I can easily prove that God does not exist, but...

[atrib]

I get tired too.
Tired of atheists who are adamant that something doesn't exist - they just can't say what it is they don't believe in.

At the end of the day, you know and I know that you don't actually know anything about god. You may have read some scripture, and you have likely heard other people talking about their similar beliefs, but you don't really know anything about this god that you claim to worship. So stop pretending that you have access to some secret knowledge, stop acting superior and condescending, and for fuck's sake, stop pretending that you have presented valid arguments to support your position (whatever that might be, because we wouldn't know) when all you have done is post vague allusions and hints at best. You don't need other people's approval to believe whatever you want to believe, but if you want to earn their respect and be taken seriously, you have to participate in these discussions in a mature and upfront manner. You are not doing your cause any good by behaving the way you do.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

We can define God simply as THE Creator of life *which should be sufficient for most discussion regarding the bible but one or two possibly somewhere want much more than that, in a somewhat Dawkins-like manner to be successful.


(its a jest and Im tired now)

I get tired too.
Tired of atheists who are adamant that something doesn't exist - they just can't say what it is they don't believe in.

I believe there is no omnipotent, omniscient, morally perfect (i.e., omnimax) agent.
I also believe that the comments made in the Bible about the actions of an entity claimed to be the creator and called "God" or "Yahweh", fail to refer. In other words, I believe that the biblical creator does not exist - if he did, I also believe he would not be omnimax.

Also, I have pretty good reasons to believe the above.

 

[Bomb#20]

We can define God simply as THE Creator of life *which should be sufficient for most discussion regarding the bible...

If that's what you mean by "God" then you are not talking about the Biblical Christian God. A thing cannot create itself -- that would be a contradiction in terms -- and the God in the Bible is alive.

He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”​

- Matthew 16:15-16

I get tired too.
Tired of atheists who are adamant that something doesn't exist - they just can't say what it is they don't believe in.

A "god" is anything that wants to be worshiped and deserves to be. Worship is immoral. Therefore gods do not exist.

 

[angelo]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. For that reason alone God or gods cannot exist.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. For that reason alone God or gods cannot exist.

No, it means that they can exist, but if you want us to buy that story, give us some evidence that doesn't suck so badly.

If you live in a world with Superman, it's pretty damn easy to demonstrate that there's a flying alien in the city saving cats stuck in trees and swooping in to rescue reporters whenever they fall off of a building. It would be a crazy assed claim, but if it's backed up by good evidence, so it's one you need to accept as factual no matter how weird or off base it may be.

It's the same with gods. If there are any super powered beings out there interacting with our world and the people in it, it should be pretty damn easy to document those interactions and demonstrate their existence. It would be a crazy assed claim, but if it's backed up by good evidence then it would be one we'd need to accept as factual no matter how weird or off base it may be.

The problem with theists' claims is that their "evidence" kind of sucks.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

A "god" is anything that wants to be worshiped and deserves to be. Worship is immoral. Therefore gods do not exist.

Gods are idealized selves. People who have gods are actually worshiping themselves. Theists like to argue that the non religious are the ones engaged in self-worship. Nothing could be more inaccurate.

So, yes, theists really do have gods.

 

[Learner]

If that's what you mean by "God" then you are not talking about the Biblical Christian God. A thing cannot create itself -- that would be a contradiction in terms -- and the God in the Bible is alive.

He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”​

- Matthew 16:15-16

I get tired too.
Tired of atheists who are adamant that something doesn't exist - they just can't say what it is they don't believe in.

A "god" is anything that wants to be worshiped and deserves to be. Worship is immoral. Therefore gods do not exist.

Then as Atrib has indicated in his previous post .. its must be my lack of articulation or wording. (as usual)

Created life ... what did I mean? the life I'm talking about is: "organic" physical life-forms of a material universe. As its written ; life exists as an afterlife too.

The aspect of God wanting to be worshipped did not start from the beginning in Genesis until man started to worship other gods , as often noted for example when God said HE was a jealous God , but for our good reason and benefit (imo from the biblical sense).

 

[Learner]

We can define God simply as THE Creator of life *which should be sufficient for most discussion regarding the bible but one or two possibly somewhere want much more than that, in a somewhat Dawkins-like manner to be successful.

The moon goes through phases because it is in the nature of the moon to go through phases. That is how some people used to explain the phases of the moon.

