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Immigration, Rule Of Law, And Obstruction of Justice

In other words, the local police who refuse to aid ICE with deportations are the ones who are following the law.
A law that enables illegals staying in the US and makes their deportation very difficult makes the mockery of the immigration system and the very idea of having a country.

We need to get our collective head out of our collective ass and fix these laws. Only immigration that is tolerated should be legal immigration.

I would push for resources put to the immigration system so that legal immigration is more of an option. If it takes years to process an application, people are going to skirt the process. Make it efficient. I would also admit far more immigrants than the USA now is. Legal immigrants benefit society tremendously.

But I agree with you that you need to enforce legal/illegal immigration. If people can just show up and instantly have rights to stay, that cuts the foundation from the legal immigration process.

I agree with Trump that you should have a big efficient and clearly defined wall (except figurative and not literal) with a big and efficient doorway (application and approval process) to go through.
 
Well, I'm very open to the possibility that I'm completely wrong. But it's been my experience that conservatives don't have evidence for their assertions. So, I'm very suspicious. But please prove me wrong. You're saying that evidence that authorities let violent offenders go free is Jose Inez Garcia Zarate's shooting of Kate Steinle. Good deal. We're making progress. Now, just to soothe my suspicious mind, could you tell us the specific violent offense that Jose committed in one of the five offenses?

I do not know his rap sheets in detail, but I know he was a felon. Don't you think a felon who entered US illegally five times should have been deported and not released?
Instead, San Francisco released him. Because they actively flaunt US immigration laws and aid and abet illegal immigration by protecting illegals that should be deported.
 
I would push for resources put to the immigration system so that legal immigration is more of an option. I would also admit far more immigrants than the USA now is.
US already accepts about a million legal immigrants each year. That seems enough to me. You think there should be more?

I agree with Trump except figuratively rather than literally, that you should have a big efficient and clearly defined wall, with a big and efficient doorway to go through.

Technology and sensors should play a big role. But some physical barrier to slow them down so border patrol can pick them up is also needed.
All of it is moot though if an illegal can just say "asylum" when apprehended by border patrol and be certain that he can't be deported for years no matter how bogus the claim is.
 
Well, I'm very open to the possibility that I'm completely wrong. But it's been my experience that conservatives don't have evidence for their assertions. So, I'm very suspicious. But please prove me wrong. You're saying that evidence that authorities let violent offenders go free is Jose Inez Garcia Zarate's shooting of Kate Steinle. Good deal. We're making progress. Now, just to soothe my suspicious mind, could you tell us the specific violent offense that Jose committed in one of the five offenses?

I do not know his rap sheets in detail, but I know he was a felon. Don't you think a felon who entered US illegally five times should have been deported and not released?
Instead, San Francisco released him. Because they actively flaunt US immigration laws and aid and abet illegal immigration by protecting illegals that should be deported.

Dang it! I'm so hopeful here to be proven wrong. Do you not have google? Can't you google his record? I want to be proved wrong. The assertion here is that dems or the left favor allowing violent immigrant's to go free. I asked for evidence. You said that Jose was a "violent felon". Can you not back up your assertion by telling us what his violent offense is?
 
I would push for resources put to the immigration system so that legal immigration is more of an option. I would also admit far more immigrants than the USA now is.
US already accepts about a million legal immigrants each year. That seems enough to me. You think there should be more?

Yes. Both on compassionite grounds and on dispassionate economic grounds.

Technology and sensors should play a big role. But some physical barrier to slow them down so border patrol can pick them up is also needed.

It seems like a cartoonish waste of money to me. You won't be catching many with a wall, especially a wall that doesn't span the whole border and is actually a small fence, and especially when everybody will know where it is. Sensors make more sense.

All of it is moot though if an illegal can just say "asylum" when apprehended by border patrol and be certain that he can't be deported for years no matter how bogus the claim is.

But isn't that "not being deported for years" part because your system is so slow? Focus on making it more efficient and most importantly, transparent. People should know what chance they have to get in before they even show up. It could mean less of a line.
 
