I think we can make the positive claim that nothing like 'gods' exist

[JC1432]

Philosophical gods are a key element of a rather pathetic argument that boils down to “OK, you can prove my God impossible; But you can’t prove this hypothetical entity that I invented for this discussion impossible, and I am declaring it to be a god, therefore gods are possible, therefore my God is possible after all”. They have no other purpose, nobody believes in them, and nobody thinks that they even exist.

This seems to be the fundamental issue of the thread.

I am still waiting for someone to come up with a definition of their god that isn't included in my list of 'gods which cannot exist'...

How about adding to your list, a God that is far beyond the comprehension of the mere mortal brain. The type of entity that doesn't neccessarily need to do things on the scale, scaling down to where humans can only try to observe from - a scale 'made easier just to fathom, conceptually.

You are proposing a god that is "outside the universe" and affects nothing inside the universe that can be detected by humans? In other words a god that is completely irrelevant to humanity?

Philosophical gods are a key element of a rather pathetic argument that boils down to “OK, you can prove my God impossible; But you can’t prove this hypothetical entity that I invented for this discussion impossible, and I am declaring it to be a god, therefore gods are possible, therefore my God is possible after all”. They have no other purpose, nobody believes in them, and nobody thinks that they even exist.

This seems to be the fundamental issue of the thread.

I am still waiting for someone to come up with a definition of their god that isn't included in my list of 'gods which cannot exist'...

How about adding to your list, a God that is far beyond the comprehension of the mere mortal brain. The type of entity that doesn't neccessarily need to do things on the scale, scaling down to where humans can only try to observe from - a scale 'made easier just to fathom, conceptually.

You are proposing a god that is "outside the universe" and affects nothing inside the universe that can be detected by humans? In other words a god that is completely irrelevant to humanity?

Humans can detect God in the Holy Spirit, that is timeless, immaterial, non spatial, not energy.

And does nothing detectable. In other words a completely irrelevant philosophical concept of a god.

Are you kidding? have you seen the drunks, murderers, thieves, adulterers turned into saints immediately through the Holy Spirit. over a million miracles happen each year, many medically verified (see Dr. Craig Keener's huge book on miracles). all of this is very well documented so that it is extremely probable to say that these things happen by chance or other than God

 

[JC1432]

Philosophical gods are a key element of a rather pathetic argument that boils down to “OK, you can prove my God impossible; But you can’t prove this hypothetical entity that I invented for this discussion impossible, and I am declaring it to be a god, therefore gods are possible, therefore my God is possible after all”. They have no other purpose, nobody believes in them, and nobody thinks that they even exist.

This seems to be the fundamental issue of the thread.

I am still waiting for someone to come up with a definition of their god that isn't included in my list of 'gods which cannot exist'...

How about adding to your list, a God that is far beyond the comprehension of the mere mortal brain. The type of entity that doesn't neccessarily need to do things on the scale, scaling down to where humans can only try to observe from - a scale 'made easier just to fathom, conceptually.

You are proposing a god that is "outside the universe" and affects nothing inside the universe that can be detected by humans? In other words a god that is completely irrelevant to humanity?

There should be those god type propositions brought to the table. The gods within the universe, who are limited to the physics and physicality, often suggested by atheists, that gods should be defined by, You might as well call these gods advanced aliens from distant civilisations then,

WTF does that even mean? A philosophical concept of some god that is not detectable and that does nothing is no different to humanity than no god. Such a god would be irrelevant.

 

[JC1432]

Philosophical gods are a key element of a rather pathetic argument that boils down to “OK, you can prove my God impossible; But you can’t prove this hypothetical entity that I invented for this discussion impossible, and I am declaring it to be a god, therefore gods are possible, therefore my God is possible after all”. They have no other purpose, nobody believes in them, and nobody thinks that they even exist.

This seems to be the fundamental issue of the thread.

I am still waiting for someone to come up with a definition of their god that isn't included in my list of 'gods which cannot exist'...

How about adding to your list, a God that is far beyond the comprehension of the mere mortal brain. The type of entity that doesn't neccessarily need to do things on the scale, scaling down to where humans can only try to observe from - a scale 'made easier just to fathom, conceptually.

You are proposing a god that is "outside the universe" and affects nothing inside the universe that can be detected by humans? In other words a god that is completely irrelevant to humanity?

