Independence Day

[Jimmy Higgins]

The freedom not to pay so many taxes.

You actually have that freedom.

You can vote for political candidates who have tax cuts as their platform; And if you dislike some or all of the platforms of the candidates available, you can become a candidate yourself.

That only means I have the freedom to vote for someone who might help cut taxes. It certainly does not mean I have the freedom not to pay taxes.

But you are free to not be pragmatic about it.

One way or another, we devote at least one half of our life for government in one form or another.

Oddly, that spending is what makes it possible for you to work in the first place.

I did not write the OP for this thread.

Clearly. The OP wasn't about individual civil liberties, it was about a large scale democracy setup. They tried to loosely held federal system, but that failed. They tried again and Democracy 2.0 has done pretty well, historically speaking, for approaching 250 years. One of the other things that I didn't address was it wasn't merely enough for the Founding Fathers to declare independence and self-autonomy, but they needed to convince the other nations that it was legitimate. That was probably their second biggest achievement, after ceding power to another, freely.

 

[RVonse]

And having work inspected to meet code does not prevent one from doing the work.

In most of the saner jurisdiction it does not prevent this. But in most municipalities it is not even possible to pull a plumbing or electrical permit unless you can show proof of insurance and license with the city.

 

[Swammerdami]

The discussion of limitations on land ownership reminds me of usus, fructus and abusus -- notions of differing degrees of land ownership which are far more ancient than their Latin names.

Googling "usus fructus abusus" shows a page about Louisiana Civil Law, and also what appears to be a painting exhibition! (Why the name?)

 

[laughing dog]

And having work inspected to meet code does not prevent one from doing the work.

In most of the saner jurisdiction it does not prevent this. But in most municipalities it is not even possible to pull a plumbing or electrical permit unless you can show proof of insurance and license with the city.

“Most”? I have lived in 6 different states, in big cities, suburbs and small towns, and that has never been the case that a professional trades person was required to fo they work. Permits and inspections, yes. I know plenty of people who do there own home improvements that pass inspection.

 

[RVonse]

And having work inspected to meet code does not prevent one from doing the work.

In most of the saner jurisdiction it does not prevent this. But in most municipalities it is not even possible to pull a plumbing or electrical permit unless you can show proof of insurance and license with the city.

“Most”? I have lived in 6 different states, in big cities, suburbs and small towns, and that has never been the case that a professional trades person was required to fo they work. Permits and inspections, yes. I know plenty of people who do there own home improvements that pass inspection.

The city of St. Louis does not. I know because I have (in past) owned property there. They required a licensed plumber to make all repairs regardless of how minor I thought it was.

 

[bilby]

That only means I have the freedom to vote for someone who might help cut taxes. It certainly does not mean I have the freedom not to pay taxes.

Sure it does. If you are prepared to put in the effort.

Sounds to me like you are just whining because it's very, very, difficult to persuade everyone else that taxes are a bad idea.

Which might mean you are a lazy whiner; Or might mean that you are simply mistaken, and that taxes are in fact a very good idea. In either of which case, you have no justification for wanting your views to dominate over everyone else's freedom.

What, do you think you are more important than the rest of your nation's citizens??

 

[bilby]

One way or another, we devote at least one half of our life for government in one form or another. We have to do what big brother wants us to do and he is watching all the time and collecting all our data.

In the US today, and in a handful of other democracies, for the first time in recorded history, the government is not Big Brother, but is instead your neighbours and fellow citizens.

You should be proud to spend a part of your life helping other Americans, just as they have helped, are helping, and will in future help, you.

If, instead, you choose to be a self-obsessed paranoid whiner, that's your right as a free man; But don't imagine that anybody else thinks of it as noble or principled.

 

[Toni]

In most jurisdictions, we aren't legally given enough independence to celebrate this holiday with fireworks. The labor class now pays far more tax than during the original tea party tax rebellion. Giving more of their time and service to established bureaucrats in Washington then the serfs gave to their Kings did during medieval times. Regardless of color, ethnicity, or background, we are all part of modern day slavery in and on the plantations of slavelandia USA.

Independence Day is a day worthy to celebrate only if you are living in your bubble matrix. And it will be even less of a holiday if the WEF gets its way with the world.

Life must be miserable in that imaginary dystopia of yours.

Living standards today by any reasonable metric are much higher than in the medieval or colonial times.

I agree with you that living standards today are much better. But technology and automation is not freedom and independence from government. And they do not need to be mutually exclusive.

It should be possible to live free and also have technology.

Define freedom. Does my neighbor’s freedom to light up fireworks operate only within his own personal bubble or can it be justly regulated so that his bottle rockets don’t set fire to my home? Does he have the freedom to teach his 2 year old how long it is safe to hold a lit firecracker? Can someone set off fireworks under my porch? In my neighbor’s dog kennel? Does it matter if there is a drought and the risk of fire is significant? Must people simply expect to have their sleep disturbed throughout the month of July? Should people not have the freedom to a reasonable expectation of the safe abd peaceful use of their domicile?

