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I have now met a real life creationist.

...Science is a process that builds incrementally upon the works of others who have worked before in any field. Scientists use the best tools and observations
Einstein blah blah blah Newton blah blah standing on the shoulders of giants blah blah blah.
Yeah I'm all choked up with emotion over the beauty of science.

...Why should intelligent design be considered a scientific theory? What predictions does it make and how these predictions be verified?

I guess we'll never know because ID is banned in the science class.
If they have faulty predictions won't those predictions be exposed by the scientific method?
It's not as if there aren't tons of other contentious scientific claims floating around.

...You claim to love science but you appear to lack an understanding of what science is.

Do you think I will still love science once I lern wot syense iz?

Science is a self-correcting process. Scientific claims are subject to peer review and...
Blah blah blah yes, yes, I know. Science keeps on correcting its mistakes.
So beautiful.
Thank God for empirical evidence and repeatable methods.

...How does one go about verifying and correcting the claims made by creationists?

Well a good start might be to look at those claims.
Aren't scientists supposed to be open-minded?

...Based on your posts here, it is obvious to me that you don't understand what science is.

How can I love something I don't understand?
And where have I posted anything which misstates or contradicts the scientific method?



...If by science fundy, you mean someone who believes in and adheres to the scientific process, than yes, many of us here are science fundies.

So I am right after all.
Thanks.


...Shutting your eyes and ears and going lalala may drown out what others are saying, but is this really how you want to live your life?

I love learning new things.
And unlike the folks who want to censor God out of science, I believe in free speech.
 
And unlike the folks who want to censor God out of science, I believe in free speech.
jBlah, blah, blah, throwing superstition out of 'science' class is censorship.
Heard it before, doesn't stand up to scrutiny, the courts threw it out.
 
Well said!


Or science. In science they're not called lies, they're called 'mistakes' or 'tentative' claims.

Science is a process that builds incrementally upon the works of others who have worked before in any field. Scientists use the best tools and observations available to them at any given time, and as the technology and the quality of our observations improves, so advances our state of knowledge. I will give you an example. Over 300 year ago, Newton published his understanding of how the universe works using a series of laws. Newton's laws defined a clockwork universe that works well for most of the conditions we deal with in our day to day lives, and is still used today by engineers and scientists for many tasks. About 100 years ago, Einstein published his Theory of General Relativity, which superseded Newton's laws and introduced a much better description of how the material universe and macroscopic objects behave. General Relativity works over a MUCH wider set of conditions, and can address the behavior of very massive objects moving at speeds close to the speed of light, which Newton's laws cannot do. This does not mean Newton was wrong, or his ideas should be discarded as irrelevant. The exact opposite is true. Newton advanced our state of knowledge enormously through his work, and later scientists have been able to build upon these ideas and advance them further.

...I'm constantly waiting for the irony of this to hit home among religious fundies.... nope. Never happens. They just don't grasp the topic well enough.

I'm a fundy. And I love science.
Sadly, a lot of atheists falsely think that science doesn't love me back.
And a lot of atheistic/scientistic academics goes berserk when you suggest that intelligent design should be an available menu option in the science classroom.
If the quest for truth is so important, why the strident censorship of competing ideas?

Why should intelligent design be considered a scientific theory? What predictions does it make and how these predictions be verified? You claim to love science but you appear to lack an understanding of what science is.

...They're constantly saying stuff that implies that they're suspicious about truth, but have faith in falsehoods... and don't get what they just said.

Nope. They aren't "suspicious about truth".
They are suspicious of falsehoods - those mistakes which science itself keeps correcting.

Science is a self-correcting process. Scientific claims are subject to peer review and correction. This is a GOOD thing. How does one go about verifying and correcting the claims made by creationists?

...Add to that the misunderstanding of what science is. As if it's a person. So any statement said by any scientist that's proven wrong proves all of science wrong.

Oh. You don't like generalizations?
...but you happily label Fundies and knock down strawmen who are "suspicious about truth".

Based on your posts here, it is obvious to me that you don't understand what science is.


...Ehe... no. It proves that science works. But you need to understand how science works to understand that. The fundies clearly don't.