There should be those god type propositions brought to the table. The gods within the universe, who are limited to the physics and physicality, often suggested by atheists, that gods should be defined by, You might as well call these gods advanced aliens from distant civilisations then,

WTF does that even mean? A philosophical concept of some god that is not detectable and that does nothing is no different to humanity than no god. Such a god would be irrelevant.

irrelevant? tell that to the drunks, murderers, thieves, adulterers., mentally ill..who became saints immediately through the Holy Spirt. also over 1 million miracles happen each year professed to be from God. many are verified by doctors. see Dr. Craig Keener's monster book on Miracles

 

[skepticalbip]

Philosophical gods are a key element of a rather pathetic argument that boils down to “OK, you can prove my God impossible; But you can’t prove this hypothetical entity that I invented for this discussion impossible, and I am declaring it to be a god, therefore gods are possible, therefore my God is possible after all”. They have no other purpose, nobody believes in them, and nobody thinks that they even exist.

This seems to be the fundamental issue of the thread.

I am still waiting for someone to come up with a definition of their god that isn't included in my list of 'gods which cannot exist'...

How about adding to your list, a God that is far beyond the comprehension of the mere mortal brain. The type of entity that doesn't neccessarily need to do things on the scale, scaling down to where humans can only try to observe from - a scale 'made easier just to fathom, conceptually.

You are proposing a god that is "outside the universe" and affects nothing inside the universe that can be detected by humans? In other words a god that is completely irrelevant to humanity?

There should be those god type propositions brought to the table. The gods within the universe, who are limited to the physics and physicality, often suggested by atheists, that gods should be defined by, You might as well call these gods advanced aliens from distant civilisations then,

WTF does that even mean? A philosophical concept of some god that is not detectable and that does nothing is no different to humanity than no god.

It means you're proffessing to be wise, (using a biblcal term, generally anyone with the notion). I find this quite remarkable. There are a lot of things that is said not to be detectable but they're believed to be there i.e,. dark matter etc.,.But you can somehow detect if there is such a thing as god guided as it seems to me, by a desired personal definition (a somewhat limited entity) that is fathomable.

Such things as dark matter are detected by indirect methods, their effect. It isn't yet understood exactly what it is thus the label 'dark matter'. And yes, there are things that we don't yet understand fully but we admit "we don't know... yet". Religious cling to the age old explanation for anything not understood of "god did it". As more is learned about the phenomena, the "god did it" is replaced with understanding.

You still haven't offered a description of what you believe your god is so it can be discussed. The continual mis-statement strawmen you offer of other's positions is not helpful.

 

[JC1432]

Philosophical gods are a key element of a rather pathetic argument that boils down to “OK, you can prove my God impossible; But you can’t prove this hypothetical entity that I invented for this discussion impossible, and I am declaring it to be a god, therefore gods are possible, therefore my God is possible after all”. They have no other purpose, nobody believes in them, and nobody thinks that they even exist.

This seems to be the fundamental issue of the thread.

I am still waiting for someone to come up with a definition of their god that isn't included in my list of 'gods which cannot exist'...

How about adding to your list, a God that is far beyond the comprehension of the mere mortal brain. The type of entity that doesn't neccessarily need to do things on the scale, scaling down to where humans can only try to observe from - a scale 'made easier just to fathom, conceptually.

You are proposing a god that is "outside the universe" and affects nothing inside the universe that can be detected by humans? In other words a god that is completely irrelevant to humanity?

There should be those god type propositions brought to the table. The gods within the universe, who are limited to the physics and physicality, often suggested by atheists, that gods should be defined by, You might as well call these gods advanced aliens from distant civilisations then,

WTF does that even mean? A philosophical concept of some god that is not detectable and that does nothing is no different to humanity than no god.

It means you're proffessing to be wise, (using a biblcal term, generally anyone with the notion). I find this quite remarkable. There are a lot of things that is said not to be detectable but they're believed to be there i.e,. dark matter etc.,.But you can somehow detect if there is such a thing as god guided as it seems to me, by a desired personal definition (a somewhat limited entity) that is fathomable.

Such things as dark matter are detected by indirect methods, their effect. It isn't yet understood exactly what it is thus the label 'dark matter'. And yes, there are things that we don't yet understand fully but we admit "we don't know... yet". Religious cling to the age old explanation for anything not understood of "god did it". As more is learned about the phenomena, the "god did it" is replaced with understanding.

You still haven't offered a description of what you believe your god is so it can be discussed. The continual mis-statement strawmen you offer of other's positions is not helpful.

 

[skepticalbip]

Philosophical gods are a key element of a rather pathetic argument that boils down to “OK, you can prove my God impossible; But you can’t prove this hypothetical entity that I invented for this discussion impossible, and I am declaring it to be a god, therefore gods are possible, therefore my God is possible after all”. They have no other purpose, nobody believes in them, and nobody thinks that they even exist.

