Immigration Solution Discussion

[Ford]

There is no one solution. That's the thinking that's gotten us to where we are, and most of the solutions proposed only address one thing: the fact that there are people crossing the border illegally. Walls and "get tough on the border" don't address the why of the problem.

Why do they come here? Well, a lot of them (from places like Honduras and El Salvador, for example) are fleeing danger in their home country. Gangs that have more power than the police, or in some cases ARE the police. These people would be more accurately described as refugees rather than "illegal immigrants." Walls should not be built to keep them out. If they want to come here and start a new and better life, we should assist them when they arrive. We did that for people fleeing Castro's Cuba. "What's that? You arrived here on a leaky boat? Congratulations, you get to live in Miami! What? You crossed the Rio Grande? Go back to where you came from!" Need a little consistency here, folks.

As for the migrant workers, why do they come here? Because we pay them to come here. When we catch them, we send 'em back, but we don't do anything about the massive amount of money that's being offered to them, or the people paying that money to the workers. Here in Arizona we had an infamous sheriff who would conduct very public raids on businesses that were known to hire undocumented workers. He'd have a photo op with a bunch of migrants sitting on the sidewalk in zip ties. You know who he never, ever arrested? The employers. Hell, we even had an "employer sanctions" provision in the infamous "papers please" law. IIRC, they only ever prosecuted one company.

So yes, there has to be consequences for companies that knowingly employ undocumented workers, and the "gosh we just didn't know" defense has to be dealt with. They know. We also need a guest worker program so that all these people coming here to work can be legally paired with employers who need the help, but also want to play by the rules. And so that we don't have a permanent underclass of migrants, the people who participate should be given a path to citizenship.

"But that's not fair to the people who come here legally and wait forever to become citizens!" Gosh, you're right. That system needs to be reformed as well. We have essentially two immigration systems in this country. One where the process is long and onerous, and one where we're more than happy to take you in and exploit your labor, so long as you don't get caught. If you do, we kick you out and hire someone else under the table.

Finally, we have to stop demonizing people who come here either fleeing chaos or looking for work. For a certain segment of our population, they only see "Mexicans" sneaking across the border to take the best jobs away from hard-working Americans. The ones who come for work aren't "taking" anything. We're giving them the jobs you won't do. Enjoy your inexpensive lettuce. The ones who come here as refugees aren't "taking" anything either. They just want to live.

p.s. we really need to end the "war on drugs." Like the labor thing, this is an issue of supply and demand. Those cartels in Mexico? They exist because north of the border is a huge, lucrative market for their products, banks that are more than happy to launder their money, and we spend billions keeping that supply coming in.

 

[bleubird]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_American_crisis

Reap(pay back)for what we sowed.

PS:Where is Oliver North?

Dayum!

Then there's that.
Boy, you're old.

That or sharp and rememberful. Ollie North was a Republican operative who helped screw over Central American people, in the service of the USA. He sold guns and drugs. He was so well protected by the Reagan/Bush administration that he later ran for a Senate seat.

Tom

Define old.
Search United Fruit and the banana war.

And Smedly Butler.

 

[Derec]

* the "problem" is largely comprised of people legally trying to apply for asylum.

This is the biggest lie of this crisis. >95% of these mass migrants are economic migrants using the outdated asylum law to get into US.
Then they can wait years while their bogus claims wind their way through courts, but even when their claims are rejected, they are very unlikely to be deported, especially if they make a few "achor babies" and/or they move to a sanctuary city or state that actively oppose ICE efforts to deport illegals.

* I doubt that Mexico would allow the US to "ship" busloads of homeless people into their Country (the homeless people would have to be outfitted with passports, bermuda shorts, floral shirts and cameras to look like tourists).

Can we just call them "asylum seekers"? Works for the Central Americans ...

 

[Derec]

Why should Mexico be forced to accept immigrants from other countries (Latin America?)?

Why should US? Note that these illegals are crossing Mexico to reach US.

 

[Harry Bosch]

There is no one solution. That's the thinking that's gotten us to where we are, and most of the solutions proposed only address one thing: the fact that there are people crossing the border illegally. Walls and "get tough on the border" don't address the why of the problem.

Why do they come here? Well, a lot of them (from places like Honduras and El Salvador, for example) are fleeing danger in their home country. Gangs that have more power than the police, or in some cases ARE the police. These people would be more accurately described as refugees rather than "illegal immigrants." Walls should not be built to keep them out. If they want to come here and start a new and better life, we should assist them when they arrive. We did that for people fleeing Castro's Cuba. "What's that? You arrived here on a leaky boat? Congratulations, you get to live in Miami! What? You crossed the Rio Grande? Go back to where you came from!" Need a little consistency here, folks.

