Idiot dragged out of bar by her hair for not wearing mask

[GenesisNemesis]

So anyone who's judging the bouncer right now- how do you know they don't have family members/friends who are in the hospital because of Covid? How do you know their family members/friends haven't died of Covid? You really don't. Perhaps that could be motivating them to take such a drastic action. You don't know.

That doesn't impact my view on whether the behavior was acceptable.

Her fear and stress and trauma does not justify bad behavior any more than the Karen's experience or closely held beliefs justify her not wearing a mask.

The point is that this is a question of whether more than just the Karen is awful.

As I've said, there are plenty of situations where hair dragging is going to yield the best outcome.

As to whether it was here, possibly it was not the best option, given the availability of additional bouncers and backup in subdual.

(Shhh I was trying to set a trap for conservatives to start dehumanizing Covid victims). 'Cause that's what they do.

 

[WAB]

I retract my choke hold remarks. That was silly of me.

But I am still dead set against dragging someone by the hair. In fact I cannot conceive of any situation where I would resort to doing that. But if the rest of you can conceive of it, I guess we are just different people.

And you're right, Jarhyn, I am not a fighter. Never claimed to be. Quite the contrary. I despise violence, which means the initiation of violence. I am not a pacifist and I understand that force is necessary when in retaliation to the initiation of force.

I have been in a few fights. One when I was a kid, and somehow I wound up with my tooth in the other kid's head. All my other fights were with my older brother, and I lost all of 'em.

Again, the choke hold thing was I'll conceived. I of course would never do that to someone, and I don't even know how anyway. Nor do I want to know how.

 

[Jarhyn]

I retract my choke hold remarks. That was silly of me.

But I am still dead set against dragging someone by the hair. In fact I cannot conceive of any situation where I would resort to doing that. But if the rest of you can conceive of it, I guess we are just different people.

And you're right, Jarhyn, I am not a fighter. Never claimed to be. Quite the contrary. I despise violence, which means the initiation of violence. I am not a pacifist and I understand that force is necessary when in retaliation to the initiation of force.

I have been in a few fights. One when I was a kid, and somehow I wound up with my tooth in the other kid's head. All my other fights were with my older brother, and I lost all of 'em.

Again, the choke hold thing was I'll conceived. I of course would never do that to someone, and I don't even know how anyway. Nor do I want to know how.

Your argument from Incredulity is just that: mere Incredulity.

The point is that everyone who knows how to or who has any experience in removing someone from a space is in pretty tight agreement that hair dragging is pretty solid depending on the context.

Hair isn't alive and hair does grow back. You'll never live down the image of kicking and screaming like a petulant child as someone removed you from a public space in front of your peers, but she would already never live down the rest of the scene either.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

I have been in a few fights. One when I was a kid, and somehow I wound up with my tooth in the other kid's head. All my other fights were with my older brother, and I lost all of 'em.

Well, here's something you may find surprising about me. One time in middle school I got punched in the back because I took a ball from someone who was throwing it at my friend, and I threw it on the roof of one of the school buildings. That's when I turned around and he punched me in the back. After that there was a bit of a stand off, but eventually we backed away from each other. I decided not to fight back. I am actually generally a non-violent person you see, people are complex.

 

[TomC]

Dragging by the hair is the ultimate form of dehumanization, and would never be the best or only option to remove someone from a space. Never. Hence my absolutism here.

This is the thing I don't understand.

While I'm generally opposed to violence as anything but a last desperate resort, I don't see hairpulling as "the ultimate form of dehumanization.

Maybe because I grew up with sisters, where biting and hairpulling was a regular feature of their squabbles.

To me it's a relatively benign form of applying force. Far less risky than most of the alternatives. And while such behavior would be unconscionable under the overwhelming majority of circumstances, bar bouncers are employed specifically to do things that are ordinarily stupidly brutish. Because sometimes that's the only way to deal with belligerent drunks and those are all to common in bars.