Aren't you just another science fundy?

If by science fundy, you mean someone who believes in and adheres to the scientific process, than yes, many of us here are science fundies. We are open to facts and reason, and we can change our beliefs when new evidence is presented that contradicts previously held beliefs. As opposed to creationists who are unwilling to consider any new information and evidence that contradict their dogmatic beliefs. Shutting your eyes and ears and going lalala may drown out what others are saying, but is this really how you want to live your life?

So if, as say a hypothetical, if God himself (or herself as the case may be) came down out of heaven and bit you on the arse, you would give up evolution and science and convert to Christianity?
 
So if, as say a hypothetical, if God himself (or herself as the case may be) came down out of heaven and bit you on the arse, you would give up evolution and science and convert to Christianity?

Ridiculous. I've been bitten on the arse by worse things, and I'm no closer to converting to ___________(insert religion here). It would take a lot more than a bite on the butt, which can be meted out by virtually anything with a mouth.
When you see a helium balloon released you don't suddenly give up on gravity, do you? Granted, you might have been able to convince some people that such a thing disproved gravity if you showed it to them some hundreds of years ago, but probably not many would fall for it today (no pun intended).
 
So if, as say a hypothetical, if God himself (or herself as the case may be) came down out of heaven and bit you on the arse, you would give up evolution and science and convert to Christianity?

Why? I think you were a tad too vague...they are not mutually exclusives.

Dr. Francis Collins has a PHD in physical chemistry as well as being a medical doctor.
http://www.beliefnet.com/news/scien...-threatened-by-our-scientific-adventures.aspx
Francis Collins, a medical doctor, is director of the National Human Genome Research Institute and passionate about science. But the self-described Bible-believing Christian is just as passionate about his faith, which he came to after reading C.S. Lewis and seeing how religion sustained his gravely ill patients. Collins recently spoke with Beliefnet about his best-selling book The Language of God.
<snip>
It's also now been possible to compare our DNA with that of many other species. The evidence supporting the idea that all living things are descended from a common ancestor is truly overwhelming.

I would not necessarily wish that to be so, as a Bible-believing Christian. But it is so. It does not serve faith well to try to deny that.
 
Einstein blah blah blah Newton blah blah standing on the shoulders of giants blah blah blah.
Yeah I'm all choked up with emotion over the beauty of science.

I provided an example that even a mindfucked creotard could understand, but apparently not you! Or maybe you do understand and are unwilling to respond. What part of the example and the principle it illustrates do you not understand? Before Einstein there was Newton, before flash based computer storage there were huge electromagnetic tapes. Before computers that fit in your pocket there were computers that occupied a entire block. Progress is gradual, and each generation builds upon the work done by the previous generation. Which part of this concept do you not understand or not agree with?
...Why should intelligent design be considered a scientific theory? What predictions does it make and how these predictions be verified?

I guess we'll never know because ID is banned in the science class.
If they have faulty predictions won't those predictions be exposed by the scientific method?
It's not as if there aren't tons of other contentious scientific claims floating around.

The god concept is not falsifiable. The idea that this universe was created by the supernatural creator described in the Bible cannot be falsified. Intelligent design provides no predictions that can be tested against reality, and there is no evidence to support the claims of the Bible. In fact, many of the claims made in the Bible are demonstrably false. Why should ID be considered as a hypothesis deserving of scientific study? I have asked you this question but you did not respond.
...You claim to love science but you appear to lack an understanding of what science is.

Do you think I will still love science once I lern wot syense iz?

Who the fuck knows. Why are you not willing to make the effort to educate yourself instead of making a fool of yourself on these forums?

Science is a self-correcting process. Scientific claims are subject to peer review and...
Blah blah blah yes, yes, I know. Science keeps on correcting its mistakes.
So beautiful.
Thank God for empirical evidence and repeatable methods.

Not god, thank the millions of people who do the hard work to make your life possible.
...How does one go about verifying and correcting the claims made by creationists?

Well a good start might be to look at those claims.
Aren't scientists supposed to be open-minded?

If you make the claim, it is incumbent on you to rpovide the evidence to support it. So where is the fucking evidence? Why do you become mute when people ask you for the evidence?