Whose freedom do you care about anyway?

 

[jonatha]

Federal income tax alone is 25%, add FICA of 15% = 40%.

I'm going to call bullshit.

Let's see how much you have to make In order for your overall (not marginal) Federal income tax rate to get to 25%. We'll use 2023 tax brackets and assume you're single.

The first $14,600 is tax free due to the standard exemption.

The next $11,000 (giving you an income of $25,600) is taxed at 10%, so additional tax and total tax so far is $1,100, which is 4.3% of your $25,600 income.

The next $33,725 (giving you an income of $59,325) is taxed at 12%, so additional tax is $4,047 and total tax is $5,147 or 8.68% of your $59,325 income.

The next $50,650 (income $109,975) is taxed at 22%; additional tax $11,143; total tax $16,920 or 14.81% of your $109,974 income.

The next $86,725 (income $196,700) is taxed at 24%; additional tax $20,814; total tax $37,104 or 18.86% of your $196,700 income.

The next $49,150 (income $245,850) is taxed at 32%; additional tax $15,728; total tax $52,832 or 21.49% of your $245,850 income.

The next $346,865 (income $592,725) is taxed at 35%; additional tax $121,406.25; total tax $174,238.25, at which point you have finally exceeded the 25% total rate and are at 29.4%.

So unless you're making somewhere north of about $500K from wages (rather than long-term capital gains, which are taxed at no more than 20% and so cannot possibly reach the 25% threshhold) you are *not* paying 25% of your income in federal income taxes. (If you are making that much I hope to Dog you have somebody else handling your finances - you clearly aren't competent to do so.)

And unless you're a sole proprietor you aren't paying the entire 15.3% of FICA but only half of it, and most of that only on the first $160K or so of wages, so that part of your math fails too...

 

[ZiprHead]

“Most”? I have lived in 6 different states, in big cities, suburbs and small towns, and that has never been the case that a professional trades person was required to fo they work. Permits and inspections, yes. I know plenty of people who do there own home improvements that pass inspection.

The city of St. Louis does not. I know because I have (in past) owned property there. They required a licensed plumber to make all repairs regardless of how minor I thought it was.

Really?

https://stlouiscountymo.gov/st-louis-county-departments/transportation-and-public-works/residential-building/plumbing-work-residential/#:~:text=Residential%20building%20projects%20within%20unincorporated,Master%20Plumber%20or%20qualifying%20homeowner.

When is a Plumbing Permit Required on a Residential Project?​

A Plumbing Permit is required to install, enlarge, alter, repair, remove, convert, or replace equipment, potable water supply and distribution piping, fixtures and traps, drainage and vent pipes, building drains and sewers including laterals, including their respective joints and connections, devices, receptors, and appurtenances or any other component of a plumbing system.

Some examples of typical residential plumbing projects that require a Plumbing Permit are: new house construction; fix-up/rehabilitation repair projects; plumbing work associated with remodeling, renovating or enlarging a house; resetting, relocating, or installing plumbing fixtures associated with remodeling or reconfiguring kitchens or bathrooms; installing bathrooms, bar sinks, or other plumbing associated with finishing basements; repairing or replacing the water distribution piping, building drain/waste piping, or vent system; replacing a water heater; installing or replacing a backflow device for a lawn irrigation system, etc.

With respect to repairs, a Plumbing Permit is required to repair the plumbing system in a building or structure that has been damaged from fire, flood, or severe wind; and as part of a fix-up/rehabilitation building project, to repair or replace plumbing fixtures and/or components of a plumbing system that have not been maintained in good condition due to lack of on-going maintenance or neglect.

Residential building projects within unincorporated county and contracting municipalities that include plumbing work are issued as an Integrated Building Permit (one permit for the entire job). Plumbing work must be done by a licensed Master Plumber or qualifying homeowner.

The following types of work are considered minor ordinary repairs or minor work for which a Plumbing Permit will not be required; provided such ordinary repairs are regularly performed as on-going continued maintenance for the purpose of maintaining the building's plumbing system in good condition:

1. Minor repairs within the interior of any building. That includes leaks in drains, pipes, traps, and valves, opening waste or supply pipes, and traps or drains. (Note: Minor repairs shall not be construed to include any work involving connections to or replacement or rearrangement of soil pipes, supply pipes, waste pipes, vent pipes or inside rain leader pipes, or the replacing or setting of any fixture, or replacement or repairs to Backflow Prevention devices, pressure reducing or regulating valves. A permit is required for this kind of repair work.)
   
2. Replacing internal components within a water closet tank such as a defective flush valve, float, stopper/flapper, replacing internal components such as washers on a faucet or hose bib, replacing defective TPR valves on water heaters, and replacing treaded hose bibs
3. Replacing a kitchen or bathroom faucet or garbage disposal in the same location, provided that no additional repair work is required beyond the fixture tubing connections or disposal waste connections
   
   (Note: A Plumbing Permit is required to replace and/or reset fixtures such as kitchen sinks, water closets, bathroom sinks, tubs, or showers, or to replace/install dishwashers as part of simple kitchen and bathroom remodels, as well as to extend/modify the water supply piping and/or trap arm and waste/drain piping to accommodate reconfigured kitchen cabinet or bathroom layouts on more complex kitchen or bathroom remodels, etc.)
   