As for the migrant workers, why do they come here? Because we pay them to come here. When we catch them, we send 'em back, but we don't do anything about the massive amount of money that's being offered to them, or the people paying that money to the workers. Here in Arizona we had an infamous sheriff who would conduct very public raids on businesses that were known to hire undocumented workers. He'd have a photo op with a bunch of migrants sitting on the sidewalk in zip ties. You know who he never, ever arrested? The employers. Hell, we even had an "employer sanctions" provision in the infamous "papers please" law. IIRC, they only ever prosecuted one company.

So yes, there has to be consequences for companies that knowingly employ undocumented workers, and the "gosh we just didn't know" defense has to be dealt with. They know. We also need a guest worker program so that all these people coming here to work can be legally paired with employers who need the help, but also want to play by the rules. And so that we don't have a permanent underclass of migrants, the people who participate should be given a path to citizenship.

"But that's not fair to the people who come here legally and wait forever to become citizens!" Gosh, you're right. That system needs to be reformed as well. We have essentially two immigration systems in this country. One where the process is long and onerous, and one where we're more than happy to take you in and exploit your labor, so long as you don't get caught. If you do, we kick you out and hire someone else under the table.

Finally, we have to stop demonizing people who come here either fleeing chaos or looking for work. For a certain segment of our population, they only see "Mexicans" sneaking across the border to take the best jobs away from hard-working Americans. The ones who come for work aren't "taking" anything. We're giving them the jobs you won't do. Enjoy your inexpensive lettuce. The ones who come here as refugees aren't "taking" anything either. They just want to live.

p.s. we really need to end the "war on drugs." Like the labor thing, this is an issue of supply and demand. Those cartels in Mexico? They exist because north of the border is a huge, lucrative market for their products, banks that are more than happy to launder their money, and we spend billions keeping that supply coming in.

That's a great post. Although I can tell you as a former banker, that banks do not like to launder their money. The penalties are a 100 times worth the value or benefit that they get. They take great lengths to avoid the laundering (the regulations are miserable). But outside of that, you're spot on.

However, I'd also like to see a Marshall plan for Latin America. We would receive great benefits in the US from having more consumers for our products and less instability.

 

[ZiprHead]

* the "problem" is largely comprised of people legally trying to apply for asylum.

This is the biggest lie of this crisis. >95% of these mass migrants are economic migrants using the outdated asylum law to get into US.

Isn't that how you got in?

 

[steve_bank]

Paraphrasing the pundits.

The main problem is that the immigration laws as they were not written to accommodate the situations south of the border. They meed to ne rewritten to be more precise on who gets in. Currently anyone who claims any kind of fear gets a hearing. I am not dismissing the conditions people are in, but our immigration system is being gamed.

I listened to someone who apricates in a yearly poll of North Africa and the Mid East. Except for a few wealthy oil states, about 50% of younger people want to go somewhere else. That would be Europe and North America.

Someone can correct me if I am wrong, I believe Canadian immigration is needs based. Assimilation and language assistance is provided. People get in generally based on what the economy needs.

The lottery based immigration intend to bring in people to the USA from areas that would not normally get in does little for the economy. A major problem at the southern border is perception. It is unimaginable that Biden on TV said uncompiled minors would not be turned away. Does anyone not think that will increase the numbers?

Immigration can not be resolved until the border is secured.

The problem is not new and goes back at least to the 1930s. In the early 70s I knew someone from the Dominican Republic who got in a stud dent visa for a seminary. He left school and got a job.Then there is chain migration. It is reported that unaccompied minors arrive with the phone number of a relative on a wrist band. If they get someone to take them they are in.

Despite Trump's immigration rants including chain migration, his in-laws got in.

My vote is needs based immigration and an end to chain migration.

 

[barbos]

Invade Central America.

We've already tried that.
Why do you think their countries are in such a shambles? These immigrants are just blowback.

I know, that's why you need to invade and fix previous invasion. Your fault.

 

[Ford]

There is no one solution. That's the thinking that's gotten us to where we are, and most of the solutions proposed only address one thing: the fact that there are people crossing the border illegally. Walls and "get tough on the border" don't address the why of the problem.