This seems to be the fundamental issue of the thread.

I am still waiting for someone to come up with a definition of their god that isn't included in my list of 'gods which cannot exist'...

How about adding to your list, a God that is far beyond the comprehension of the mere mortal brain. The type of entity that doesn't neccessarily need to do things on the scale, scaling down to where humans can only try to observe from - a scale 'made easier just to fathom, conceptually.

You are proposing a god that is "outside the universe" and affects nothing inside the universe that can be detected by humans? In other words a god that is completely irrelevant to humanity?

Philosophical gods are a key element of a rather pathetic argument that boils down to “OK, you can prove my God impossible; But you can’t prove this hypothetical entity that I invented for this discussion impossible, and I am declaring it to be a god, therefore gods are possible, therefore my God is possible after all”. They have no other purpose, nobody believes in them, and nobody thinks that they even exist.

This seems to be the fundamental issue of the thread.

I am still waiting for someone to come up with a definition of their god that isn't included in my list of 'gods which cannot exist'...

How about adding to your list, a God that is far beyond the comprehension of the mere mortal brain. The type of entity that doesn't neccessarily need to do things on the scale, scaling down to where humans can only try to observe from - a scale 'made easier just to fathom, conceptually.

You are proposing a god that is "outside the universe" and affects nothing inside the universe that can be detected by humans? In other words a god that is completely irrelevant to humanity?

Humans can detect God in the Holy Spirit, that is timeless, immaterial, non spatial, not energy.

And does nothing detectable. In other words a completely irrelevant philosophical concept of a god.

Are you kidding? have you seen the drunks, murderers, thieves, adulterers turned into saints immediately through the Holy Spirit. over a million miracles happen each year, many medically verified (see Dr. Craig Keener's huge book on miracles). all of this is very well documented so that it is extremely probable to say that these things happen by chance or other than God

People change when caught or when they finally recognize the damage their bad behavior causes. This is a recognition of human nature, not 'proof of god'.

 

[JC1432]

Philosophical gods are a key element of a rather pathetic argument that boils down to “OK, you can prove my God impossible; But you can’t prove this hypothetical entity that I invented for this discussion impossible, and I am declaring it to be a god, therefore gods are possible, therefore my God is possible after all”. They have no other purpose, nobody believes in them, and nobody thinks that they even exist.

This seems to be the fundamental issue of the thread.

I am still waiting for someone to come up with a definition of their god that isn't included in my list of 'gods which cannot exist'...

How about adding to your list, a God that is far beyond the comprehension of the mere mortal brain. The type of entity that doesn't neccessarily need to do things on the scale, scaling down to where humans can only try to observe from - a scale 'made easier just to fathom, conceptually.

You are proposing a god that is "outside the universe" and affects nothing inside the universe that can be detected by humans? In other words a god that is completely irrelevant to humanity?

There should be those god type propositions brought to the table. The gods within the universe, who are limited to the physics and physicality, often suggested by atheists, that gods should be defined by, You might as well call these gods advanced aliens from distant civilisations then,

WTF does that even mean? A philosophical concept of some god that is not detectable and that does nothing is no different to humanity than no god.

It means you're proffessing to be wise, (using a biblcal term, generally anyone with the notion). I find this quite remarkable. There are a lot of things that is said not to be detectable but they're believed to be there i.e,. dark matter etc.,.But you can somehow detect if there is such a thing as god guided as it seems to me, by a desired personal definition (a somewhat limited entity) that is fathomable.

Such things as dark matter are detected by indirect methods, their effect. It isn't yet understood exactly what it is thus the label 'dark matter'. And yes, there are things that we don't yet understand fully but we admit "we don't know... yet". Religious cling to the age old explanation for anything not understood of "god did it". As more is learned about the phenomena, the "god did it" is replaced with understanding.

You still haven't offered a description of what you believe your god is so it can be discussed. The continual mis-statement strawmen you offer of other's positions is not helpful.

if you have listen to any pro God intellectual in the last bazillion years, it is not God of the Gaps - that is old school (centeries old) atheist rubbish. it is what we do know that is proclaimed by pro God scholars

All scientific discoveries of the last 50 years all point to a creator.

Big Bang, where all time, space, matter, and energy CREATED instantly out of nothing and not related to space, time, matter, energy. Chance of universe capable of sustaining life through randomness is 1 with 1240 zeros after it. (Dr. Donald Page).

Anthropic Principle: seemingly arbitrary and unrelated constants (well over 30 of them) in the physics of the universe, have precisely the exact values you would need if you to have life in the universe.

