If mass immigration is so great, then how about the countries that lose all their workforce to the wealthy nations?

[Bar-Jesus]

Links, or it didn't happen. Or maybe it's just a failure on your part to understand that "immigration" doesn't mean "mass immigration". Or maybe it's just a failure on your part to understand damn near anything.

just read the title Sparky

If mass immigration is so great, then how about the countries that lose all their workforce to the wealthy nations?

 

[Bar-Jesus]

Is it your contention that a mass migration from Poland is currently occurring? If so, please provide your evidence.

it's been happening since around 2000 - though many now are coming from other countries such as Bulgaria, Estonia etc...I'm not just singling out Poland here

- - - Updated - - -

Probably unemployed Polish people. Making a sandwich isn't actually a high-skilled job which requires more than a shift or two of training, so non-sandwich workers can be brought up to speed on it fairly quickly.

So the overall work rate of Poland goes down due to emigration, so how does this benefit Poland again?

 

[laughing dog]

all the mainstream left parties for a start, and all the far left lib types - a lot of mainstream Cons are very pro mass immigration too - so YES

Perhaps you can give links to those mainstream parties (and don't forget any of them, since you did say all) where they claim
1) mass migration is good for the receiving country, and
2) mass migration is good for the "donating" country.

Especially the 2nd claim, since that is the one you seem to focus on.

 

[SimpleDon]

Mass immigration - the holy grail right?

So, what about the countries that lose all their workers (ie; Poland) - who's gonna do the work there?

And if they suck them from Bulgaria, who's gonna do the work there?

etc etc....

Who thinks that mass migrations are the holy grail? The only people who support open borders are libertarians. If this is going to be another bash the libertarians thread I am more than willing to participate, they deserve to be mocked.

But I can tell you how it will be answered by our resident libertarians,

• open borders aren't possible as long as we have the welfare state
• we only need the welfare state because we don't have open borders
• open borders are only possible once we have a truly free market economy
• open borders are a precondition to having a truly free market economy
• how we achieve the truly free market isn't important, only that we do achieve it
• these are advanced libertarian concepts that you are unable to understand if you question the obvious truth of these statements
• don't feel bad, other so-called libertarians don't understand open borders either

 

[KeepTalking]

it's been happening since around 2000 - though many now are coming from other countries such as Bulgaria, Estonia etc...I'm not just singling out Poland here

OK, so it seems you are making the contention that a mass migration is occurring from Poland, as well as other Eastern European countries. We are making progress, and we can just concentrate on Poland for now.

I dispute that this mass migration from Poland is actually happening. Now would be the time for you to present your evidence to back up your assertion.

 

[hurtinbuckaroo]

Links, or it didn't happen. Or maybe it's just a failure on your part to understand that "immigration" doesn't mean "mass immigration". Or maybe it's just a failure on your part to understand damn near anything.

just read the title Sparky

If mass immigration is so great, then how about the countries that lose all their workforce to the wealthy nations?

Read the replies, DB. WHO is claiming that "mass immigration" is great? Provide links. WHO is claiming that "mass immigration" is even happening? Provide links. Or, just continue to pull things out of your ass.

 

[Archimedes]

. I know that brain drain can be a real problem but I'm just wondering if in this case an actual problem has actually happened because of the emigration of plumbers from Poland.

Brain drain, there you go - giving weight to BJ's point! Fair play

You see a drain of semi-skilled is also bad - leaves Poland in a worse state, but hey, the neo-libs of 'democratic' EUSSR don't give a donkey's testicle about that do they

But you're still refusing to answer the question. Has mass emigration caused an actual problem in Poland due to a lack of qualified plumbers there available to do necessary plumbing work?

Are you really this fucking obtuse?

 

[Bar-Jesus]

But you're still refusing to answer the question. Has mass emigration caused an actual problem in Poland due to a lack of qualified plumbers there available to do necessary plumbing work?

YES

 

[Tom Sawyer]

But you're still refusing to answer the question. Has mass emigration caused an actual problem in Poland due to a lack of qualified plumbers there available to do necessary plumbing work?

YES

So, what is that problem and do you have any links to anybody aside from yourself who is aware of this? Perhaps somebody who is Polish or has studied Poland.