Why do they come here? Well, a lot of them (from places like Honduras and El Salvador, for example) are fleeing danger in their home country. Gangs that have more power than the police, or in some cases ARE the police. These people would be more accurately described as refugees rather than "illegal immigrants." Walls should not be built to keep them out. If they want to come here and start a new and better life, we should assist them when they arrive. We did that for people fleeing Castro's Cuba. "What's that? You arrived here on a leaky boat? Congratulations, you get to live in Miami! What? You crossed the Rio Grande? Go back to where you came from!" Need a little consistency here, folks.

As for the migrant workers, why do they come here? Because we pay them to come here. When we catch them, we send 'em back, but we don't do anything about the massive amount of money that's being offered to them, or the people paying that money to the workers. Here in Arizona we had an infamous sheriff who would conduct very public raids on businesses that were known to hire undocumented workers. He'd have a photo op with a bunch of migrants sitting on the sidewalk in zip ties. You know who he never, ever arrested? The employers. Hell, we even had an "employer sanctions" provision in the infamous "papers please" law. IIRC, they only ever prosecuted one company.

So yes, there has to be consequences for companies that knowingly employ undocumented workers, and the "gosh we just didn't know" defense has to be dealt with. They know. We also need a guest worker program so that all these people coming here to work can be legally paired with employers who need the help, but also want to play by the rules. And so that we don't have a permanent underclass of migrants, the people who participate should be given a path to citizenship.

"But that's not fair to the people who come here legally and wait forever to become citizens!" Gosh, you're right. That system needs to be reformed as well. We have essentially two immigration systems in this country. One where the process is long and onerous, and one where we're more than happy to take you in and exploit your labor, so long as you don't get caught. If you do, we kick you out and hire someone else under the table.

Finally, we have to stop demonizing people who come here either fleeing chaos or looking for work. For a certain segment of our population, they only see "Mexicans" sneaking across the border to take the best jobs away from hard-working Americans. The ones who come for work aren't "taking" anything. We're giving them the jobs you won't do. Enjoy your inexpensive lettuce. The ones who come here as refugees aren't "taking" anything either. They just want to live.

p.s. we really need to end the "war on drugs." Like the labor thing, this is an issue of supply and demand. Those cartels in Mexico? They exist because north of the border is a huge, lucrative market for their products, banks that are more than happy to launder their money, and we spend billions keeping that supply coming in.

That's a great post. Although I can tell you as a former banker, that banks do not like to launder their money. The penalties are a 100 times worth the value or benefit that they get. They take great lengths to avoid the laundering (the regulations are miserable). But outside of that, you're spot on.

However, I'd also like to see a Marshall plan for Latin America. We would receive great benefits in the US from having more consumers for our products and less instability.

Point taken about the banks. I was thinking more about HSBC.

Agreed on the Marshall Plan idea. We broke it, we need to fix it.

 

[bleubird]

https://allthatsinteresting.com/banana-wars

A little more of the history.

 

[JohnG]

There is no one solution. That's the thinking that's gotten us to where we are, and most of the solutions proposed only address one thing: the fact that there are people crossing the border illegally. Walls and "get tough on the border" don't address the why of the problem.

Why do they come here? Well, a lot of them (from places like Honduras and El Salvador, for example) are fleeing danger in their home country. Gangs that have more power than the police, or in some cases ARE the police. These people would be more accurately described as refugees rather than "illegal immigrants." Walls should not be built to keep them out. If they want to come here and start a new and better life, we should assist them when they arrive. We did that for people fleeing Castro's Cuba. "What's that? You arrived here on a leaky boat? Congratulations, you get to live in Miami! What? You crossed the Rio Grande? Go back to where you came from!" Need a little consistency here, folks.

As for the migrant workers, why do they come here? Because we pay them to come here. When we catch them, we send 'em back, but we don't do anything about the massive amount of money that's being offered to them, or the people paying that money to the workers. Here in Arizona we had an infamous sheriff who would conduct very public raids on businesses that were known to hire undocumented workers. He'd have a photo op with a bunch of migrants sitting on the sidewalk in zip ties. You know who he never, ever arrested? The employers. Hell, we even had an "employer sanctions" provision in the infamous "papers please" law. IIRC, they only ever prosecuted one company.

So yes, there has to be consequences for companies that knowingly employ undocumented workers, and the "gosh we just didn't know" defense has to be dealt with. They know. We also need a guest worker program so that all these people coming here to work can be legally paired with employers who need the help, but also want to play by the rules. And so that we don't have a permanent underclass of migrants, the people who participate should be given a path to citizenship.

"But that's not fair to the people who come here legally and wait forever to become citizens!" Gosh, you're right. That system needs to be reformed as well. We have essentially two immigration systems in this country. One where the process is long and onerous, and one where we're more than happy to take you in and exploit your labor, so long as you don't get caught. If you do, we kick you out and hire someone else under the table.