Cambrian Explosion, where advanced animal life suddenly appeared without any precursors – putting evolution into the grave.

Origin of lIfe

Intelligence in DNA design and structure of information (command, meaning, code, communication) and instructions. Only intelligent beings are known to CREATE information and instructions (like a software programmer

 

[JC1432]

Philosophical gods are a key element of a rather pathetic argument that boils down to “OK, you can prove my God impossible; But you can’t prove this hypothetical entity that I invented for this discussion impossible, and I am declaring it to be a god, therefore gods are possible, therefore my God is possible after all”. They have no other purpose, nobody believes in them, and nobody thinks that they even exist.

This seems to be the fundamental issue of the thread.

I am still waiting for someone to come up with a definition of their god that isn't included in my list of 'gods which cannot exist'...

How about adding to your list, a God that is far beyond the comprehension of the mere mortal brain. The type of entity that doesn't neccessarily need to do things on the scale, scaling down to where humans can only try to observe from - a scale 'made easier just to fathom, conceptually.

You are proposing a god that is "outside the universe" and affects nothing inside the universe that can be detected by humans? In other words a god that is completely irrelevant to humanity?

Philosophical gods are a key element of a rather pathetic argument that boils down to “OK, you can prove my God impossible; But you can’t prove this hypothetical entity that I invented for this discussion impossible, and I am declaring it to be a god, therefore gods are possible, therefore my God is possible after all”. They have no other purpose, nobody believes in them, and nobody thinks that they even exist.

This seems to be the fundamental issue of the thread.

I am still waiting for someone to come up with a definition of their god that isn't included in my list of 'gods which cannot exist'...

How about adding to your list, a God that is far beyond the comprehension of the mere mortal brain. The type of entity that doesn't neccessarily need to do things on the scale, scaling down to where humans can only try to observe from - a scale 'made easier just to fathom, conceptually.

You are proposing a god that is "outside the universe" and affects nothing inside the universe that can be detected by humans? In other words a god that is completely irrelevant to humanity?

Humans can detect God in the Holy Spirit, that is timeless, immaterial, non spatial, not energy.i'm s

And does nothing detectable. In other words a completely irrelevant philosophical concept of a god.

Are you kidding? have you seen the drunks, murderers, thieves, adulterers turned into saints immediately through the Holy Spirit. over a million miracles happen each year, many medically verified (see Dr. Craig Keener's huge book on miracles). all of this is very well documented so that it is extremely probable to say that these things happen by chance or other than God

People change when caught or when they finally recognize the damage their bad behavior causes. This is a recognition of human nature, not 'proof of god'.

i'm sorry for you not understanding that drunks, druggies, and murderers do not change overnight because they suddenly realize they did something wrong. drunks and druggies can't physiologically change instantly like that

 

[skepticalbip]

Philosophical gods are a key element of a rather pathetic argument that boils down to “OK, you can prove my God impossible; But you can’t prove this hypothetical entity that I invented for this discussion impossible, and I am declaring it to be a god, therefore gods are possible, therefore my God is possible after all”. They have no other purpose, nobody believes in them, and nobody thinks that they even exist.

This seems to be the fundamental issue of the thread.

I am still waiting for someone to come up with a definition of their god that isn't included in my list of 'gods which cannot exist'...

How about adding to your list, a God that is far beyond the comprehension of the mere mortal brain. The type of entity that doesn't neccessarily need to do things on the scale, scaling down to where humans can only try to observe from - a scale 'made easier just to fathom, conceptually.

You are proposing a god that is "outside the universe" and affects nothing inside the universe that can be detected by humans? In other words a god that is completely irrelevant to humanity?

There should be those god type propositions brought to the table. The gods within the universe, who are limited to the physics and physicality, often suggested by atheists, that gods should be defined by, You might as well call these gods advanced aliens from distant civilisations then,

WTF does that even mean? A philosophical concept of some god that is not detectable and that does nothing is no different to humanity than no god.

It means you're proffessing to be wise, (using a biblcal term, generally anyone with the notion). I find this quite remarkable. There are a lot of things that is said not to be detectable but they're believed to be there i.e,. dark matter etc.,.But you can somehow detect if there is such a thing as god guided as it seems to me, by a desired personal definition (a somewhat limited entity) that is fathomable.

Such things as dark matter are detected by indirect methods, their effect. It isn't yet understood exactly what it is thus the label 'dark matter'. And yes, there are things that we don't yet understand fully but we admit "we don't know... yet". Religious cling to the age old explanation for anything not understood of "god did it". As more is learned about the phenomena, the "god did it" is replaced with understanding.

