I have now met a real life creationist.

[Kharakov]

His friend, now quite upset, said, "You must think I'm a fool! Of course somebody made this! He's a genius, and I'd like to meet him!"

Newton set his book aside and slowly walked across the room to his friend. As they stood in front of the model, Newton explained to his friend, "This model is just a poor imitation of our wonderful universe. You know the laws and the precise order which govern our universe. I can't seem to convince you that this model, this toy, does not have a designer or a maker. However, you have said many times that the solar system, which this model represents, 'just happened.' Now tell me, is that the logical conclusion of a scientist?" http://www.wholesomewords.org/children/creation/whomadit.html
Whether or not the story is true, it makes a valid point.

Yeah. Why do electrons end up in quantized orbitals? Why are all of them made following the Universal Spacetime and Interaction Standardization Committee's specs?

 

[Keith&Co.]

Even if you could prove that Newton was a lunatic, the point is made.

The point is an argument from incredulity.
Hopefully Newton didn't really use such logical fallacies...

 

[Ford]

There is much to the design argument that you may not have seen.

I've been around awhile. Seen a lot of design arguments. None even remotely convincing. You have thus far not presented anything new.

Some facts are summarily dismissed simply because of their origin.

Facts - actual facts - have a tendency to stand on their own after sufficient scrutiny no matter the source.

Can you deal with the facts of an argument on its own merits without prejudice?

I must admit, whenever someone trots out the same old arguments in favor of design then gets defensive immediately when questioned, prejudice sneaks into my thinking.

 

[funinspace]

Not really interesting or a valid point, but it does sound a made up story Christians tell themselves.

I left room for that possibility, but the point is made.

Yeah, you found a cutesy story that makes a classic argument from incredulity. Color me un-pointed...

I'd be impressed if one could find a reputable source for its origin, as Isaac Newton is quite well documented.

I don't care about the source - the point is made.

Yeah, it is a funny thing, people liking fake stories...

Wow...look at how this was 'designed':


Anywho, you have enough people to play with...I'll let you talk in circles with them.

 

[wilson]

The universe is a big place with a lot of complexity. All the various parts of it need to work and interact somehow. That means that pointing to the fact that there is a way which they work and interact doesn't tell us anything about a conscious design or lack thereof behind things. Finding a design behind the solar system would involve the answer to questions such as "We need Mercury where it is because of X and the solar system wouldn't be working as well without it there" and "The asteroid belt needs to be where it is because of Y and the solar system wouldn't be working as well without it there". Design means that there is a purpose behind the various processes which make them superior to any other potential processes, not simply that there are things and processes which exist.

You ask these questions but would you suggest moving any one of those planets out of place to see what would happen or to "straighten it out?"
There is a way to test as to whether intention is involved in their design.
Dismantle it! Take it apart!
If something bad happens, then you would know for sure that it was intended to work to way you found it.

 

[blastula]

Bad things do happen all the time because of this alleged design (really unguided natural forces).

 

[funinspace]

Yeah, I said something about you having enough people chattering at you...

The universe is a big place with a lot of complexity. All the various parts of it need to work and interact somehow. That means that pointing to the fact that there is a way which they work and interact doesn't tell us anything about a conscious design or lack thereof behind things. Finding a design behind the solar system would involve the answer to questions such as "We need Mercury where it is because of X and the solar system wouldn't be working as well without it there" and "The asteroid belt needs to be where it is because of Y and the solar system wouldn't be working as well without it there". Design means that there is a purpose behind the various processes which make them superior to any other potential processes, not simply that there are things and processes which exist.

You ask these questions but would you suggest moving any one of those planets out of place to see what would happen or to "straighten it out?"
There is a way to test as to whether intention is involved in their design.
Dismantle it! Take it apart!
If something bad happens, then you would know for sure that it was intended to work to way you found it.

Yet, there are very approximately 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 differing star system 'designs' in the universe, all doing their own thing...of course until another massive object comes strolling thru and turns a solar system inside out. There are even galaxies playing their version of mortal combat with each other, which is pretty impressive on a cosmic scale.

 

[wilson]

I left room for that possibility, but the point is made.

Yeah, you found a cutesy story that makes a classic argument from incredulity. Color me un-pointed...

I'd be impressed if one could find a reputable source for its origin, as Isaac Newton is quite well documented.

I don't care about the source - the point is made.

Yeah, it is a funny thing, people liking fake stories...

It is not the story. That is just an illustration. It is the principle that the story contains.

Wow...look at how this was 'designed':

Anywho, you have enough people to play with...I'll let you talk in circles with them.

Nature itself is an elaborate arrangement. It works in only one direction. It cannot be reversed nor ignored.
The snowflake is made from water at certain pressures and temperatures and water is an arrangement.
ANY arrangement is evidence of design.

 

[wilson]

Yeah, I said something about you having enough people chattering at you...