So, your assessment that I would be unsafe around your family is puzzling. I'm one of the least violent people you'll ever meet.
Tom

 

[KeepTalking]

Dragging by the hair is the ultimate form of dehumanization, and would never be the best or only option to remove someone from a space. Never. Hence my absolutism here.

This is the thing I don't understand.

While I'm generally opposed to violence as anything but a last desperate resort, I don't see hairpulling as "the ultimate form of dehumanization.

Maybe because I grew up with sisters, where biting and hairpulling was a regular feature of their squabbles.

I have 3 sisters, and although they did not physically fight very often, there was at least one memorable hair pulling fight between two of them. We grew up in a tough neighborhood, however, and I was in more fights than I can count before I was a teenager. The first time I got in trouble at school, was in 3rd grade, for fighting on the school bus. Back then getting trouble at school meant getting swats with a paddle.

I also have over 20 years of martial arts experience. When I lived in Florida, a local bar drew some of their bouncers from my dojo, and my best friend was one of those bouncers. I helped that bar with their IT needs, which wasn't much, just had to fix their POS system a couple times, but I also worked the door for them once or twice. I just took the door charge, they did not even want me involved in ejecting patrons, I was only expected to secure the lock box if anything went down near the door. I was told by the bouncers that the only objective is to get the drunk out of the bar. Once they are outside, the police would likely deal with them, as there were usually police nearby waiting for drunk drivers. It was apparently much quicker and easier to get police involved that way, rather than calling 911 and having someone dispatched. I only recall one time when the police actually came into the bar to break up a big fight. The police shut the bar down for the rest of the night after that.

At least at the Atlantic Grill in Vero Beach, Florida in the mid-90s, calling the police was the last resort.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

I can think of a number of things way more dehumanizing than hair pulling, lol. Rape, murder, setting people on fire, eye gouging. I would also add Covid denial or school shooting denial to that list. There are lots of things.

 

[KeepTalking]

Maybe it has something to do with cartoon cavemen being depicted dragging women by their hair, and that then being associated with rape. It was a pretty regular cartoon depiction when I was a kid, not so much any more I don't think.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Dragging by the hair is the ultimate form of dehumanization, and would never be the best or only option to remove someone from a space. Never. Hence my absolutism here.

This is the thing I don't understand.

While I'm generally opposed to violence as anything but a last desperate resort, I don't see hairpulling as "the ultimate form of dehumanization.

Maybe because I grew up with sisters, where biting and hairpulling was a regular feature of their squabbles.

To me it's a relatively benign form of applying force. Far less risky than most of the alternatives. And while such behavior would be unconscionable under the overwhelming majority of circumstances, bar bouncers are employed specifically to do things that are ordinarily stupidly brutish. Because sometimes that's the only way to deal with belligerent drunks and those are all to common in bars.

So, your assessment that I would be unsafe around your family is puzzling. I'm one of the least violent people you'll ever meet.
Tom

I'm with you there. I had to duck a few flying purses and other objects that went through windows and broke lamps. We were a tough bunch. Chased my brothers with bricks and scissors, punched my sister's glasses off her face. Hey, we all grow up and we all wear masks when required.

 

[thebeave]

Dragging by the hair is the ultimate form of dehumanization, and would never be the best or only option to remove someone from a space. Never. Hence my absolutism here.

This is the thing I don't understand.

While I'm generally opposed to violence as anything but a last desperate resort, I don't see hairpulling as "the ultimate form of dehumanization.

Maybe because I grew up with sisters, where biting and hairpulling was a regular feature of their squabbles.

To me it's a relatively benign form of applying force. Far less risky than most of the alternatives. And while such behavior would be unconscionable under the overwhelming majority of circumstances, bar bouncers are employed specifically to do things that are ordinarily stupidly brutish. Because sometimes that's the only way to deal with belligerent drunks and those are all to common in bars.