 

[hurtinbuckaroo]

But you're still refusing to answer the question. Has mass emigration caused an actual problem in Poland due to a lack of qualified plumbers there available to do necessary plumbing work?

YES

NO.

 

[KeepTalking]

But you're still refusing to answer the question. Has mass emigration caused an actual problem in Poland due to a lack of qualified plumbers there available to do necessary plumbing work?

YES

Still waiting on evidence to back up that assertion...

 

[Archimedes]

But you're still refusing to answer the question. Has mass emigration caused an actual problem in Poland due to a lack of qualified plumbers there available to do necessary plumbing work?

YES

|So why don't you provide the fucking evidence of this problem with a lack of qualified plumbers in Poland? As it is it sounds like you just assume the problem exists because you think that emigration from Poland should logically cause it to exist, but you repeatedly refuse to provide evidence. It has been asked of you in plain English enough times in this thread to provide evidence of the problems caused by a supposed lack of qualified plumbers in Poland that it's now clear that you're trolling and/or making shit up or just too obtuse to understand simple questions.

Maybe there is a genuine problem. I'm interested to know if there is a problem and not just your opinion or insistence that there is a problem because your politics implies the existence of such a problem?

Where is your evidence that the problem you have been repeatedly asked for evidence of the existence of actually exists?

 

[Bar-Jesus]

you see, the decent plumbers leave Poland, and the low quality stay at home - hence a shortage of people who can do the job back in Poland!

so let's all quite whining about sources and evidence

Ever since hundreds of thousands of Poles abandoned the motherland following EU accession in 2004, the Polish diaspora has forged a reputation in the UK for being hardworking and reliable. This was largely because your average Polish plumber or builder took the revolutionary approach of turning up when he said he would, and doing whatever the work agreed within the allotted timeframe – rather than knocking a hole in the lounge wall, then disappearing for weeks to take up a more enticing offer.

But at home, Poles do not consider themselves hardworking. Some even suggest that communism has created a nation of lazy bones.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/apr/08/europe-news-poland

 

[bilby]

you see, the decent plumbers leave Poland, and the low quality stay at home - hence a shortage of people who can do the job back in Poland!

so let's all quite whining about sources and evidence

Ever since hundreds of thousands of Poles abandoned the motherland following EU accession in 2004, the Polish diaspora has forged a reputation in the UK for being hardworking and reliable. This was largely because your average Polish plumber or builder took the revolutionary approach of turning up when he said he would, and doing whatever the work agreed within the allotted timeframe – rather than knocking a hole in the lounge wall, then disappearing for weeks to take up a more enticing offer.

But at home, Poles do not consider themselves hardworking. Some even suggest that communism has created a nation of lazy bones.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/apr/08/europe-news-poland

That's lovely.

But it doesn't constitute evidence that there is now, or has ever been, a shortage of plumbers in Poland.

That appears to be an un-evidenced assumption on your part; So either you need to provide evidence for it, or you need to admit that it is purely an assumption.

This is really not somethig difficult we are asking for - if you know that there is a shortage of plumbers in Poland, then presumably you also know HOW you know that; and you can provide to us the evidence that convinced you.

If that evidence is "Well, it stands to reason, doesn't it?", then we can all have a good laugh at the inadequacy of your epistemological approach. If the evidence is documents and reports from Poland, lamenting the poor state of repair of the local plumbing due to the loss of skilled workers, then we can accept that evidence, and move on.

But if you expect anyone on a rationalist discussion board to just accept your assertion without any evidence at all, then you really haven't grasped what this place is all about.

 

[Archimedes]

you see, the decent plumbers leave Poland, and the low quality stay at home - hence a shortage of people who can do the job back in Poland!

But does this supposed shortage of plumbers actually exist or do you merely assume it exists because you think it's a logical outcome of something or other?

Are you factually aware of an actual problem with a lack of qualified plumbers in Poland or do you merely imagine the problem must exist given your assumptions?

so let's all quite whining about sources and evidence

You think it's whining to ask you for evidence of a claim that you have repeatedly made and have repeatedly refused to provide evidence for? Huh. The more you refuse to answer a simple question about evidence for a plumbing problem in Poland that has been repeatedly put to you the more it looks like you're just making shit up.