You ask these questions but would you suggest moving any one of those planets out of place to see what would happen or to "straighten it out?"
There is a way to test as to whether intention is involved in their design.
Dismantle it! Take it apart!
If something bad happens, then you would know for sure that it was intended to work to way you found it.

Yet, there are very approximately 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 differing star system 'designs' in the universe, all doing their own thing...

Sorry - they're not "doing their own thing." They are in complete synch with all the others, completing the design.

of course until another massive object comes strolling thru and turns a solar system inside out.

That would have to be just a hope.

 

[blastula]

Define "design" in a testable way.

 

[wilson]

Bad things do happen all the time because of this alleged design (really unguided natural forces).

The forces in nature's arrangements are not unguided. They work as intended.
Yes - men have been dismantling the earth's ecological system and bad things are happening.

- - - Updated - - -

Define "design" in a testable way.

Look at the list.

 

[Elixir]

The forces in nature's arrangements are not unguided. They work as intended.

It must be great to be so intimate with the intentions of the Great Intender.

Do you distinguish "design" from "the appearance of design"?

 

[Keith&Co.]

Define "design" in a testable way.

Look at the list.

'Define' being another word Wilson doesn't understand...

 

[funinspace]

Yeah, you found a cutesy story that makes a classic argument from incredulity. Color me un-pointed...

I'd be impressed if one could find a reputable source for its origin, as Isaac Newton is quite well documented.

I don't care about the source - the point is made.

Yeah, it is a funny thing, people liking fake stories...

It is not the story. That is just an illustration. It is the principle that the story contains.

Wow...look at how this was 'designed':

Anywho, you have enough people to play with...I'll let you talk in circles with them.

Nature itself is an elaborate arrangement. It works in only one direction. It cannot be reversed nor ignored.
The snowflake is made from water at certain pressures and temperatures and water is an arrangement.
ANY arrangement is evidence of design.

One final point before I stop bothering... Nothing in what you have done with your word salad arrangements supports the notion that the universe/galaxy/star system/planet/snowflake was "arranged" in the sense you are trying to impose upon them. None of this shows evidence of your definition of "arrangement" or "design". The Big Bang doesn't need a designer nor an arranger. And not having all the answers (beyond 42), doesn't necessitate a designer or an arranger.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

The universe is a big place with a lot of complexity. All the various parts of it need to work and interact somehow. That means that pointing to the fact that there is a way which they work and interact doesn't tell us anything about a conscious design or lack thereof behind things. Finding a design behind the solar system would involve the answer to questions such as "We need Mercury where it is because of X and the solar system wouldn't be working as well without it there" and "The asteroid belt needs to be where it is because of Y and the solar system wouldn't be working as well without it there". Design means that there is a purpose behind the various processes which make them superior to any other potential processes, not simply that there are things and processes which exist.

You ask these questions but would you suggest moving any one of those planets out of place to see what would happen or to "straighten it out?"
There is a way to test as to whether intention is involved in their design.
Dismantle it! Take it apart!
If something bad happens, then you would know for sure that it was intended to work to way you found it.

Well ... no. Not at all. If the blind, uncaused and non-designed forces which govern the solar system placed Jupiter where it is, then moving Jupiter would mess up other things in the solar system. That just tells you that there is a process by which planets form and that process has an end result and changing the end result of one part of it can mess up the rest. You would still have a solar system, though, but it would be a solar system that looks different. That's perfectly fine from a non-designed point of view, since there are a near infinite possible layouts for a solar system and all of them are perfectly fine.

Processes and end results can come through design or non-design. The difference between the two is one of intent - ie there is a reason that Jupiter is 75 AU from the sun instead of 92 AU from it. You don't just have stuff happening, you have stuff happening because someone wanted it to. Taking the sand dunes from earlier in the thread as an example, looking at the regular sand dune can give you information about the processes which created it but looking at the Jesus sand dune gives you insight into the minds of the people who created it. Similarly, a designed solar system tells you that there is a reason that someone put Jupiter there instead of someone else, the same as there is a reason that someone put Jesus's head on top of his neck as opposed to sticking out of his leg.

 

[Elixir]

there is a reason that Jupiter is 75 AU from the sun instead of 92 AU from it.

Yep - "intelligent falling".

 

[bilby]

The Solar System is a perfect design, in which nothing bad happens.

Just ask the dinosaurs.

 

[blastula]

God designed the number of hairs on your head.

I wish he would pick a number and stick with it, because it keeps going down.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

God designed the number of hairs on your head.

I wish he would pick a number and stick with it, because it keeps going down.

And the constant redesign takes up a lot of his time. That's why he was too busy to step in and stop that bus crash which killed 30 people in Taiwan a couple of days ago.

Their deaths are, quite literally, on your head. Thanks a lot, asshole.

 

[Kharakov]

The Solar System is a perfect design, in which nothing bad happens.

Just ask the dinosaurs.

Intelligent Failing to cause humanity's ascension.