Finally, we have to stop demonizing people who come here either fleeing chaos or looking for work. For a certain segment of our population, they only see "Mexicans" sneaking across the border to take the best jobs away from hard-working Americans. The ones who come for work aren't "taking" anything. We're giving them the jobs you won't do. Enjoy your inexpensive lettuce. The ones who come here as refugees aren't "taking" anything either. They just want to live.

p.s. we really need to end the "war on drugs." Like the labor thing, this is an issue of supply and demand. Those cartels in Mexico? They exist because north of the border is a huge, lucrative market for their products, banks that are more than happy to launder their money, and we spend billions keeping that supply coming in.

Started to lose a little faith in humanity reading this thread...until your post. Outside of this bit of sanity. there is some crazy shit going on in this thread.

 

[untermensche]

There is no one solution. That's the thinking that's gotten us to where we are, and most of the solutions proposed only address one thing: the fact that there are people crossing the border illegally. Walls and "get tough on the border" don't address the why of the problem.

Why do they come here? Well, a lot of them (from places like Honduras and El Salvador, for example) are fleeing danger in their home country. Gangs that have more power than the police, or in some cases ARE the police. These people would be more accurately described as refugees rather than "illegal immigrants." Walls should not be built to keep them out. If they want to come here and start a new and better life, we should assist them when they arrive. We did that for people fleeing Castro's Cuba. "What's that? You arrived here on a leaky boat? Congratulations, you get to live in Miami! What? You crossed the Rio Grande? Go back to where you came from!" Need a little consistency here, folks.

As for the migrant workers, why do they come here? Because we pay them to come here. When we catch them, we send 'em back, but we don't do anything about the massive amount of money that's being offered to them, or the people paying that money to the workers. Here in Arizona we had an infamous sheriff who would conduct very public raids on businesses that were known to hire undocumented workers. He'd have a photo op with a bunch of migrants sitting on the sidewalk in zip ties. You know who he never, ever arrested? The employers. Hell, we even had an "employer sanctions" provision in the infamous "papers please" law. IIRC, they only ever prosecuted one company.

So yes, there has to be consequences for companies that knowingly employ undocumented workers, and the "gosh we just didn't know" defense has to be dealt with. They know. We also need a guest worker program so that all these people coming here to work can be legally paired with employers who need the help, but also want to play by the rules. And so that we don't have a permanent underclass of migrants, the people who participate should be given a path to citizenship.

"But that's not fair to the people who come here legally and wait forever to become citizens!" Gosh, you're right. That system needs to be reformed as well. We have essentially two immigration systems in this country. One where the process is long and onerous, and one where we're more than happy to take you in and exploit your labor, so long as you don't get caught. If you do, we kick you out and hire someone else under the table.

Finally, we have to stop demonizing people who come here either fleeing chaos or looking for work. For a certain segment of our population, they only see "Mexicans" sneaking across the border to take the best jobs away from hard-working Americans. The ones who come for work aren't "taking" anything. We're giving them the jobs you won't do. Enjoy your inexpensive lettuce. The ones who come here as refugees aren't "taking" anything either. They just want to live.

p.s. we really need to end the "war on drugs." Like the labor thing, this is an issue of supply and demand. Those cartels in Mexico? They exist because north of the border is a huge, lucrative market for their products, banks that are more than happy to launder their money, and we spend billions keeping that supply coming in.

What you mean is there is not one problem and the problem is not people on the US border some US citizens don't care about.

The problem is centuries of US imperialism in the Western Hemisphere south of the border.

The problem is economic disparity and want.

The problem is humans have needs.

 

[TV and credit cards]

We have to help Central American countries without funneling aid through their governments.

We need to have a guest worker program that deters the need to cross the border illegally for economic reasons.

Getting tough on employers who look the other way is a hard row to hoe. They are campaign contributions. Balance this with my aforementioned guest worker program.

People may be small minded about "other people" coming into our country. You can show pictures of crying babies being handed off by desperate mothers but this only goes so far and desensitization sets in quickly. People are selfish. A government has to take care of their own before they take care of others. No one cares about the brown fella who speaks bad English getting a job as long as they have one. When the coal mining jobs, the manufacturing jobs in the one factory towns got hit, the government needed to take care when it was happening. And not decades later by trying to teach coal miners to code.