Trump is being attacked for obstruction of justice and rightly so. Democrats in congress are comparing that Trump has no regard for rule of law, obviously so.

What about constriction of the apprising of illegal immigrants who have had due process in court under the law who are helped by refusing to aid in apprehension? Where is the congressional democratic outrage on rule of law? The deportaions are based on law passed by congress.

Rule of law is what it says. If trump is gaily of obstruction, then so is Ca and sanctuary cities. So is law enforcement that refuse to assist feds. Is this not so?

All someone south of the border has to do is watch the Spanish South American CNN and think it is a safe bet to go illegally to the USA. The laws are not enforced.

This is a tough question, especially since those who are generally against states opposing the federal government are also the ones who are in this case supporting the states against the fed when it comes to sanctuary states.

Ironically:
A: Once a racist uses an position, it is therefore always tainted by racism and anyone who ever uses it must be racist
B: Racists once used states rights, therefore states rights and separation of powers is a racist position
C: Sanctuary states are states rights and separation of powers
Therefore:
D: Anyone advocating for a sanctuary state must be a racist.

Meanwhile, right after California declared itself to be a sanctuary state, several cities in Orange county declared that they would follow federal law. California had a court case against the federal government saying they had the right to override federal law, and another court case against those cities saying the cities had no right to override state law.

Okay, that bit of showing that mainstream parties are inconsistent and hypocritical out of the way, time to give your question a more serious answer. Pointing out mainstream hypocrisy is a bit like shooting fish in a barrel filled with nothing but fish.

It is true that the immigration law that Trump is trying to enforce is law that is already passed. His illegality is the means by which he intends to enforce currently existing law, given that the same congress that passed that law refuses to fund enforcement of that law. Congress controls the purse. It is interesting to me, because if they really did oppose the current law as written, they should actually try to come up with some other law to replace current law as written. It seems from my outside point of view that they want the current law but unenforced.
 
The general point is always what sets the west apart from history and oter areas of the world is ryule of law versu chos and mob rule. Stability.

Many of hated that Trump got elected, but he IS the president legally like it or not.

Pelosi is hypocritical to on one hand attack Trump for not acknowledging rule of law as in the IRS refusing to respond to a black letter law request for Trump's returns, then pressure Trump to ignore illegal immigrants who had their day in court, due process, and were ordered to leave the country.

When we selectively ignore law for ideology and personal reasons then it is over. Once major precedents are set for ignoring rule of law then the future becomes chaos.

The counter to chaos is rule of law. We accept legal judgments regardless if we disagree and move on. If you do not like a law lobby to change it. It is the cornerstone of modern western civilization.

Our rule of law is not perfect, but when we toss it aside on major issues there will be future consequences.
 
The general point is always what sets the west apart from history and oter areas of the world is ryule of law versu chos and mob rule. Stability.

Many of hated that Trump got elected, but he IS the president legally like it or not.

Pelosi is hypocritical to on one hand attack Trump for not acknowledging rule of law as in the IRS refusing to respond to a black letter law request for Trump's returns, then pressure Trump to ignore illegal immigrants who had their day in court, due process, and were ordered to leave the country.

When we selectively ignore law for ideology and personal reasons then it is over. Once major precedents are set for ignoring rule of law then the future becomes chaos.

The counter to chaos is rule of law. We accept legal judgments regardless if we disagree and move on. If you do not like a law lobby to change it. It is the cornerstone of modern western civilization.

Our rule of law is not perfect, but when we toss it aside on major issues there will be future consequences.

Unless it's powerful right wing authoritarian morons breaking laws. They can be as selective as they please, and you and your ilk cannot be relied upon to question them.
 
The general point is always what sets the west apart from history and oter areas of the world is ryule of law versu chos and mob rule. Stability.

Many of hated that Trump got elected, but he IS the president legally like it or not.

Pelosi is hypocritical to on one hand attack Trump for not acknowledging rule of law as in the IRS refusing to respond to a black letter law request for Trump's returns, then pressure Trump to ignore illegal immigrants who had their day in court, due process, and were ordered to leave the country.