You still haven't offered a description of what you believe your god is so it can be discussed. The continual mis-statement strawmen you offer of other's positions is not helpful.

if you have listen to any pro God intellectual in the last bazillion years, it is not God of the Gaps - that is old school (centeries old) atheist rubbish. it is what we do know that is proclaimed by pro God scholars

All scientific discoveries of the last 50 years all point to a creator.

Big Bang, where all time, space, matter, and energy CREATED instantly out of nothing and not related to space, time, matter, energy. Chance of universe capable of sustaining life through randomness is 1 with 1240 zeros after it. (Dr. Donald Page).

Anthropic Principle: seemingly arbitrary and unrelated constants (well over 30 of them) in the physics of the universe, have precisely the exact values you would need if you to have life in the universe.

Cambrian Explosion, where advanced animal life suddenly appeared without any precursors – putting evolution into the grave.

Origin of lIfe

Intelligence in DNA design and structure of information (command, meaning, code, communication) and instructions. Only intelligent beings are known to CREATE information and instructions (like a software programmer

You obviously are only repeating the claims made by Christian apologists. You should take the time to read "what science says" rather than echoing people that have no understanding of science. The things you are claiming 'science says' are not from the actual science.

 

[skepticalbip]

...

Philosophical gods are a key element of a rather pathetic argument that boils down to “OK, you can prove my God impossible; But you can’t prove this hypothetical entity that I invented for this discussion impossible, and I am declaring it to be a god, therefore gods are possible, therefore my God is possible after all”. They have no other purpose, nobody believes in them, and nobody thinks that they even exist.

This seems to be the fundamental issue of the thread.

I am still waiting for someone to come up with a definition of their god that isn't included in my list of 'gods which cannot exist'...

How about adding to your list, a God that is far beyond the comprehension of the mere mortal brain. The type of entity that doesn't neccessarily need to do things on the scale, scaling down to where humans can only try to observe from - a scale 'made easier just to fathom, conceptually.

You are proposing a god that is "outside the universe" and affects nothing inside the universe that can be detected by humans? In other words a god that is completely irrelevant to humanity?

Philosophical gods are a key element of a rather pathetic argument that boils down to “OK, you can prove my God impossible; But you can’t prove this hypothetical entity that I invented for this discussion impossible, and I am declaring it to be a god, therefore gods are possible, therefore my God is possible after all”. They have no other purpose, nobody believes in them, and nobody thinks that they even exist.

This seems to be the fundamental issue of the thread.

I am still waiting for someone to come up with a definition of their god that isn't included in my list of 'gods which cannot exist'...

How about adding to your list, a God that is far beyond the comprehension of the mere mortal brain. The type of entity that doesn't neccessarily need to do things on the scale, scaling down to where humans can only try to observe from - a scale 'made easier just to fathom, conceptually.

You are proposing a god that is "outside the universe" and affects nothing inside the universe that can be detected by humans? In other words a god that is completely irrelevant to humanity?

Humans can detect God in the Holy Spirit, that is timeless, immaterial, non spatial, not energy.i'm s

And does nothing detectable. In other words a completely irrelevant philosophical concept of a god.

Are you kidding? have you seen the drunks, murderers, thieves, adulterers turned into saints immediately through the Holy Spirit. over a million miracles happen each year, many medically verified (see Dr. Craig Keener's huge book on miracles). all of this is very well documented so that it is extremely probable to say that these things happen by chance or other than God

People change when caught or when they finally recognize the damage their bad behavior causes. This is a recognition of human nature, not 'proof of god'.

i'm sorry for you not understanding that drunks, druggies, and murderers do not change overnight because they suddenly realize they did something wrong. drunks and druggies can't physiologically change instantly like that

Show me hundreds of heroin addicts that woke up one morning without any desire for drugs and without any withdrawal symptoms because 'god removed them' and you may have something to argue about. Personally, I have never heard of a heroin addict that didn't go through a hell of a struggle and severe withdrawal symptoms when they decided to kick the habit because they recognized the harm it caused.

 

[bilby]

Philosophical gods are a key element of a rather pathetic argument that boils down to “OK, you can prove my God impossible; But you can’t prove this hypothetical entity that I invented for this discussion impossible, and I am declaring it to be a god, therefore gods are possible, therefore my God is possible after all”. They have no other purpose, nobody believes in them, and nobody thinks that they even exist.

This seems to be the fundamental issue of the thread.

I am still waiting for someone to come up with a definition of their god that isn't included in my list of 'gods which cannot exist'...