Saying a god is the creator of life is like saying the moon is something that goes through phases. But there really is a physical moon that we can see, measure, observe, quantify, etc. A god isn't even that. So saying a god is the creator of life isn't saying anything about the god.

You're not arguing about any particular scriptures so this doesn't really challenge the biblical God , for example when it says : God created all the material physical things, and HE is a spirit entity. But then from the materialism pov it may sound valid IOW, you'll have to make such cases not from whats written within the bible (which can be challenged) but rather from the material world pov obviously , making it tough for those poor ordinary church goers to counter a defense outside the bible (not that they should need to).

 

[Elixir]

I get tired too.
Tired of atheists who are adamant that something doesn't exist - they just can't say what it is they don't believe in.

At the end of the day, you know and I know that you don't actually know anything about god. You may have read some scripture, and you have likely heard other people talking about their similar beliefs, but you don't really know anything about this god that you claim to worship. So stop pretending that you have access to some secret knowledge, stop acting superior and condescending, and for fuck's sake, stop pretending that you have presented valid arguments to support your position (whatever that might be, because we wouldn't know) when all you have done is post vague allusions and hints at best. You don't need other people's approval to believe whatever you want to believe, but if you want to earn their respect and be taken seriously, you have to participate in these discussions in a mature and upfront manner. You are not doing your cause any good by behaving the way you do.

I think you are failing to recognize that xtian fundies, whether they admit it or not, actually think that their favorite book has magical properties.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

We can define God simply as THE Creator of life *which should be sufficient for most discussion regarding the bible but one or two possibly somewhere want much more than that, in a somewhat Dawkins-like manner to be successful.

The moon goes through phases because it is in the nature of the moon to go through phases. That is how some people used to explain the phases of the moon.

Saying a god is the creator of life is like saying the moon is something that goes through phases. But there really is a physical moon that we can see, measure, observe, quantify, etc. A god isn't even that. So saying a god is the creator of life isn't saying anything about the god.

You're not arguing about any particular scriptures so this doesn't really challenge the biblical God , for example when it says : God created all the material physical things, and HE is a spirit entity. But then from the materialism pov it may sound valid IOW, you'll have to make cases not from whats written within the bible (which can be challenged) but rather from the material world pov obviously , making it tough for those poor ordinary church goers to counter a defense outside the bible (not that they should need to).

It challenges and answers any god question.

Not sure I want to walk into a 1st grade classroom and start discussing that Santa, elves and flying reindeer are not real based solely on the corpus of such tales written over centuries. So I take your point about your typical christian congregationist.

 

[abaddon]

... making it tough for those poor ordinary church goers to counter a defense outside the bible (not that they should need to).

Referencing reality makes it tough for believers. Haha.

No, they don't need to reference a reality outside their book if they prefer a human-made fantasy to inhuman reality.

Reality is what's still there when you stop talking about it, when you stop applying this or that human "viewpoint". There are no gods outside the noise-making of some funny apes, or outside the squiggles in their books, or outside their imaginations of other "realms".

 

[Learner]

... making it tough for those poor ordinary church goers to counter a defense outside the bible (not that they should need to).

Referencing reality makes it tough for believers. Haha.

No, they don't need to reference a reality outside their book if they prefer a human-made fantasy to inhuman reality.

Reality is what's still there when you stop talking about it, when you stop applying this or that human "viewpoint". There are no gods outside the noise-making of some funny apes, or outside the squiggles in their books, or outside their imaginations of other "realms".

Fairpoint. Church goers need not challenge in regards to their faith - do as the usual (is what I mean't ) not trying beyond their unfamiliarity with particular rules-of-logic by someone's own definition , like those on this thread which are not , to say the obvious ... brute fact! (at least not yet , if at all it were possible to know, like agnostics pondering on the possibility).


They may fail the logic or not have the right explanation ( defining language) but its not proof of .. NO GOD exists.



(apologies popping in and out trying to keep up)

 

[Lion IRC]

See Learner?

They : "What do you mean by God?"

We : "How can you say there's no God if you don't even know what it is you disbelieve?"

They : "Oh...we know all about God. It's all there in the bible. We know the bible better than you!"

We : Make up your mind.

 

[bilby]

See Learner?

They : "What do you mean by God?"

We : "How can you say there's no God if you don't even know what it is you disbelieve?"