When we selectively ignore law for ideology and personal reasons then it is over. Once major precedents are set for ignoring rule of law then the future becomes chaos.

The counter to chaos is rule of law. We accept legal judgments regardless if we disagree and move on. If you do not like a law lobby to change it. It is the cornerstone of modern western civilization.

Our rule of law is not perfect, but when we toss it aside on major issues there will be future consequences.

Unless it's powerful right wing authoritarian morons breaking laws. They can be as selective as they please, and you and your ilk cannot be relied upon to question them.

You represent the problem, the serious left right divide. if all can not agree on rule of law then we potentially descend into third world politics. factionalism and violence. populist authorterians taking power.

We let obviously guilty criminals go free based on legal technicalities, rule of law.

It is in the news that cards are being distributed in communities telling people law enforcement can not enter a house without a warrant with the individuals name on it, and that they have the right to be silent. Rule of law when it suits your purpose.
 
Well, I'm very open to the possibility that I'm completely wrong. But it's been my experience that conservatives don't have evidence for their assertions. So, I'm very suspicious. But please prove me wrong. You're saying that evidence that authorities let violent offenders go free is Jose Inez Garcia Zarate's shooting of Kate Steinle. Good deal. We're making progress. Now, just to soothe my suspicious mind, could you tell us the specific violent offense that Jose committed in one of the five offenses?

I do not know his rap sheets in detail, but I know he was a felon. Don't you think a felon who entered US illegally five times should have been deported and not released?
Instead, San Francisco released him. Because they actively flaunt US immigration laws and aid and abet illegal immigration by protecting illegals that should be deported.

Dang it! I'm so hopeful here to be proven wrong. Do you not have google? Can't you google his record? I want to be proved wrong. The assertion here is that dems or the left favor allowing violent immigrant's to go free. I asked for evidence. You said that Jose was a "violent felon". Can you not back up your assertion by telling us what his violent offense is?

All I can find out about his record is that he had an old marijuana charge and was acquitted of the murder of Steinle.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/01/05/576123068/immigrant-acquitted-of-san-francisco-killing-sentenced-on-lesser-gun-charge
 
It is in the news that cards are being distributed in communities telling people law enforcement can not enter a house without a warrant with the individuals name on it, and that they have the right to be silent. Rule of law when it suits your purpose.

Is that incorrect there? If correct, what's wrong with distributing the cards?
 
The general point is always what sets the west apart from history and oter areas of the world is ryule of law versu chos and mob rule. Stability.

Many of hated that Trump got elected, but he IS the president legally like it or not.

Pelosi is hypocritical to on one hand attack Trump for not acknowledging rule of law as in the IRS refusing to respond to a black letter law request for Trump's returns, then pressure Trump to ignore illegal immigrants who had their day in court, due process, and were ordered to leave the country.

When we selectively ignore law for ideology and personal reasons then it is over. Once major precedents are set for ignoring rule of law then the future becomes chaos.

The counter to chaos is rule of law. We accept legal judgments regardless if we disagree and move on. If you do not like a law lobby to change it. It is the cornerstone of modern western civilization.

Our rule of law is not perfect, but when we toss it aside on major issues there will be future consequences.

The DPRK has one of the most stable societies in the world - almost nothing changes there. And they have amongst the strongest enforcement of the rule of law of any nation.

I therefore have to conclude that your thesis is a steaming pile of horseshit.

Stability and the rule of law are, like freedom and the ability to act without government interference, elements of society that are both desirable AND dangerous. They must be balanced (probably on a case by case basis) for a society to be a pleasant place to live. Too much 'rule of law' is demonstrably at least as bad as too little.
 
Dang it! I'm so hopeful here to be proven wrong. Do you not have google? Can't you google his record? I want to be proved wrong. The assertion here is that dems or the left favor allowing violent immigrant's to go free. I asked for evidence. You said that Jose was a "violent felon". Can you not back up your assertion by telling us what his violent offense is?

