Human Hybrid Gen1 Found in Russia :eek:

[Elixir]

Prehistoric girl had parents belonging to different human species

A sliver of bone from a cave in Russia is at the centre of what may be the biggest archaeological story of the year. The bone belonged to an ancient human who had a Neanderthal mother and a Denisovan father. “Denny” is the only first-generation hybrid hominin ever found.
...
Her DNA was almost 50:50 Neanderthal and Denisovan, arranged in a tell‑tale way. Our DNA comes in paired strands called chromosomes, one from each parent. In Denny’s case, each pair had one Neanderthal and one Denisovan chromosome, with very little mixing. She was the daughter of parents from different species.
...
Denny’s mitochondrial DNA, which is inherited only from mothers, is Neanderthal. Therefore, her mother was Neanderthal and her father Denisovan. Experts contacted by New Scientist all accept the finding. “They nail it,” says Pontus Skoglund of the Francis Crick Institute in London, UK. “There seems to be no uncertainty at all.”

Amazing that they could reconstruct DNA from a sample that old.

 

[Politesse]

Well, this discovery rather gives fuel to the lumper side of the lumper/splitter conversation. i.e., if two species can have a viable offspring, by at least one common definition they aren't in fact two species but one.

Very cool discovery though. We'd already found a fair amount of evidence of DNA admixture between Denisovans, Neanderthals, and African human populations, but this case is quite straightforward.

 

[ruby sparks]

One wonders if she would have been able to reproduce, given that as I understand it, hybrids that we know of today are generally infertile.

 

[Politesse]

One wonders if she would have been able to reproduce, given that as I understand it, hybrids that we know of today are generally infertile.

What hybrid humans are you talking about? We're the last species standing, that is not in dispute. And we non-African humans have large segments of Neanderthal and Denisovan DNA in our genome, so at least some hybrid pairings must have resulted in reproductive success. There's only one way to inherit a gene.

 

[skepticalbip]

One wonders if she would have been able to reproduce, given that as I understand it, hybrids that we know of today are generally infertile.

What hybrid humans are you talking about? We're the last species standing, that is not in dispute. And we non-African humans have large segments of Neanderthal and Denisovan DNA in our genome, so at least some hybrid pairings must have resulted in reproductive success. There's only one way to inherit a gene.

That's not necessarily true. It is possible that Sapiens and Neanderthals mating could produce fertile offspring, that Sapiens and Denisovans mating could produce fertile offspring, but that Neanderthals and Denisovans mating could produce sterile offspring. Further that the Sapien/Neanderthal hybrid and Sapien/Denisovan hybrid mating could produce fertile offspring.

Ring species can result in some non-intuitive results.

It could be that Sapiens and Denisovans mating yield sterile offspring and we got the Denisovan DNA through Sapiens mating with Neanderthal/Denisovan hybrids.

 

[ruby sparks]

One wonders if she would have been able to reproduce, given that as I understand it, hybrids that we know of today are generally infertile.

What hybrid humans are you talking about? We're the last species standing, that is not in dispute. And we non-African humans have large segments of Neanderthal and Denisovan DNA in our genome, so at least some hybrid pairings must have resulted in reproductive success. There's only one way to inherit a gene.

I meant other animal hybrids.

It's not my area of expertise. I am not even sure exactly what, at chromosomal level, constitutes a hybrid, or whether there are degrees of it etc.

I was thinking of ligers, for example.

 

[barbos]

I think it was established that modern humans (white European specifically) have some Neanderthal DNA, so their offspring was sufficiently fertile.

Degree to which hybrids are infertile depends on how much DNA is different, it has to complement each other to stick together during meiosis, otherwise it fails. Black-white "hybrids" are measurably less fertile than black-black and white-white.

Animal hybrids (big cats for example) are sometimes fertile.

 

[Politesse]

I think it was established that modern humans (white European specifically) have some Neanderthal DNA, so their offspring was sufficiently fertile.

Degree to which hybrids are infertile depends on how much DNA is different, it has to complement each other to stick together during meiosis, otherwise it fails. Black-white "hybrids" are measurably less fertile than black-black and white-white.

Animal hybrids (big cats for example) are sometimes fertile.

Not just "white Europeans", almost all non-African human populations have varying amounts of genetic contributions from Neanderthals, scattered across nearly a fifth of our total genome. There has also been evidence of contributions in some populations from the Denisovans as well as a third, as-yet unknown contributor of similarly distinct material.

 

[Politesse]

One wonders if she would have been able to reproduce, given that as I understand it, hybrids that we know of today are generally infertile.

