If the baby can survive outside the womb is abortion "murder"?

[pood]

They should have been careful. It is a life right from conception and extinguishing it is murder (unless permissible in law).

You can’t murder a clump of cells, only an individual.

Cheat the law and you are liable for prosecution.
Indian is secular and democratic, religion does not interfere in its working.

Of course it doesn’t. Do you take us for idiots?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

"If the baby can survive outside the womb, is abortion 'murder'?

Yes. IMHO, it is murder irrespective of whether it can survive or not outside the womb.
I go with the conditions given by the government of India and one is, "It is OK in case of pregnancy due to rape".
There are other medical conditions as well, danger to mother's life, abnormality in child or failure of contraceptives.

If it's murder then rape is not a justification.

Abortion in case of rape/incest is 100% evidence that it's about controlling and punishing women, not about the fetus.

 

[Shadowy Man]

If it’s about the morality of killing babies, Why would baby killing be ok if conceived by rape?

It is not at all about morality, it is about practicality.
There is no single morality. That depends on the society (and religion).
Why should a woman be burdened by the responsibility of giving birth or raising a child of a person who raped her?

She shouldn’t. But some people think it is immoral to kill an innocent baby, who is not responsible for its own parents. I see you are not taking that approach, so ok.

 

[aupmanyav]

bilby:
"Then it's unacceptable even in the case of rape. The fetus didn't commit rape; It's insane to pass a death sentence against an innocent third party.
But do nothing, and you are liable for execution because your father was a criminal? What kind of shit is that?

I suspect you genuinely believe that. It's an excellent example of doublethink.
They don't have a right to be evil and irrational."

Aup:
His misfortune that his father committed the crime.
Why should the woman suffer twice, the rape and responsibilities of the child?
I do believe what I said and there is no double-think in that. Indian Supreme Court will iron out any interference.
We have a very strong and impartial court (not appointed by politicians as in US, correct me if I am wrong).
It is your view that they evil and irrational. They are doing their job to the best of their ability.
And their laws should be according to the Indian Constitution. Supreme Court decides if they are or if they are not.
A fine balance of power.

 

[aupmanyav]

Pood:
You can’t murder a clump of cells, only an individual.
Of course it doesn’t. Do you take us for idiots?

Aup.:
We take an embryo to be more than a clump of cells.
If you believe otherwise, then I will take you as one.

 

[aupmanyav]

If it's murder then rape is not a justification.
Abortion in case of rape/incest is 100% evidence that it's about controlling and punishing women, not about the fetus.

What about the woman?
The woman as per Indian law has the choice. Want to continue the pregnancy or terminate it?
Some women do not want a termination. That is OK with the law.

"Form C [Rule 9] Consent Form: This form is used to document consent of the woman seeking termination. Pregnancy of a woman who is above 18 years of age can be terminated with only her consent. If she is below 18 years of age or mentally ill, written consent of the guardian is required."

Abortion in India - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I think the Indian law on abortion is quite fair.

 

[aupmanyav]

She shouldn’t. But some people think it is immoral to kill an innocent baby, who is not responsible for its own parents. I see you are not taking that approach, so ok.

Thanks. Our law does not talk about various standards of morality. It is concerned only about practicality and humanity.

 

[Testy Calibrate]

It seems to me that the only people with the right to an opinion on the subject are women.

 

[bilby]

His misfortune that his father committed the crime.

So if it were discovered that your father was a rapist, you would be OK with going to the gallows?

Just your misfortune that your father committed the crime, right?

Or do you actually have a different standard for the "murder" of fetuses than you have for the "murder" of grown adults? Or just of yourself?

To be honest, you don't seem to have thought through your position or its consequences very well here.

 

[aupmanyav]

So if it were discovered that your father was a rapist, you would be OK with going to the gallows?

Would you want the woman to go through the irony of bearing the child of her rapist for nine months and caring for it for many years after birth disrupting her own plans for study or marriage? The rapist may be in jail or absconding. He would not lift a finger for the woman.
Basically, you want to sell the raped woman to the rapist for all her life.
It is her wish if she wants to terminate the pregnancy or keep it.

Even if the rapist accepts the woman as his wife, the crime remains. As far as I remember, Indian Courts do not accept this.
Once the case is filed, if the woman tries to withdraw the case, she becomes the culprit of registering a false case.

 

[bilby]

So if it were discovered that your father was a rapist, you would be OK with going to the gallows?

Would you want the woman to go through the irony of bearing the child of her rapist for nine months and caring for it for many years after birth disrupting her own plans for study or marriage? The rapist may be in jail or absconding. He would not lift a finger for the woman.
Basically, you want to sell the raped woman to the rapist for all her life.
It is her wish if she wants to terminate the pregnancy or keep it.

... as it is for any woman who is pregnant.

Again, you don't seem to have thought through your position or its consequences very well here.