So, your assessment that I would be unsafe around your family is puzzling. I'm one of the least violent people you'll ever meet.
Tom

I'm with you there. I had to duck a few flying purses and other objects that went through windows and broke lamps. We were a tough bunch. Chased my brothers with bricks and scissors, punched my sister's glasses off her face. Hey, we all grow up and we all wear masks when required.

Man, you all were pretty harsh. My brother and I had a lot of "altercations", but it never got bloody or really violent or caused property damage. Mostly, I did things like put fiberglass insulation remnants in his bed to make him super itchy, or (the best one), eating all his Halloween candy and filling up the wrappers with random stuff (e.g. replacing Peanut M&M's with pebbles, etc). I got grounded for that one.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I'm with you there. I had to duck a few flying purses and other objects that went through windows and broke lamps. We were a tough bunch. Chased my brothers with bricks and scissors, punched my sister's glasses off her face. Hey, we all grow up and we all wear masks when required.

Man, you all were pretty harsh. My brother and I had a lot of "altercations", but it never got bloody or really violent or caused property damage. Mostly, I did things like put fiberglass insulation remnants in his bed to make him super itchy, or (the best one), eating all his Halloween candy and filling up the wrappers with random stuff (e.g. replacing Peanut M&M's with pebbles, etc). I got grounded for that one.

Our violence was not as sophisticated but probably just as much fun. Could be that bouncer had an upbringing similar to mine.

 

[TomC]

Man, you all were pretty harsh.

No, you don't get it.

What we're talking about is kids. The OP is about grownups.

You must respond to the little ones in a completely different way than older people. Grownups, who haven't learned how to deal with grown-up situations, have a different problem than 5y/o people who don't get it.

Little kids get protection, but not much freedom. Grownups get freedom, but not much protection. That's a simplistic explanation of the human situation, but I think it's accurate.

Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Hilarious. If this had been a white cop treating a black junkie like this, oh my how different the narrative would be. Instead of excusing the the cop, cities would burn.

If that were really the case cities would be on fire more often. I mean judging by how many black people are incarcerated & have interactions with the police on a daily basis you'd think there'd be no time to put out the fire before another one is started. But yeah beyond the hyperbole, you're quite right. I can see some folks immediately accusing* the security personnel of wrongdoing out the gate if it was a black woman. The part that you miss is the messenger. Most posts the likes of which you've complained about here are in response to someone who has a track record of starting a thread or making comments that cast black (or generally brown to be more specific since some of the subjects were actually Hispanic) people in a negative light. If you and the other user would actually post something (at least once) showing a black person in a positive light you wouldn't receive the knee-jerk reactions yallz be getting.

Anyway, like Beau of The Fifth Column puts it; It's just a thought

* I use the word accusing because that's how you see it. What is really happening is they are presenting you with another point of view that can easily be just as correct** as yours.

*You're not correct very often

While it's an obvious overstatement he has a point--BLM wouldn't care about the details, they would automatically jump to the-police-are-guilty.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Pretentious Trumpies who refuse to wear masks are inevitably the same people who insist on lying and exaggeration. The chance that her version is truthful is close to zero.

It doesn’t matter much to me - I see a person being dragged by their hair. A situation that is causing her and everyone around her to scream and yell.
To say this brutality is necessary and is somehow in the service of reducing the spread of virus is bullshit. Taking her out more professionally would have accomplished anti-virus goals better.

It’s unnecessary brutality, and that is wrong, in my opinion..

She's being dragged by her hair and clothing. Besides, look at her behavior--she's trying to make herself hard to remove.

As for the behavior of the others around--anyone who is in a bar these days is at least half plague rat.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There is no justification for a person being dragged out of an establishment by the hair. Anyone who is trying to justify it is hysterical, and will try to justify any behavior, as long as the people on their 'side' are the asshats committing the behavior.

If she's told to leave & refuses to do so, should the bar be expected to allow her to stay? Should they have the right to forcibly remove her if she doesn't leave after being asked to do so? Should a business not have the right to enforce rules of behavior while on their property?