...Based on your posts here, it is obvious to me that you don't understand what science is.

How can I love something I don't understand?
And where have I posted anything which misstates or contradicts the scientific method?

You have grossly mischaracterized the scientific process in this very thread. Read your earlier posts.


...If by science fundy, you mean someone who believes in and adheres to the scientific process, than yes, many of us here are science fundies.

So I am right after all.
Thanks.

Right about what?

...Shutting your eyes and ears and going lalala may drown out what others are saying, but is this really how you want to live your life?

I love learning new things.
And unlike the folks who want to censor God out of science, I believe in free speech.

All evidence to the contrary. You haven't learned shit in all the time you have been here. Your god beliefs are not based on fact and reason, and you cannot be dissuaded from your god beliefs using facts and reason. Your view of the world is anchored to the writings of a book written in the Bronze Age, and you are unwilling to consider any evidence that contradicts said beliefs. is this not a true statement?
 
I guess we'll never know because ID is banned in the science class.

Is evolutionary biology allowed in your church? :D
Come up with a falsifiable hypothesis of ID, and it will DEFINITELY be allowed in the science class. But you're not allowed to cry if/when it is falsified.
Even fucking Dembsi and Behe admit that they haven't been able to produce one. (Which hasn't stopped them from telling the opposite to their faithful book buyers.)
 
I guess we'll never know because ID is banned in the science class.

Is evolutionary biology allowed in your church? :D
Come up with a falsifiable hypothesis of ID, and it will DEFINITELY be allowed in the science class. But you're not allowed to cry if/when it is falsified.
Even fucking Dembsi and Behe admit that they haven't been able to produce one. (Which hasn't stopped them from telling the opposite to their faithful book buyers.)

English Literature isn't taught in Science classes; Nor is Music or Painting or Sports or History.

That's not because Music, Painting, Sports, History or Literature are being censored; Nor even because they are not valuable subjects that children should be taught. It's because they are not Science, and in Science classes, that's what gets taught.

Creationism belongs in Comparative Religion classes. And unlike Mathematics, English (or the appropriate local language(s)), and Science, Comparative Religion is not a particularly important foundation subject for other learning, so it tends to be a little selected elective class taken in high schools, rather than a mandatory class taken at all levels of education.
 
Science is a process that builds incrementally upon the works of others who have worked before in any field. Scientists use the best tools and observations available to them at any given time, and as the technology and the quality of our observations improves, so advances our state of knowledge. I will give you an example. Over 300 year ago, Newton published his understanding of how the universe works using a series of laws. Newton's laws defined a clockwork universe that works well for most of the conditions we deal with in our day to day lives, and is still used today by engineers and scientists for many tasks. About 100 years ago, Einstein published his Theory of General Relativity, which superseded Newton's laws and introduced a much better description of how the material universe and macroscopic objects behave. General Relativity works over a MUCH wider set of conditions, and can address the behavior of very massive objects moving at speeds close to the speed of light, which Newton's laws cannot do. This does not mean Newton was wrong, or his ideas should be discarded as irrelevant. The exact opposite is true. Newton advanced our state of knowledge enormously through his work, and later scientists have been able to build upon these ideas and advance them further.

...I'm constantly waiting for the irony of this to hit home among religious fundies.... nope. Never happens. They just don't grasp the topic well enough.

I'm a fundy. And I love science.
Sadly, a lot of atheists falsely think that science doesn't love me back.
And a lot of atheistic/scientistic academics goes berserk when you suggest that intelligent design should be an available menu option in the science classroom.
If the quest for truth is so important, why the strident censorship of competing ideas?

Why should intelligent design be considered a scientific theory? What predictions does it make and how these predictions be verified? You claim to love science but you appear to lack an understanding of what science is.

...They're constantly saying stuff that implies that they're suspicious about truth, but have faith in falsehoods... and don't get what they just said.

Nope. They aren't "suspicious about truth".
They are suspicious of falsehoods - those mistakes which science itself keeps correcting.

Science is a self-correcting process. Scientific claims are subject to peer review and correction. This is a GOOD thing. How does one go about verifying and correcting the claims made by creationists?