But above all else we need to be mindful of the chart I've attached. Because if we ignore it, we get another Trumplike creature in the White House. And call me selfish but that takes precedence.



https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/12/10/many-worldwide-oppose-more-migration-both-into-and-out-of-their-countries/

 

[JohnG]

What do you guys think about decriminalizing drugs? would that help or just further destabilize the situation?

BTW, totally agree with a guest worker program.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Invade Central America.

We've already tried that.
Why do you think their countries are in such a shambles? These immigrants are just blowback.

I know, that's why you need to invade and fix previous invasion. Your fault.

Can't. We haven't finished bringing Democracy to the Middle East yet. We are just three wars away... four tops! until we reach that goal. Until then, we need to deal with Central America the best way America is with foreign policy, meddling.

 

[barbos]

I know, that's why you need to invade and fix previous invasion. Your fault.

Can't. We haven't finished bringing Democracy to the Middle East yet. We are just three wars away... four tops! until we reach that goal. Until then, we need to deal with Central America the best way America is with foreign policy, meddling.

It's not time yet for Middle East, it's too recent. Mess in Central America is older, so you need to fix it first. Plus there is an ocean between Middle East and US.

And lets be honest here, Middle East is a basket case, Central America is doable.

 

[TomC]

What do you guys think about decriminalizing drugs? would that help or just further destabilize the situation?

Personally, I'm very big on that. I'm guessing it will cause some short term destabilizing effects, but in the long term it will be very helpful.

BTW, totally agree with a guest worker program.

The problem is that we have one. It's just woefully inadequate. We only give out a tiny fraction of green cards to the number of jobs we give out in any given year.

It's almost counterproductive. In the sense that isolationist folks can claim that we have one so people should wait, for a decade or so, and come here legally. Makes it easier to shift the blame onto the immigrants.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I know, that's why you need to invade and fix previous invasion. Your fault.

Can't. We haven't finished bringing Democracy to the Middle East yet. We are just three wars away... four tops! until we reach that goal. Until then, we need to deal with Central America the best way America is with foreign policy, meddling.

It's not time yet for Middle East, it's too recent. Mess in Central America is older, so you need to fix it first. Plus there is an ocean between Middle East and US.

This can be addressed with new Central American canal at the Mexico/Guatemala&Belize border. In order to make the canal more efficient, we'll need to provide independence to some portion of land.

And lets be honest here, Middle East is a basket case, Central America is doable.

The history of mankind has been plagued with so many people seeking ownership or control of the worst pieces of geography on the planet.

 

[steve_bank]

A Marshall Plan?

lot of money and effort has gone into Puerto Rica and they have not stabilized or hAVE BEEN ABKETO Mnge island affairs,

A lot of aid has gone to South nAmerica.

I think the idea of poetical stability south of the border is unrealistic. Too much corruption and influence of drug cartels.

Post WWII Japan and Europe already had pre war working governments and systems. Macarthur ruled and guided Japan by

We orchestrated elections in Iraq and it broke down into civil war.

There is no foundation for stability in may areas south of the border. Mexico has areas essentially run by cartels.decree.

 

[TomC]

Here's a fun, true story.
Mike Pence's home town, Columbus Indiana, is a sanctuary city.

Back in the late Bush Administration, while Mr Pence was an Indiana House of Representatives member from Indiana, Columbus became a sanctuary city. I don't think the term had actually become common at the time. I didn't know it.

At the time, my partner was a third shift supervisor at one of Columbus' larger employers(NTN driveshaft). He showed up for work one night and was turned back by guards at the gate. They wouldn't say why, but he had a "day off without pay".

Next day, the whole story was all over the media. A rumor had spread amongst the undocumented workers that federal officials were coming to check papers at large industrial plants, like NTN. So many employees left out the back doors, or called in, or just didn't show up, that some of the biggest employers in the county shut down. They simply didn't have enough legal employees to operate the factories. Without the illegal employees they had to shut down! It wasn't just NTN, a couple of other big outfits also shut down due to lack of legal employees.

By the following morning, the city bigwigs had launched into action. From the mayor and city council members to CEOs of big companies. Spanish language robocalls. Radio spots. All explaining that Columbus values everyone. We don't care about your immigration status. We wont let the feds interfere with your right to work here, we don't care what the INS tries to do, we won't let them.

If that's not "sanctuary city", I don't know what it is.

By the next day, things were getting back to normal. Factories humming. Work going on.

Yeah, Mike Pence is from a sanctuary city, right here in dark red Trumpistan. He was our representative to Washington while this was going on.
But he doesn't talk about it much. Not at all, as far as I know. If he didn't support his home town becoming a sanctuary city, I've never heard him say so.
Tom