What hybrid humans are you talking about? We're the last species standing, that is not in dispute. And we non-African humans have large segments of Neanderthal and Denisovan DNA in our genome, so at least some hybrid pairings must have resulted in reproductive success. There's only one way to inherit a gene.

That's not necessarily true. It is possible that Sapiens and Neanderthals mating could produce fertile offspring, that Sapiens and Denisovans mating could produce fertile offspring, but that Neanderthals and Denisovans mating could produce sterile offspring. Further that the Sapien/Neanderthal hybrid and Sapien/Denisovan hybrid mating could produce fertile offspring.

Ring species can result in some non-intuitive results.

It could be that Sapiens and Denisovans mating yield sterile offspring and we got the Denisovan DNA through Sapiens mating with Neanderthal/Denisovan hybrids.

A good point.

 

[barbos]

I think it was established that modern humans (white European specifically) have some Neanderthal DNA, so their offspring was sufficiently fertile.

Degree to which hybrids are infertile depends on how much DNA is different, it has to complement each other to stick together during meiosis, otherwise it fails. Black-white "hybrids" are measurably less fertile than black-black and white-white.

Animal hybrids (big cats for example) are sometimes fertile.

Not just "white Europeans", almost all non-African human populations have varying amounts of genetic contributions from Neanderthals, scattered across nearly a fifth of our total genome. There has also been evidence of contributions in some populations from the Denisovans as well as a third, as-yet unknown contributor of similarly distinct material.

fifth? where did you get this number?I think it's 1-5%

 

[Politesse]

I think it was established that modern humans (white European specifically) have some Neanderthal DNA, so their offspring was sufficiently fertile.

Degree to which hybrids are infertile depends on how much DNA is different, it has to complement each other to stick together during meiosis, otherwise it fails. Black-white "hybrids" are measurably less fertile than black-black and white-white.

Animal hybrids (big cats for example) are sometimes fertile.

Not just "white Europeans", almost all non-African human populations have varying amounts of genetic contributions from Neanderthals, scattered across nearly a fifth of our total genome. There has also been evidence of contributions in some populations from the Denisovans as well as a third, as-yet unknown contributor of similarly distinct material.

fifth? where did you get this number?I think it's 1-5%

In terms of what parts of our genome are thought to be affected by the exchange, not the amount of material. Quite a spectrum of traits are involved.

 

[Elixir]

I think it was established that modern humans (white European specifically) have some Neanderthal DNA, so their offspring was sufficiently fertile.

Degree to which hybrids are infertile depends on how much DNA is different, it has to complement each other to stick together during meiosis, otherwise it fails. Black-white "hybrids" are measurably less fertile than black-black and white-white.

Animal hybrids (big cats for example) are sometimes fertile.

Mules too...

I do wonder about "sufficient fertility". Especially as it relates to the attractiveness of a hybrid to a "purebred". I have always had an irrational attraction to mixed race women, finding them generally exotic. Maybe others find them weird or repulsive, but I suspect that over time, attraction to the exotic would win out in the reproductive race.

Black-white "hybrids" are measurably less fertile than black-black and white-white.

Reference? I couldn't find anything to support that.

Using data from the 2002 and 2006–2015 National Survey of Family Growth, this study compares the risk of pregnancy and the pregnancy intentions of interracial couples with those of same‐race couples. Interracial couples' risk of pregnancy differed little from that of same‐race White couples, with the exception of White wife–Black husband couples, whose risk of pregnancy was higher than both same‐race White and Black couples.

Mixed breed dogs are (supposedly) proof that "hybrid vigor" is a thing.

 

[skepticalbip]

Mules too...

I do wonder about "sufficient fertility". Especially as it relates to the attractiveness of a hybrid to a "purebred". I have always had an irrational attraction to mixed race women, finding them generally exotic. Maybe others find them weird or repulsive, but I suspect that over time, attraction to the exotic would win out in the reproductive race.



Reference? I couldn't find anything to support that.

Using data from the 2002 and 2006–2015 National Survey of Family Growth, this study compares the risk of pregnancy and the pregnancy intentions of interracial couples with those of same‐race couples. Interracial couples' risk of pregnancy differed little from that of same‐race White couples, with the exception of White wife–Black husband couples, whose risk of pregnancy was higher than both same‐race White and Black couples.

Mixed breed dogs are (supposedly) proof that "hybrid vigor" is a thing.