...Add to that the misunderstanding of what science is. As if it's a person. So any statement said by any scientist that's proven wrong proves all of science wrong.

Oh. You don't like generalizations?
...but you happily label Fundies and knock down strawmen who are "suspicious about truth".

Based on your posts here, it is obvious to me that you don't understand what science is.


...Ehe... no. It proves that science works. But you need to understand how science works to understand that. The fundies clearly don't.

Aren't you just another science fundy?

If by science fundy, you mean someone who believes in and adheres to the scientific process, than yes, many of us here are science fundies. We are open to facts and reason, and we can change our beliefs when new evidence is presented that contradicts previously held beliefs. As opposed to creationists who are unwilling to consider any new information and evidence that contradict their dogmatic beliefs. Shutting your eyes and ears and going lalala may drown out what others are saying, but is this really how you want to live your life?

So if, as say a hypothetical, if God himself (or herself as the case may be) came down out of heaven and bit you on the arse, you would give up evolution and science and convert to Christianity?

If Bantu, the Supreme Cosmic Toad, were to show up and bite you on your arse, would you be convinced that this universe was created from it's Divine Flatulence, as some people apparently believe?

If Biblegod has the power to create universes, then it would also have the power to show up and convince skeptics of it's existence and supernatural powers. The real question is, why does this god need to hide itself from it's creation? What is it scared of? What is the deal with all it's temper tantrums and genocidal behavior (if the Bible is to be believed)? Why did it need to clone itself in human form and have this clone brutally murdered just so it could allow itself to forgive some people of their transgressions? Why can't it bothered to show up? The most simple answer is that it cannot do any of these things because it is a story made up by our ancestors thousands of years ago; people who did not know any better, people who lived in a culture dominated by fear and superstition. While mankind has gained a much better understanding of the natural universe since the Biblegod story was created, some of us continue to cling to these fears and superstitions, which is really sad.
 
Its late here but I'll just say ;

If God having the power to pop in and out to prove He was real to skeptics then the bible would have those prophecies mention this to happen as a bible is supposed to say (apart from revelations on Christs return). You would then have the argument as you've stated above to validate this as the actual falsifiable contradiction in this regard.
 
Einstein blah blah blah Newton blah blah standing on the shoulders of giants blah blah blah.
Yeah I'm all choked up with emotion over the beauty of science.

...Why should intelligent design be considered a scientific theory? What predictions does it make and how these predictions be verified?

I guess we'll never know because ID is banned in the science class.

And art is banned from maths class. French is banned from Spanish class. What's your point? What is or isn't science isn't up to high school kids to decide on. It's up to the scientific community (ie community of scientists within that discipline, biology).

ID isn't banned from science. Scientists can study ID to their hearts content. There's no other branch of scientific study that receives such disproportionally high funding. If a scientists wants to get rich without having to do much of an effort, researching intelligent design is the way to go. It's already been extensively studied, and continues to be. There's quite a list now of mediocre scientists who fail to make an impact in mainstream science, because they're lazy, and switch to ID research and churn out garbage science no serious journal would touch. And then they travel around the creation science circuit and make big bucks holding lectures about their findings. The reason why ID isn't in science class is because it doesn't hold water scientifically. Or to put it in layman's terms, it's wrong.

If they have faulty predictions won't those predictions be exposed by the scientific method?

The main problem with ID is that it's fundamentally based on "I don't know how this works, but I know a guy who does. No you can't talk to him". So far ID has focused on proving that evolution can't have worked, ie "irreducible complexity". This has failed because ToE is so well researched now that each one of the ID-crowds examples of irreducible complexity has been studied and shown how ToE works. The most embracing was the bacterial flagellum. Nobody in the ID community had thought to ask the biologist who had spent his entire life studying this one thing. So when they used this in court to prove ID all the ToE-side had to do was to wheel out the expert who then explained it. And it all made perfect logical sense, as well as being supported by evidence.

But even if the ID crowd manage to find something science has yet to explain about ToE, it still isn't support for ID. So they're going about it all wrong. The ID-side needs to figure out an experiment they could run that would show ID support. Until they do, they've got nothing.

