act now, to prevent the airlines being devastated by massive changes to their operating environment, involving alterations to long-standing international treaties, that nobody is calling for! Those damn, damn, unions. It must be them at the root of this non-issue. :rolleyesa:

Meanwhile back in the real world, pilots with long experience are retained by airlines, who pay them well because they recognize their value, not just as pilots, but as trainers and mentors to their more junior colleagues. Obviously the fact that the unions do not object to this practice imakes it bad. It is only good when it is done to a greater degree to retain much less skilled executives; in that case, it is fine, because the executives don't have a union. It makes me wonder how executives can get such good perks and pay, with no union to give them a voice in the boardroom. Oh, wait...
 
Loren Pechtel said:
http://philip.greenspun.com/flying/unions-and-airlines.html

A perfect example of what unchecked union power does.

Pilots have an unbreakable union, the top guys make a mint, everyone else gets screwed--including the flying public on commuter airlines with overworked, underpaid pilots.
Click to expand...

Just in case someone hadn't noticed this was a hit piece here are numbers on
pilot pay. http://www.bls.gov/ooh/transportation-and-material-moving/airline-and-commercial-pilots.htm#tab-5

The median annual wage for airline pilots, copilots, and flight engineers was $114,200 in May 2012. The median wage is the wage at which half the workers in an occupation earned more than that amount and half earned less. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $66,970, and the top 10 percent earned more than $187,200.
Click to expand...

I'm also providing for comparison aerospace engineer pay. http://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/aerospace-engineers.htm#tab-5

The median annual wage for aerospace engineers was $103,720 in May 2012. The median wage is the wage at which half of the workers in an occupation earned more than that amount and half earned less. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $65,450, and the top 10 percent earned more than $149,120.
Click to expand...

What appears to be happening is that airlines are using pay as an issue to hold down pilot pay for pilots with less than 5 years experience. No one trained to the level pilots are required to train should be paid less than school bus drivers or even entry level engineers for that matter.
 
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