Illegal Immigration - Trump's Fearless Truth to PC Power

[Crazy Eddie]

Why would anyone expect that it is the best people who emigrate from a country?

That was MY first question. If you were a quality person with valuable skills and a good work ethic you'd probably be more successful making a career in your home country.

The only time high quality skilled workers begin fleeing their own country is when that country is FALLING APART, with a ruined top-heavy economy that offers them few opportunities and little consolation. There ARE countries in the world that fit that description; America, increasingly, seems to be one of them.

 

[Lumpenproletariat]

Trump's going to kick the butts of Mexico, China, et al. in order to create millions of new "jobs"!

I can't help but wonder who would clean all the rooms in his hotels/casinos if we sent all the undocumented workers home.

The hotel rooms, casinos and other low paid work would be filled as they always were when there were insufficient immigrants. Employers would be forced to pay a higher wage to attract people instead of cut price labour to undercut local workers into unemployment or accept peanuts. I've never heard of hotels where the guests had no cleaners.

It's obvious what would happen: prices to consumers/tourists would increase, hotel rooms more expensive. I.e., the economy generally would be made worse off, the general standard of living would decrease a notch. Net loss to the economy, just as would happen if we stopped replacing workers with lower-cost machines.

Just as there would be a loss to the economy if President Trump should crack down on China trade in order to create all the millions of "jobs" he's promising. Giving in to populist sentiment to crack down on cheap labor -- from foreign trade or immigrant workers -- only hurts the economy by making consumers worse off.

The proper function of these businesses is to serve consumers, not provide "jobs" to uncompetitive crybabies.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Some rich people commit crimes too.

The rich write the laws, that is the difference.

Maybe. Perhaps that's why Nick Leeson who wiped out Barings bank after his fraudulent dealings backfired to hundreds of millions of dollars received a 6 and a half year jail sentence in Singapore's Changi jail. He but released after three years due to Colon Cancer. Since then he made a miraculous recovery. He is now a successful after dinner speaker and writer. He still deals in the stock markets but as we are informed, with his own money.

Yet a would be robber who backed out of robbing a bank was jailed for 5 years and 6 lashes. He was in possession of fire arms

http://singapore.coconuts.co/2015/0...sentenced-jail-and-caning-possession-firearms

 

[HaRaAYaH]

No it's the battle between the racists and xenophobes (against) and the Chamber of Commerce (for). It would be easy to fix the illegal immigration problem. These people come for the money. They don't have jobs at home and they come to the US to gain employment.

That is such a simple statement - the situation is much more complex. Immigrants from Latin America (including Mexico) come to the USA for a better life. That may mean employment and/or a better income. It also may mean a higher probability of avoiding enslavement, rape and death.

I understand that, but they still have to come legally. Most are economic refugees trying for a better life. They come because we employ them. If we stopped, they would stop.

 

[whichphilosophy]

That is such a simple statement - the situation is much more complex. Immigrants from Latin America (including Mexico) come to the USA for a better life. That may mean employment and/or a better income. It also may mean a higher probability of avoiding enslavement, rape and death.

I understand that, but they still have to come legally. Most are economic refugees trying for a better life. They come because we employ them. If we stopped, they would stop.

If the USA is anything like the UK, Indian illegals come over to the UK and are exploited by their own to work for cut price jobs in restaurants, factories and even fruit pickers. So if legitimate businesses do not employ them, which is very likely due to a lack of paperwork, there are plenty of illegal employers.

 

[ronburgundy]

Hey Max,
Do you have a point beyond that Mexicans who risk their life and incarceration by illegally immigrating and leaving their families do so because they are economically desperate? Because that is the only actual fact relevant to anything you or Trump have said on the matter.

If you are trying to claim that there is something inherently flawed with these people other than their unfortunate circumstances, then the facts refute you.
Research shows that Mexican immigrants improve their economic situation over the first few generations significantly moreso than most other immigrant groups, including Asians. They are still worse off in absolute terms, but that is only because they start much worse off than other immigrants. This is despite the fact that their illegal status means they have only a tiny fraction of the opportunities that other immigrants have.

You ended your post with “Interesting”. Yes, it is interesting how people use pseudo-intellectual arguments to rationalize their racism.

 

[maxparrish]

Hey Max,
Do you have a point beyond that Mexicans who risk their life and incarceration by illegally immigrating and leaving their families do so because they are economically desperate? Because that is the only actual fact relevant to anything you or Trump have said on the matter.

Do you have a point in ignoring the copious statistics on illegals contribution to crime, as well as the subsequent 8 fold increase in high crime rates of Mexican/CA posterity?