They : "Oh...we know all about what many people mean by God. It's all there in the bible. We know the bible better than you! But if you mean something different than that disproven nonsense, now is the time to say what it is you believe"

We : Make up your mind.

They: What? Are you incapable of understanding a simple question? I have nothing to make up my mind about, until YOU tell me what the fuck you are on about.

FTFY

There are THOUSANDS of different and conflicting beliefs about what the word 'god' means. The more popular ones have been shown to be nonsense. If you want to claim that you have one that isn't nonsense, then it's on YOU to present it for consideration. If you don't, then it's perfectly reasonable for us to assume that your personal definition is nonsense too.

Claims without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

You claim to know of a god. We have seen many such claims before, and all coherent claims of this kind have, so far, been shown to be nonsensical. If you won't say why your claim is better than those already debunked, then you've got nothing.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Historically, gods started off as a rather primitive set of propositions and beliefs that over time, grew grander and more rococo and extravagant. But these extravagant claims from the theologians are self contradictory and incoherent. These extravagant perfect being Gods of theology are obviously false. This gives theists several option. Adopt lesser and lesser gods to avoid these problems, example Process Theology that has abandoned claims of omniscience and omnipotence, or play the "God is incomprehensible" card and abandon all pretense of rationality or reason. Or simply refuse to reason honestly that such problems exist. This all becomes a big game at best for theologians. Many still regurgitate the same old inadequate "proofs" merely rewritten to substitute rhetoric for reason.

 

[bilby]

 

[Angra Mainyu]

See Learner?

They : "What do you mean by God?"

We : "How can you say there's no God if you don't even know what it is you disbelieve?"

They : "Oh...we know all about God. It's all there in the bible. We know the bible better than you!"

We : Make up your mind.

That is a clear mischaracterization of the exchange(s) between you and the atheists in this thread (or the exchanges between Learner and the atheists in this thread). In fact, different atheists tell you different things.

 

[abaddon]

They may fail the logic or not have the right explanation ( defining language) but its not proof of .. NO GOD exists.

I don't care if there's no proof that God doesn't exist. What that leaves me with is no reason to believe that God exists. I don't start with "there's an invisible dragon in the garage" and then work towards why there isn't. Rather, I just don't start with the belief at all.

The millions of believers start with the belief and wonder "Why should I drop it?" That's why a couple theists come here and flip reason on its head and ask "Where's the disproof?" They're working backwards at how the reality of anything is known. Instead of setting belief aside and looking at what is, they come to the whole subject with a head filled with beliefs and wonder "why should I remove that which obstructs my sight?"

 

[Learner]

I don't care if there's no proof that God doesn't exist. What that leaves me with is no reason to believe that God exists. I don't start with "there's an invisible dragon in the garage" and then work towards why there isn't. Rather, I just don't start with the belief at all.

No reason to believe that God exists? Well, I haven't really seen anything yet convincing an explanation to suggest this today, to convince me to be atheist that is (I know .. Ive made up my mind you'll say). Many people believe by various personal experiences in which there are quite a few variables to put into the "equation" i.e. how these people "first " become believers before giving the simple dismissal by a one-line-for-all ,as you pointed out in your above.

There are of course the born into religions type cultures but... you have to also consider e.g. case by case former atheists /agnostics who have become theists , and for what reasons they did so.

My own reason which developed in short (a lot to explain) originally comes from what I read in: the psycology aspects of the writings and people like the early Christians in the Bible etc. but it has for me, opened up a new understanding and ... oddly ... "faith" followed ... " I can see it now! " (sort of thing).

The millions of believers start with the belief and wonder "Why should I drop it?" That's why a couple theists come here and flip reason on its head and ask "Where's the disproof?" They're working backwards at how the reality of anything is known. Instead of setting belief aside and looking at what is, they come to the whole subject with a head filled with beliefs and wonder "why should I remove that which obstructs my sight?

Im sure this may have happened but I wouldn't doubt that theists come here to flip reason back on its right side too (should there be some misleading shannigans a happening)

 

[angelo]

Their evidence is non existent. Therefore they can't produce any.
Superman has been seen in movies and such, so some people may claim they've seen him.
Looking at it that way there's more proof Superman existing than God, or gods.
I think it was Richard Dawkins who said that if such a being we would regard as God appeared to us, he like everything else in the cosmos evolved from a more primitive state.