 

[Bar-Jesus]

I've just provided evidence from The Guardian so what are you two guys on about now?

anyway, get your laughing gear around this one:
Read,absorb and then apologise to the maestro!

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a7b5450e-36af-11db-89d6-0000779e2340.html#axzz3tjDP9Rn7

The consequences of migration is felt most deeply in the building sector, which has been undergoing a boom. The folkloric Polish plumbers, carpenters and roofers plying their trades in Dublin and London are causing a scarcity in Warsaw and Krakow.The shortage is so dire that many Polish employers are beginning to turn to Ukrainians to fill the jobs gap.

 

[KeepTalking]

I've just provided evidence from The Guardian so what are you two guys on about now?

anyway, get your laughing gear around this one:
Read,absorb and then apologise to the maestro!

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a7b5450e-36af-11db-89d6-0000779e2340.html#axzz3tjDP9Rn7

The consequences of migration is felt most deeply in the building sector, which has been undergoing a boom. The folkloric Polish plumbers, carpenters and roofers plying their trades in Dublin and London are causing a scarcity in Warsaw and Krakow.The shortage is so dire that many Polish employers are beginning to turn to Ukrainians to fill the jobs gap.

Congratulations!

After 8 pages you have finally managed to produce evidence that there is a shortage of plumbers in Poland. This could have been avoided by producing your evidence in the OP, or at any point in the intervening 7 pages. That is what is expected in this forum, and those who comport themselves in the manner you have done in this thread are only maestro's of douchebaggery. No one will be apologizing to you, and if anyone owes one, it is you.

So, now we can address the question of who is going to do the work of the missing plumbers. Apparently, as your article suggests, the answer is Ukrainians. Also, to some degree, new Polish plumbers will need to be trained. In the mean time, if there is so much plumbing work to be done in Poland, wages for plumbers there should rise as wages for plumbers in Dublin and London level off due to the glut of immigrant plumbers from Poland, and perhaps some of the "folkloric" Polish plumbers will return home as a result. If not, well, too fucking bad. Poland should have done a better job of retaining their highly skilled plumbers in the first place. What should not have happened, and what should never happen, is for the Polish plumbers to have been kept in Poland against their will.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Ya, the problem seems to be sorting itself out without any issue. It does, of course, lead to the additional problem of who will do the plumbing work in Ukraine, but the answer to that is that nobody will be doing it because the Russians stole all the toilets from that country and everyone there is just shitting in the woods right now.

 

[Archimedes]

I've just provided evidence from The Guardian so what are you two guys on about now?

Perhaps I'm missing something, but The Guardian link you provided says nothing about a shortage of plumbers in Poland? It's a vaguely worded article about hardworking vs. lazy Poles abroad and at home? http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/apr/08/europe-news-poland

Read,absorb and then apologise to the maestro!

What's to apologise for? You think you're owed a fucking apology for supply evidence for something you repeatedly refused to reply and had to be goaded into providing? Why should anyone apologise for asking for evidence of a previously unevidenced claim?

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a7b5450e-36af-11db-89d6-0000779e2340.html#axzz3tjDP9Rn7

The consequences of migration is felt most deeply in the building sector, which has been undergoing a boom. The folkloric Polish plumbers, carpenters and roofers plying their trades in Dublin and London are causing a scarcity in Warsaw and Krakow.The shortage is so dire that many Polish employers are beginning to turn to Ukrainians to fill the jobs gap.

Now, was that really so difficult that you had to be annoyed into providing evidence for?

So there's apparently an actual shortage of plumbers in Poland according to that link. I (or anyone else?) never claimed otherwise, merely asked for evidence of your repeated claims that you refused to provide evidence for.

I'm going to assume in future that getting you to provide evidence for your future claims is going to be like pulling teeth.

 

[Bar-Jesus]

Congratulations!

After 8 pages you have finally managed to produce evidence that there is a shortage of plumbers in Poland. This could have been avoided by producing your evidence in the OP, or at any point in the intervening 7 pages. That is what is expected in this forum, and those who comport themselves in the manner you have done in this thread are only maestro's of douchebaggery. No one will be apologizing to you, and if anyone owes one, it is you.

yada yada yada

Mr Self Righteous Keep's on Talking - to himself