How about adding to your list, a God that is far beyond the comprehension of the mere mortal brain. The type of entity that doesn't neccessarily need to do things on the scale (a scaling down) where humans can only observe from - a scale 'made easier just to fathom, conceptually.

How would anyone ever come to know of such a God? By definition, they cannot - if you say that think such a God exists, then you are declaring that you don’t (and can’t) know anything about it, and are refuting your own position.

If such a God becomes in any way comprehensible, then it ceases to fit your description, and we can refute (or demonstrate) the existence of those attributes that are now comprehensible.

If it doesn’t, it is indistinguishable in every way from nonexistent.

 

[bilby]

Philosophical gods are a key element of a rather pathetic argument that boils down to “OK, you can prove my God impossible; But you can’t prove this hypothetical entity that I invented for this discussion impossible, and I am declaring it to be a god, therefore gods are possible, therefore my God is possible after all”. They have no other purpose, nobody believes in them, and nobody thinks that they even exist.

This seems to be the fundamental issue of the thread.

I am still waiting for someone to come up with a definition of their god that isn't included in my list of 'gods which cannot exist'...

How about adding to your list, a God that is far beyond the comprehension of the mere mortal brain. The type of entity that doesn't neccessarily need to do things on the scale, scaling down to where humans can only try to observe from - a scale 'made easier just to fathom, conceptually.

You are proposing a god that is "outside the universe" and affects nothing inside the universe that can be detected by humans? In other words a god that is completely irrelevant to humanity?

There should be those god type propositions brought to the table. The gods within the universe, who are limited to the physics and physicality, often suggested by atheists, that gods should be defined by, You might as well call these gods advanced aliens from distant civilisations then,

WTF does that even mean? A philosophical concept of some god that is not detectable and that does nothing is no different to humanity than no god.

It means you're proffessing to be wise, (using a biblcal term, generally anyone with the notion). I find this quite remarkable. There are a lot of things that is said not to be detectable but they're believed to be there i.e,. dark matter etc.,.But you can somehow detect if there is such a thing as god, guided, as it seems to me, by a desired personal definition (a somewhat limited entity) that is fathomable to the human mind.

The primary (maybe even sole) attribute of dark matter is that it is detectable (by its gravitational influence on galaxies).

“It is detectable”, is pretty much all we can say about it.

As an example of something undetectable, it’s perhaps the worst thing you could have chosen.

 

[abaddon]

Are you kidding? have you seen the drunks, murderers, thieves, adulterers turned into saints immediately through the Holy Spirit. over a million miracles happen each year, many medically verified (see Dr. Craig Keener's huge book on miracles). all of this is very well documented so that it is extremely probable to say that these things happen by chance or other than God

I'm aware that hallucinogens can cause "mystical" experiences that'll transform a psychologically ill person, sometimes in a single afternoon. There's been a resurgence of scientific research on this in the past decade or a little more, with astounding results. A few doses can potentially cure a treatment-resistant depression, a longstanding alcohol addiction, or the terror of death among terminally ill patients.

Is that the sort of thing you're talking about, except about altered states that are religiously induced? If so, then no big argument from me about that end of it.

IMV it's not the claim of a fast and radical transformation that's hard to credit. Rather, it's that you take people's testimony about WHY it happens too unquestioningly. People clothe their interior experiences in an immense variety of stories, which is very wonderful. But I don't know that they're right to project that symbology outward from headspace onto the outer world.

I'm an agnostic atheist with an interest in religions precisely for this reason. It's potentially transformative of the sense of self in truly astounding ways (for good and bad). IMV that's a big part of what religion's been about for many millennia now - a transformed sense of self.

The trouble is they'll "metaphysize" it -- by which I mean, they don't leave it as a phenomenology of their inner world, instead they think it's descriptive of an esoteric structure to the cosmos. And that's why their testimony about "spirits" from "the beyond" that are external to themselves isn't trustworthy. They're using mythology to explain the workings of nature, when mythology is, at best, lessons about inner transformation.

 

[JC1432]

...

Philosophical gods are a key element of a rather pathetic argument that boils down to “OK, you can prove my God impossible; But you can’t prove this hypothetical entity that I invented for this discussion impossible, and I am declaring it to be a god, therefore gods are possible, therefore my God is possible after all”. They have no other purpose, nobody believes in them, and nobody thinks that they even exist.

This seems to be the fundamental issue of the thread.

I am still waiting for someone to come up with a definition of their god that isn't included in my list of 'gods which cannot exist'...

How about adding to your list, a God that is far beyond the comprehension of the mere mortal brain. The type of entity that doesn't neccessarily need to do things on the scale, scaling down to where humans can only try to observe from - a scale 'made easier just to fathom, conceptually.