All I can find out about his record is that he had an old marijuana charge and was acquitted of the murder of Steinle.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/01/05/576123068/immigrant-acquitted-of-san-francisco-killing-sentenced-on-lesser-gun-charge

Sorry to all. I was being a smart ass in this thread. But it makes me mad that people assume that Mexicans are all evil doers and bad hombres. I'll answer my own questions. The local police are extremely busy and understaffed. They are trying to protect their local communities. They are not required to help the federal government go after undocumented people. Secondly, some worry that going after undocumented people will cause citizens to stop cooperating with the local police. Local police understand that they cannot keep a community safe without the cooperation of the locals.
 
Trump is being attacked for obstruction of justice and rightly so. Democrats in congress are comparing that Trump has no regard for rule of law, obviously so.

What about constriction of the apprising of illegal immigrants who have had due process in court under the law who are helped by refusing to aid in apprehension? Where is the congressional democratic outrage on rule of law? The deportaions are based on law passed by congress.
And illegal immigrants are getting deported. In fact, more were deported under Obama than under W... or possibly any other President. The trouble with Trump is he appears blind to context. He wants to deport statistics, not violent criminals.
 
I would push for resources put to the immigration system so that legal immigration is more of an option. If it takes years to process an application, people are going to skirt the process. Make it efficient. I would also admit far more immigrants than the USA now is. Legal immigrants benefit society tremendously.

While I do agree we need to process stuff in a timely manner that's not going to change the situation--these are people with path to legal immigration.
 
I would push for resources put to the immigration system so that legal immigration is more of an option. If it takes years to process an application, people are going to skirt the process. Make it efficient. I would also admit far more immigrants than the USA now is. Legal immigrants benefit society tremendously.

While I do agree we need to process stuff in a timely manner that's not going to change the situation--these are people with path to legal immigration.

And yet they are massively beneficial to your nation's economy.

So either you need to start providing them with a path to lawfully enter the US for certain classes of work; Or allow them to continue to do so unlawfully; Or you need to find some other low-cost way of picking fruit.

Or you could fuck over the agricultural and general labouring sector of your economy just to spite the poor brown people - but that's going to hurt a lot of wealthy and influential Americans.

Rule of law can be a very bad thing - particularly when the law is at odds with the reality of what is best for the country.
 
You would have to have a heart of stone not to feel for these poor hard working "immigrants";

Washington's new sanctuary law is among the strongest in the nation, barring local police from assisting federal immigration enforcement officers in any way.
In signing the law, Democratic Governor Jay Inslee said, 'We will not be complicit in the Trump administration's depraved efforts to break up hard-working immigrant and refugee families.'

In February, Fidel Lopez, 52, pleaded guilty to raping his fiancee's Lhasa Apso mix in Portland, Oregon. While he was being held in the Multnomah County Jail, ICE officials interviewed him and determined that he was an illegally present Mexican citizen.

Mexican man is accused of killing wife after Portland jail ignored ICE detainer and released him

Honduran man 'kills and dismembers his cousin' after Washington cops released him without notifying ICE

Convicted rapist 'returns to victimize same wheelchair-bound woman' after Seattle officials release him in defiance of ICE detainer

DailyMail
 
I would push for resources put to the immigration system so that legal immigration is more of an option. If it takes years to process an application, people are going to skirt the process. Make it efficient. I would also admit far more immigrants than the USA now is. Legal immigrants benefit society tremendously.

While I do agree we need to process stuff in a timely manner that's not going to change the situation--these are people with path to legal immigration.

And yet they are massively beneficial to your nation's economy.

So either you need to start providing them with a path to lawfully enter the US for certain classes of work; Or allow them to continue to do so unlawfully; Or you need to find some other low-cost way of picking fruit.

Or you could fuck over the agricultural and general labouring sector of your economy just to spite the poor brown people - but that's going to hurt a lot of wealthy and influential Americans.

Rule of law can be a very bad thing - particularly when the law is at odds with the reality of what is best for the country.

Yeah, they are helping us pave paradise and put up more parking lots.
 
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