My understanding of "hybrid vigor" is that it means qualities such as strength, endurance, disease immunity, etc., not so much fertility. For example a mule shows "hybrid vigor" in that it is longer living, stronger, has more stamina, and has better immune system than a horse... but it is a very rare mule that isn't sterile.

 

[Elixir]

My understanding of "hybrid vigor" is that it means qualities such as strength, endurance, disease immunity, etc., not so much fertility. For example a mule shows "hybrid vigor" in that it is longer living, stronger, has more stamina, and has better immune system than a horse... but it is a very rare mule that isn't sterile.

Very good point. I understand hybrid vigor the same way. A degree of fertility does have to be assumed retroactively because of the enduring evidence of interbreeding. The genetic distance between horses and donkeys (bless their goofy hearts) is relatively vast, compared to variance between human "races" of today. I don't know how much variation there ever was between Sapiens, Denisovans and Neanderthals compared to donkeys/horses, but my surmise assumed that in general, qualities such as strength, endurance, disease immunity, etc. do confer a reproductive advantage upon a population.

I envision a scenario where population A is hunting & gathering within a range, population B shows up in that range and the most powerful male individual within a tribe of either population might have appropriated a female or females from the other population. The offspring, as "property" of that powerful male individual, might be given special social status within the tribe, another reproductive advantage.
I could also see how such hybrids might have very bad reproductive odds because ... different.

 

[barbos]

Mules too...

I do wonder about "sufficient fertility". Especially as it relates to the attractiveness of a hybrid to a "purebred". I have always had an irrational attraction to mixed race women, finding them generally exotic. Maybe others find them weird or repulsive, but I suspect that over time, attraction to the exotic would win out in the reproductive race.



Reference? I couldn't find anything to support that.

Using data from the 2002 and 2006–2015 National Survey of Family Growth, this study compares the risk of pregnancy and the pregnancy intentions of interracial couples with those of same‐race couples. Interracial couples' risk of pregnancy differed little from that of same‐race White couples, with the exception of White wife–Black husband couples, whose risk of pregnancy was higher than both same‐race White and Black couples.

Mixed breed dogs are (supposedly) proof that "hybrid vigor" is a thing.

You don't understand, People of mixed race are less fertile, not couples of different races.
"hybrid vigor" is irrelevant here.

 

[barbos]

fifth? where did you get this number?I think it's 1-5%

In terms of what parts of our genome are thought to be affected by the exchange, not the amount of material. Quite a spectrum of traits are involved.

That's a very arbitrary and vague way of counting.

 

[Politesse]

fifth? where did you get this number?I think it's 1-5%

In terms of what parts of our genome are thought to be affected by the exchange, not the amount of material. Quite a spectrum of traits are involved.

That's a very arbitrary and vague way of counting.

I'm not counting anything. You have a strange way of thinking about things.

 

[Jokodo]

Mules too...

I do wonder about "sufficient fertility". Especially as it relates to the attractiveness of a hybrid to a "purebred". I have always had an irrational attraction to mixed race women, finding them generally exotic. Maybe others find them weird or repulsive, but I suspect that over time, attraction to the exotic would win out in the reproductive race.



Reference? I couldn't find anything to support that.

Using data from the 2002 and 2006–2015 National Survey of Family Growth, this study compares the risk of pregnancy and the pregnancy intentions of interracial couples with those of same‐race couples. Interracial couples' risk of pregnancy differed little from that of same‐race White couples, with the exception of White wife–Black husband couples, whose risk of pregnancy was higher than both same‐race White and Black couples.

Mixed breed dogs are (supposedly) proof that "hybrid vigor" is a thing.

You don't understand, People of mixed race are less fertile, not couples of different races.
"hybrid vigor" is irrelevant here.

That's a claim that would need some factual support.

Im other words, did you just make that up?

 

[barbos]

You don't understand, People of mixed race are less fertile, not couples of different races.
"hybrid vigor" is irrelevant here.

That's a claim that would need some factual support.

Im other words, did you just make that up?

No, I read about it long time ago. And it is not really that remarkable claim if you know how that stuff works.

 

[barbos]

That's a very arbitrary and vague way of counting.

I'm not counting anything. You have a strange way of thinking about things.

It's not me, it's you. You made a remarkable claim which I am more than certain is made up.
OK, I did your work for you and and found out where your 20% come from. It means 20% of neanderthal genome are present in human genome. It does not contradict to the fact that any given not-african human on average have only 1-4% of neanderthal DNA.

so your:

Not just "white Europeans", almost all non-African human populations have varying amounts of genetic contributions from Neanderthals, scattered across nearly a fifth of our total genome

Is patently false or at least misstatement.