You are proposing a god that is "outside the universe" and affects nothing inside the universe that can be detected by humans? In other words a god that is completely irrelevant to humanity?

Philosophical gods are a key element of a rather pathetic argument that boils down to “OK, you can prove my God impossible; But you can’t prove this hypothetical entity that I invented for this discussion impossible, and I am declaring it to be a god, therefore gods are possible, therefore my God is possible after all”. They have no other purpose, nobody believes in them, and nobody thinks that they even exist.

This seems to be the fundamental issue of the thread.

I am still waiting for someone to come up with a definition of their god that isn't included in my list of 'gods which cannot exist'...

How about adding to your list, a God that is far beyond the comprehension of the mere mortal brain. The type of entity that doesn't neccessarily need to do things on the scale, scaling down to where humans can only try to observe from - a scale 'made easier just to fathom, conceptually.

You are proposing a god that is "outside the universe" and affects nothing inside the universe that can be detected by humans? In other words a god that is completely irrelevant to humanity?

Humans can detect God in the Holy Spirit, that is timeless, immaterial, non spatial, not energy.i'm s

And does nothing detectable. In other words a completely irrelevant philosophical concept of a god.

Are you kidding? have you seen the drunks, murderers, thieves, adulterers turned into saints immediately through the Holy Spirit. over a million miracles happen each year, many medically verified (see Dr. Craig Keener's huge book on miracles). all of this is very well documented so that it is extremely probable to say that these things happen by chance or other than God

People change when caught or when they finally recognize the damage their bad behavior causes. This is a recognition of human nature, not 'proof of god'.

i'm sorry for you not understanding that drunks, druggies, and murderers do not change overnight because they suddenly realize they did something wrong. drunks and druggies can't physiologically change instantly like that

Show me hundreds of heroin addicts that woke up one morning without any desire for drugs and without any withdrawal symptoms because 'god removed them' and you may have something to argue about. Personally, I have never heard of a heroin addict that didn't go through a hell of a struggle and severe withdrawal symptoms when they decided to kick the habit because they recognized the harm it caused.

a suggestion would be to maybe start reading a little outside your atheist bubble. Read Dr. Craig Keener's monster book Miracles. attested miractes. i am sorry you haven't heard of it but stories are all over the place. i wouldn't say this if not true.

 

[DBT]

Stories alone may not be enough to prove a proposition.

 

[JC1432]

Are you kidding? have you seen the drunks, murderers, thieves, adulterers turned into saints immediately through the Holy Spirit. over a million miracles happen each year, many medically verified (see Dr. Craig Keener's huge book on miracles). all of this is very well documented so that it is extremely probable to say that these things happen by chance or other than God

I'm aware that hallucinogens can cause "mystical" experiences that'll transform a psychologically ill person, sometimes in a single afternoon. There's been a resurgence of scientific research on this in the past decade or a little more, with astounding results. A few doses can potentially cure a treatment-resistant depression, a longstanding alcohol addiction, or the terror of death among terminally ill patients.

Is that the sort of thing you're talking about, except about altered states that are religiously induced? If so, then no big argument from me about that end of it.

IMV it's not the claim of a fast and radical transformation that's hard to credit. Rather, it's that you take people's testimony about WHY it happens too unquestioningly. People clothe their interior experiences in an immense variety of stories, which is very wonderful. But I don't know that they're right to project that symbology outward from headspace onto the outer world.

I'm an agnostic atheist with an interest in religions precisely for this reason. It's potentially transformative of the sense of self in truly astounding ways (for good and bad). IMV that's a big part of what religion's been about for many millennia now - a transformed sense of self.

The trouble is they'll "metaphysize" it -- by which I mean, they don't leave it as a phenomenology of their inner world, instead they think it's descriptive of an esoteric structure to the cosmos. And that's why their testimony about "spirits" from "the beyond" that are external to themselves isn't trustworthy. They're using mythology to explain the workings of nature, when mythology is, at best, lessons about inner transformation.

thank you for the very comprehensive reply. there is no such thing as religiously induced. that is a myth. also hallucinations can't cure people. in the miracles happening all over the world, it isn't the physiology doing it but the Holy Spirit in a miracle doing the healing. there is nothing about themselves that is internalized. miracles are called that, not for the reasons you mention, but for the supernatural intervention into the physical world.