If it's OK to abort a fetus because the father was a rapist, then it's OK to abort a fetus.

Non-rapist fathers also abscond, or wind up in jail. Or die. Or become abusive.

The dichotomy you propose, that a father either is a rapist, or is a devoted lifelong partner who welcomes children and is able and willing to provide for them until they reach adulthood, is absurd. And also irrelevant.

The bottom line is, as a wise man once said:

It is her wish if she wants to terminate the pregnancy or keep it.

 

[aupmanyav]

... as it is for any woman who is pregnant.

Then it becomes a game. Every year the woman becomes pregnant and goes for an abortion.
Indian law wants couples to be more responsible or bear the consequences of careless sex.

 

[Shadowy Man]

... as it is for any woman who is pregnant.

Then it becomes a game. Every year the woman becomes pregnant and goes for an abortion.
Indian law wants couples to be more responsible or bear the consequences of careless sex.

False dichotomy. You are saying that an unwanted pregnancy is either due to rape or careless sex. This is not true. If a woman has the right to abort a rape baby because of practicality then she has the right to abort any baby because of practicality.

You’re basically saying that abortion laws are about controlling women’s sexuality not any moral issue about murdering babies. I actually agree with that.

 

[Shadowy Man]

... as it is for any woman who is pregnant.

Then it becomes a game. Every year the woman becomes pregnant and goes for an abortion.
Indian law wants couples to be more responsible or bear the consequences of careless sex.

Also, if it’s about making sure that couples are responsible about careless sex, do the laws in India demand that the father stay with the woman if she gets pregnant and has the baby? Is he forced to pay child support if he doesn’t? Are both parents held to account or just the woman?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

... as it is for any woman who is pregnant.

Then it becomes a game. Every year the woman becomes pregnant and goes for an abortion.
Indian law wants couples to be more responsible or bear the consequences of careless sex.

What are the legal consequences for the male under that law?

 

[Shadowy Man]

... as it is for any woman who is pregnant.

Then it becomes a game. Every year the woman becomes pregnant and goes for an abortion.
Indian law wants couples to be more responsible or bear the consequences of careless sex.

Also, if it’s about making sure that couples are responsible about careless sex, do the laws in India demand that the father stay with the woman if she gets pregnant and has the baby? Is he forced to pay child support if he doesn’t? Are both parents held to account or just the woman?

If the woman dies during childbirth is the father held legally responsible for the baby?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

... as it is for any woman who is pregnant.

Then it becomes a game. Every year the woman becomes pregnant and goes for an abortion.
Indian law wants couples to be more responsible or bear the consequences of careless sex.

Also, if it’s about making sure that couples are responsible about careless sex, do the laws in India demand that the father stay with the woman if she gets pregnant and has the baby? Is he forced to pay child support if he doesn’t? Are both parents held to account or just the woman?

If the woman dies during childbirth is the father held legally responsible for the baby?

...or said death?

 

[aupmanyav]

Also, if it’s about making sure that couples are responsible about careless sex, do the laws in India demand that the father stay with the woman if she gets pregnant and has the baby? Is he forced to pay child support if he doesn’t? Are both parents held to account or just the woman?

In a normal marriage, not just the father, but the whole family (if they are living in a joint family) lives with the woman and supports the woman. Although if an adult women wants to raise a child of consensual sex without marriage, there is no problem about it. It is permitted and it is not necessary to mention the name of the father in legal papers. Yeah, the father has to support the woman and the child except in the case mentioned above where there was no such agreement. Now, even a Muslim woman in India is entitled for inheritance and to maintainance in case of divorce, which is not what Shariyat laws say.

 

[aupmanyav]

What are the legal consequences for the male under that law?

Termination of pregnancy other than Medical termination permitted by the law cannot be done. The punishment is up to three year in jail for the woman/husband which may be accompanied by a fine. The punishment to those who performed it is much severe, up to 10 years in jail.

I find there is a twist in the judgement. in 2022, the Supreme Court said: "A woman may become pregnant as a result of non-consensual sex with her husband". She also is eligible for termination of pregnancy.

All women, married or unmarried, have right to safe abortion under law, says SC

The Supreme Court on Thursday said the marital status of a woman can't be grounds to deprive her right to abort an unwanted pregnancy. The court said that all women are entitled to safe and legal abortion.

www.indiatoday.in

Abortion Laws in India - ClearIAS

The Medical Termination of Pregnancy Act and related Rules regarding abortion were clarified by the Supreme Court recently.

www.clearias.com

 

[aupmanyav]

If the woman dies during childbirth is the father held legally responsible for the baby?

Why would the husband be responsible? What wrong did he do? In many cases it is not easy to provide proper handling of childbirth in villages and there are some 600,000 villages in India. There could be a case that the man deliberately did not provide medical help to the woman, that would sure be punishable.