It's not as if there aren't tons of other contentious scientific claims floating around.

Sure. A theory in science is just a story that takes into account of all available evidence, without leaving any details out of it. There's no problem coming up with an alternative theory of life. But science is reductionist. It always seeks to create a simpler story by removing unnecessary parts. If adding stuff doesn't add explanatory power to the story, it's gone. You're free to add God to ToE if you like. You can have a theory where God directions mutations if you like. That's perfectly fine. But it won't be taught in science class. Because there's another theory that is simpler.

Thank God for empirical evidence and repeatable methods.

Lol. Or not thank God.

...How does one go about verifying and correcting the claims made by creationists?

Well a good start might be to look at those claims.
Aren't scientists supposed to be open-minded?

I don't think you understand just how much scientists has researched ID theories. All those claims have been extensively researched and they don't hold up. That's the only reason they've been rejected.

There is no other scientific funding organisation more well funded than the Templeton Foundation.

https://www.templeton.org/

Their singular goal is to find support for God and ID. The easiest scientific field to raise money for is the study of ID theories. And this isn't a bullshit foundation. They're funding real science. So there's nothing wrong with the studies. They just aren't showing any support for ID.

Scientists are incredibly open minded. I don't think you know many scientists. They tend to be the most open minded people out there. If you can't even get scientists to listen, your theory is in trouble.
 
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DrZoidberg,

In post 974 you have mistakenly attributed several quotes to me, which I believe were Lion IIRc's.
Thanks.
 
Scientists are incredibly open minded.
It often seems to me that 'open minded' is one of those 'code phrases.'

_I_ would tend to think that it means a willingness to listen to evidence offered by both sides, in an attempt to discover the best possible explanation.
But to many, it seems to mean 'not making up your mind until you agree with me.'
Like, if the defendant has an alibi, witnesses, photographs, no motive, a preponderance of evidence of his innocence, the prosecution can provide no evidence of his guilt, but challenges the jury to 'still be open minded' about the defendant's guilt.
At some point you just have to say, 'you had your chance, I WAS willing to listen, but you bring bupkes to the table. Imma go make my mind up, now. But, hey, if you DO find a smoking gun, let me know, 'kay, b-bye.'
 
Personally, I find the demand for proof useless.

Sometimes it is a trick question for one thing.

But, if we don't have an actual working definition of what would constitute proof, and be open and honest about it, then it really is useless to demand proof and people who demand proof are not really being open minded, which accomplishes nothing.

Let's take the subject of Bigfoot for example.

I personally find the subject of Bigfoot really interesting, but I just don't believe that it exists.

But I will believe they exist if an actual body, with a very thorough autopsy, is discovered.

Same thing with UFOs. I won't believe until one lands on the White House lawn.
 
Scientists are incredibly open minded.
It often seems to me that 'open minded' is one of those 'code phrases.'

_I_ would tend to think that it means a willingness to listen to evidence offered by both sides, in an attempt to discover the best possible explanation.
But to many, it seems to mean 'not making up your mind until you agree with me.'
Like, if the defendant has an alibi, witnesses, photographs, no motive, a preponderance of evidence of his innocence, the prosecution can provide no evidence of his guilt, but challenges the jury to 'still be open minded' about the defendant's guilt.
At some point you just have to say, 'you had your chance, I WAS willing to listen, but you bring bupkes to the table. Imma go make my mind up, now. But, hey, if you DO find a smoking gun, let me know, 'kay, b-bye.'

A tell tale sign is if the person making the argument and the recipient doesn't agree, to just repeat the argument. To me, having an opened mind is about trying to understand the other side and try to understand how they reached their conclusion. If they can't explain it better than "its just what I believe", then you've got a closed mind. An open mind is agile and inquisitive.

I've learned so much by assuming for a moment that the argumenter is correct and just running with it. Often they haven't explored their own ideas enough. A closed mind has often very little or no thought going on.
 
As soon as I hear the words "open mind" I always turn mine off from that point forward.

The term open minds is heavily misused by people who don't understand it.

They always want people to keep an open mind for themselves and never the other way.

Keeping an open mind is a two way street which means that there is the possibility that one could be wrong.
 
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