 

[JC1432]

Are you kidding? have you seen the drunks, murderers, thieves, adulterers turned into saints immediately through the Holy Spirit. over a million miracles happen each year, many medically verified (see Dr. Craig Keener's huge book on miracles). all of this is very well documented so that it is extremely probable to say that these things happen by chance or other than God

I'm aware that hallucinogens can cause "mystical" experiences that'll transform a psychologically ill person, sometimes in a single afternoon. There's been a resurgence of scientific research on this in the past decade or a little more, with astounding results. A few doses can potentially cure a treatment-resistant depression, a longstanding alcohol addiction, or the terror of death among terminally ill patients.

Is that the sort of thing you're talking about, except about altered states that are religiously induced? If so, then no big argument from me about that end of it.

IMV it's not the claim of a fast and radical transformation that's hard to credit. Rather, it's that you take people's testimony about WHY it happens too unquestioningly. People clothe their interior experiences in an immense variety of stories, which is very wonderful. But I don't know that they're right to project that symbology outward from headspace onto the outer world.

I'm an agnostic atheist with an interest in religions precisely for this reason. It's potentially transformative of the sense of self in truly astounding ways (for good and bad). IMV that's a big part of what religion's been about for many millennia now - a transformed sense of self.

The trouble is they'll "metaphysize" it -- by which I mean, they don't leave it as a phenomenology of their inner world, instead they think it's descriptive of an esoteric structure to the cosmos. And that's why their testimony about "spirits" from "the beyond" that are external to themselves isn't trustworthy. They're using mythology to explain the workings of nature, when mythology is, at best, lessons about inner transformation.

thank you for the very comprehensive reply. there is no such thing as religiously induced. that is a myth. also hallucinations can't cure people. in the miracles happening all over the world, it isn't the physiology doing it but the Holy Spirit in a miracle doing the healing. there is nothing about themselves that is internalized. miracles are called that, not for the reasons you mention, but for the supernatural intervention into the physical world.

 

[JC1432]

Philosophical gods are a key element of a rather pathetic argument that boils down to “OK, you can prove my God impossible; But you can’t prove this hypothetical entity that I invented for this discussion impossible, and I am declaring it to be a god, therefore gods are possible, therefore my God is possible after all”. They have no other purpose, nobody believes in them, and nobody thinks that they even exist.

This seems to be the fundamental issue of the thread.

I am still waiting for someone to come up with a definition of their god that isn't included in my list of 'gods which cannot exist'...

How about adding to your list, a God that is far beyond the comprehension of the mere mortal brain. The type of entity that doesn't neccessarily need to do things on the scale (a scaling down) where humans can only observe from - a scale 'made easier just to fathom, conceptually.

How would anyone ever come to know of such a God? By definition, they cannot - if you say that think such a God exists, then you are declaring that you don’t (and can’t) know anything about it, and are refuting your own position.

If such a God becomes in any way comprehensible, then it ceases to fit your description, and we can refute (or demonstrate) the existence of those attributes that are now comprehensible.

If it doesn’t, it is indistinguishable in every way from nonexistent.

God comes to you when you seek Him. it is His intervention. He has promised you will find Him if you seek. not sure how i am refuting my position based on this. God can come to you in Spirit, and this is not contradictory to the description i gave you. do you refute that all matter was created in the big bang, thus the cause/creator of that is not matter, or immaterial, or super (above) natural?

 

[steve_bank]

In the late 19th century some thought science was over, everything there was to be known was known. Oops, along came QM and relativity.

Radio wavsa that can pass through walls? Never.

Somebody noticed a discrepancy between observation and the BB, oops it must due to uhhh...dark matter. Yea that's it dark matter.

Anybody given the history of science in its entirety think that we know everything there is to know regarding daily life?

Golly gee wiz, how would we know when we know everything? It is so confusing.

 

[JC1432]

Philosophical gods are a key element of a rather pathetic argument that boils down to “OK, you can prove my God impossible; But you can’t prove this hypothetical entity that I invented for this discussion impossible, and I am declaring it to be a god, therefore gods are possible, therefore my God is possible after all”. They have no other purpose, nobody believes in them, and nobody thinks that they even exist.

This seems to be the fundamental issue of the thread.

I am still waiting for someone to come up with a definition of their god that isn't included in my list of 'gods which cannot exist'...

How about adding to your list, a God that is far beyond the comprehension of the mere mortal brain. The type of entity that doesn't neccessarily need to do things on the scale, scaling down to where humans can only try to observe from - a scale 'made easier just to fathom, conceptually.

You are proposing a god that is "outside the universe" and affects nothing inside the universe that can be detected by humans? In other words a god that is completely irrelevant to humanity?

i hope you got my answer to this. i already answered this but don't see it here. many of the posts repeat themselves so i'm a little confused