If you are trying to claim that there is something inherently flawed with these people other than their unfortunate circumstances, then the facts refute you.
Research shows that Mexican immigrants improve their economic situation over the first few generations significantly moreso than most other immigrant groups, including Asians. They are still worse off in absolute terms, but that is only because they start much worse off than other immigrants. This is despite the fact that their illegal status means they have only a tiny fraction of the opportunities that other immigrants have.

No, I am arguing that they have harmed the well-being of native-born citizenry, and continue to do so. Telling us that this population makes more money while doing so is not only irrelevant, its daffy.

You ended your post with “Interesting”. Yes, it is interesting how people use pseudo-intellectual arguments to rationalize their racism.

LOL...dragging out that canard is not interesting.

 

[ronburgundy]

Do you have a point in ignoring the copious statistics on illegals contribution to crime, as well as the subsequent 8 fold increase in high crime rates of Mexican/CA posterity?

Their higher crime rates are a byproduct of the illegal status imposed upon them and of the poverty that drove them here interacting with they lack of social services provide to the poor whether immigrant or native. The fact that they are forced to become criminals in order to enter the country and forced to remain criminals in order to stay contributes to that poverty and directly to other criminal activity.

If you are trying to claim that there is something inherently flawed with these people other than their unfortunate circumstances, then the facts refute you.
Research shows that Mexican immigrants improve their economic situation over the first few generations significantly moreso than most other immigrant groups, including Asians. They are still worse off in absolute terms, but that is only because they start much worse off than other immigrants. This is despite the fact that their illegal status means they have only a tiny fraction of the opportunities that other immigrants have.

No, I am arguing that they have harmed the well-being of native-born citizenry, and continue to do so. Telling us that this population makes more money while doing so is not only irrelevant, its daffy.

They don't improve their situation via society-harming crime, but via earned income from hard work that is only "a crime" because the white natives that employ them choose to commit crimes by hiring them against the laws that those same white natives created, and usually criminally pay them below legal wages too. In addition, they do not "harm the well-being of the native-born citizenry", but rather provide those citizenry with well-being improving products and services that they otherwise could not afford. The ones harming the citizenry are the white native employers whose use threats about these immigrants illegal status to pay them so little that it suppresses wages generally for some native citizens. The empirical fact that they work harder at society-benefiting jobs than most natives and other immigrants is highly relevant and shows that any negatives to society is due not to the "types of Mexicans they send us", but due almost entirely to the illegal status we impose upon the mostly good, ethical, and hard working people from Mexico that come here to save their loved ones from destitution.

 

[laughing dog]

LOL...dragging out that canard is not interesting.

Most people would agree that using pseudo-intellectual arguments to rationalize their racism (or racism in general) is not interesting. But, your posts and your posting history is not consistent with that claim being a canard.

 

[ronburgundy]

Do you have a point in ignoring the copious statistics on illegals contribution to crime, as well as the subsequent 8 fold increase in high crime rates of Mexican/CA posterity?

BTW, I initially took your claim about crime rates at face value, pointing out how even if true, the fault lies with the illegal immigrant status the US imposes on them rather than the type of people that they are as Trumps and your claims imply. However, further inquiry suggest that even that claim of yours is baseless.
FBI stats show that less than 17% of all arrests in the US are of Hispanics and Latinos, whether illegal immigrant or otherwise. Yet, Hispanics and Latinos comprise more than 17 % of the US population. IOW, they are less likely to commit than non-Hispanics. Unless you want to claim that legal status Hispanics are notably more law abiding than white natives, it is not plausible that illegal status Mexicans are notably less law abiding, beyond the mere act of being in the US illegally.


Just in case you are getting your "facts" from something like the % of criminals among those that are deported, let me point to the obvious fact that the reason they are getting deported is because they were arrested for crimes. Thus, they represent the small and non-representative subset of illegal immigrants that commit crimes, are arrested for it, and thus deported.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

All responsibility? I would think that they would still be liable for accepting obviously fake documents.

Actually, all responsibility. There is no required training for spotting fake documents, and no photocopies are required. All the employer has to state is that they saw the ID and that it determine if it "reasonably appears to be genuine and to relate to the person presenting."

I could drive a truck through that loophole.

From the I-9: Employers may, but are not required to, photocopy the document(s) presented.

[guido accent]"And when I saw the ID, it looked genuine but I ain't no expert on out of state IDs."[/guido accent]

That's going too far. It's not reasonable to expect employers to be ID experts but neither should obvious fakes be acceptable. Photocopies sound like a good approach.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Actually, all responsibility. There is no required training for spotting fake documents, and no photocopies are required. All the employer has to state is that they saw the ID and that it determine if it "reasonably appears to be genuine and to relate to the person presenting."

I could drive a truck through that loophole.

From the I-9: Employers may, but are not required to, photocopy the document(s) presented.