Yup, this is the situation. We have some on the left who are in effect saying that enough resistance should be rewarded by letting them have their way. (Note that prosecution over this sort of thing will basically never happen, it's throw them out or ignore them.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I was doorman/bouncer in college in Austin (anyone remember the BackRoom on Riverside or the Ritz on 6th St?). There were a handful of times that we had to carry people out but never had to drag out by the hair. What would actually happen quite often is you'd start to physically remove someone, they would go dead weight and we'd just let them fall and lay there on the dirty bar floor. They would be so embarrassed at that point that they would simply leave and never come back. That was like 20 years ago so the "rights" being infringed upon at the time was that the patrons were no longer allowed to smoke indoors in Austin.

I think dragging out by the hair is way too harsh when the two bouncers could have carried her out to the street and dropped her there. However, comparing this situation to cops beating/shooting people is also moronic.

I'm sure someone has pointed out that there's only one side to this story and the video in the OP doesn't show what happened to start it all off. [sarcasm] Has Derec found this woman's past convictions as proof that she's a thug and had it coming? [/sarcasm] I kid.

You're assuming there were two bouncers to carry her.

And normally letting them lie there would be an option, but this was a plague rat, still an issue lying there.

Obviously we don't know exactly what lead up to it but your description of how people reacted when you tried to evict them seems a likely precursor for what the video shows.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

To me violence or the threat of it is what keeps people from crossing over certain lines: we use reasoned discussion rather than fighting because fighting sucks for almost everyone.

The issue comes when someone abandons the forms of discourse which are to be accepted by someone who rejects belief and authority, when someone relies on rhetoric, confusion, ignorance, and other things that are not reasoned or reasonable. I will happily point to violence existing on the far side of that boundary because there is nothing useful on it other than to use the ignorant or the ill-equipped in the short term as batteries and capacitors of violence got their short term gain and long term loss in pure and externally detrimental service of self and using people is fucking awful.

And note that if the enforcers are not allowed to use the force necessary for enforcement they become meaningless. Again and again I see people propose backing off when a situation turns problematic--neglecting the fact that that means you are teaching them that making the situation problematic gets their way. That's a far more dangerous situation than simply dealing with it the first time.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm not.

I'm pointing out that sometimes violently belligerent drunks are also white female "Karens".

Tom

Tom, I have been impressed by your posts.

Would you, you personally, drag a woman across the floor by her hair, for any reason? I would not.

Now, let's say this woman was so out of hand, so belligerent, so violent, that physical force became necessary to hold and contain her. I would imagine that there were enough men in this place to muster sufficient force to restrain this woman until police arrived.

In other words, as I have said, and which is true: there could not have been any justification for dragging her out by her hair.

Any attempt to justify it is a rationalization. There is NO justification for such brutality. None. None at all.

Reality: The total harm done from your approach is likely much higher than what we saw in that video. You have a bunch of untrained people, some of whom are not sober, trying to restrain someone and injuries become likely. Deaths sometimes happen.

Now, if it's truly vital you do it anyway--but don't be surprised if the nutter on the airplane is taken off by the coroner rather than the police.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

A “bar hag” indeed ? Well she deserved everything she got and more I suppose ?

Hilarious.

I didn't say if she deserved anything or not. I don't go to bars like that for a reason. Shit happens and those people are probably accustomed to it.

What is so obvious is the dehumanizing of this woman. "bar hag", her name "Bliss" gets ridiculed, she seems the type and will be accustomed, "plague rat" etc. Any excuse.

I don't understand why she's being called a "bar hag", but "plague rat" is a common way to refer to those who refuse to wear masks.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No. Professionally speaking, her obligation was to neutralize the threat of the maskless drunk person. The "deadly weapon" was her spit. Neutralizing someone's mouth quite reasonably involves controlling the head. Hair is an obvious means to accomplish that.
Intentionally keeping the perp's face as close to the ground as possible while removing the threat to others, was perfectly reasonable, appropriate, and measured.

I hadn't even thought of that aspect of it. The hair grab might have simply been head control and not dragging.