[guido accent]"And when I saw the ID, it looked genuine but I ain't no expert on out of state IDs."[/guido accent]

That's going too far. It's not reasonable to expect employers to be ID experts but neither should obvious fakes be acceptable. Photocopies sound like a good approach.

The Bureau of Immigration could keep copies of all work permits/IDs of those permitted to work on an online data base. The Employer will then access this with the ID Number as a reference. No record no employment. The records would be accessible to immigration control when checking passports on entry.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That's going too far. It's not reasonable to expect employers to be ID experts but neither should obvious fakes be acceptable. Photocopies sound like a good approach.

The Bureau of Immigration could keep copies of all work permits/IDs of those permitted to work on an online data base. The Employer will then access this with the ID Number as a reference. No record no employment. The records would be accessible to immigration control when checking passports on entry.

And I would oppose this--rather than keeping illegals out this will mean forged documents + identity theft rather than just forged documents. We need to do a better job with identity theft before we go this route.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I understand that, but they still have to come legally. Most are economic refugees trying for a better life. They come because we employ them. If we stopped, they would stop.

If the USA is anything like the UK, Indian illegals come over to the UK and are exploited by their own to work for cut price jobs in restaurants, factories and even fruit pickers. So if legitimate businesses do not employ them, which is very likely due to a lack of paperwork, there are plenty of illegal employers.

It's a little different in this case since most of the illegal employers are actually highly influential agrobusinesses who have either perfected loophole-jumping to an exact science or are simply too rich for anyone to bother prosecuting them.

But your basic point is correct. They're coming because the jobs are being offered to them, implicitly or even explicitly. If American businesses stopped hiring them, they'd stop coming.

The Bureau of Immigration could keep copies of all work permits/IDs of those permitted to work on an online data base. The Employer will then access this with the ID Number as a reference. No record no employment. The records would be accessible to immigration control when checking passports on entry.

And I would oppose this--rather than keeping illegals out this will mean forged documents + identity theft rather than just forged documents. We need to do a better job with identity theft before we go this route.

We ALREADY HAVE a problem with identity theft. Actually, it seems like keeping track of work permits and visas in a centralized database would make it that much easier to catch the thieves.

 

[ksen]

That's going too far. It's not reasonable to expect employers to be ID experts but neither should obvious fakes be acceptable. Photocopies sound like a good approach.

The Bureau of Immigration could keep copies of all work permits/IDs of those permitted to work on an online data base. The Employer will then access this with the ID Number as a reference. No record no employment. The records would be accessible to immigration control when checking passports on entry.

that's socialist

 

[whichphilosophy]

If the USA is anything like the UK, Indian illegals come over to the UK and are exploited by their own to work for cut price jobs in restaurants, factories and even fruit pickers. So if legitimate businesses do not employ them, which is very likely due to a lack of paperwork, there are plenty of illegal employers.

It's a little different in this case since most of the illegal employers are actually highly influential agrobusinesses who have either perfected loophole-jumping to an exact science or are simply too rich for anyone to bother prosecuting them.

But your basic point is correct. They're coming because the jobs are being offered to them, implicitly or even explicitly. If American businesses stopped hiring them, they'd stop coming.

The Bureau of Immigration could keep copies of all work permits/IDs of those permitted to work on an online data base. The Employer will then access this with the ID Number as a reference. No record no employment. The records would be accessible to immigration control when checking passports on entry.

And I would oppose this--rather than keeping illegals out this will mean forged documents + identity theft rather than just forged documents. We need to do a better job with identity theft before we go this route.

We ALREADY HAVE a problem with identity theft. Actually, it seems like keeping track of work permits and visas in a centralized database would make it that much easier to catch the thieves.

A centralised system where records are easy to check would generally be more secure. It would be harder to use another persons passport unless used by a person with identical looks.

 

[whichphilosophy]

The Bureau of Immigration could keep copies of all work permits/IDs of those permitted to work on an online data base. The Employer will then access this with the ID Number as a reference. No record no employment. The records would be accessible to immigration control when checking passports on entry.

that's socialist

Checking ID doesn't equate with socialist.

 

[ksen]

that's socialist

Checking ID doesn't equate with socialist.

wanna bet?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

that's socialist

Checking ID doesn't equate with socialist.

It is if Obama does it.

 

[atrib]

That's going too far. It's not reasonable to expect employers to be ID experts but neither should obvious fakes be acceptable. Photocopies sound like a good approach.

The Bureau of Immigration could keep copies of all work permits/IDs of those permitted to work on an online data base. The Employer will then access this with the ID Number as a reference. No record no employment. The records would be accessible to immigration control when checking passports on entry.

They already do. The system is called eVerify.

http://www.uscis.gov/e-verify