4. Installing a lawn irrigation system beyond the required backflow device
   (Note: A plumbing permit is required for the installation of the required backflow device.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In most jurisdictions, we aren't legally given enough independence to celebrate this holiday with fireworks. The labor class now pays far more tax than during the original tea party tax rebellion. Giving more of their time and service to established bureaucrats in Washington then the serfs gave to their Kings did during medieval times. Regardless of color, ethnicity, or background, we are all part of modern day slavery in and on the plantations of slavelandia USA.

Independence Day is a day worthy to celebrate only if you are living in your bubble matrix. And it will be even less of a holiday if the WEF gets its way with the world.

The expectations of safety are far higher today than they were in times past. Look how many fires are started by fireworks.

And, yes, we pay far more tax than in the time of the tea party--but we get a lot more from that tax, also.

Would I want to live in the economy of 1776? Not a question as I wouldn't be alive. (And wouldn't even have been born as my mother would have died in childhood.) And while the state takes a bigger share it's taking it from a far bigger pie.

We don't have good data for the numbers back then but this seems like a reasonable start:

https://eml.berkeley.edu/~webfac/cromer/e211_f12/LindertWilliamson.pdf

85.26 1840-dollars per capita. 3,500% inflation since then = 2,984 current-dollars per capita. Note that this is way below the current poverty line--most everyone lived in what would be considered poverty by modern standards.

Current average tax burden for childless people in the US is 30.5%. I'd much prefer 69.5% of the average $65k income = $45k than 100% of $3k even before considering anything I get for that tax money.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The freedom not to pay so many taxes. I almost feel like it is actually the US government working for my employer and I get a cut from the paycheck going to them since I'm the one who shows up everyday. I lose over 50% of my paycheck to taxes in one form or another.

Sure of that, since the average is 30%?

The freedom to do what I want to do with my house. If I want to make an improvement, I should be allowed to do the work myself if it pleases me.

If it were only you, I would agree. The problem is that your shoddy improvement may harm a future owner of your house. Or it might harm the neighborhood if you did shoddy gas work. And there's much more realm to do shoddy work now because of all the stuff that goes in our walls. And note that in most places you can do most of your own work, you just have to have it professionally inspected.

The freedom to raise my kids like I want. I should not have to be constantly worried about whether someone else thinks I am not doing a good enough job at this.

Child abuse used to be far more common. I prefer the state to be in a position of setting minimum standards. What in particular is bothering you?

The freedom to buy drugs that I know will help my health without a prescription from a doctor.

If your knowledge is correct you shouldn't have a problem getting a prescription. Doctors are not there to deny appropriate use, they are to avoid inappropriate use.

The freedom to buy a car that doesn't constantly have a bell going off if I decide I do not want to wear a seat belt.

1) When you get all banged up because you weren't wearing it you'll still expect society to bear the costs.

2) Seat belts are not just for you. I've been basically PITted, the world was way too chaotic to make any steering decisions but my belt did exactly what it was supposed to and locked which meant I retained my orientation to the controls and my foot found the brake. Without that there would have been a third collision that would have tossed me back into a high speed traffic lane.

The freedom to ride a bike without a helmit if it pleases me

Again, that translates into society bearing costs.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Its mathematically provable.

Fuck math. Post a photo of your pay stub. Simple as that. Black out any personal information you wish.

Tax is more than the pay stub.

It's pretty hard to picture a 50% situation, though, unless he's a retiree with an expensive house in a high property tax state.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The freedom to do what I want to do with my house. If I want to make an improvement, I should be allowed to do the work myself if it pleases me.

Where do you live where you are prohibited from improving your housethrough your own labor?

Utility work normally requires licenses but most states permit most utility work on your own house without a license. (But typically with an inspection.)

And AC coolant loops always require a license unless it's halogen free coolant.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

• • You really overestimate your intelligence if you think you "know" enough about medical science to choose your own regime of medications.

Actually, there are cases where a patient would be perfectly well able to handle maintenance stuff with just general guidelines.

My problems with food have lead to high blood pressure (I very much think that it's purely a reaction, but not something I can avoid) and I've wished the system was a bit more patient friendly--it's something I can perfectly well measure, give me a script with the drug and an acceptable range and let me dial it in to what works best.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I do not take any prescription drugs on a regular basis but I am highly allergic to poison ivy. It is a weed that you do not know about the first day you come in contact but the next day is when the rash begins to build. Then the day after that is when things really start going out of control. At a certain point without the use of prescribed steroids I can develop a very nasty pus laden reaction. I am no doctor but this has happened so often that I know from my own experience exactly what my result will end up just from the first day, not taking or taking the steroids based on my last experience.

Why do I have to call a doctor for about 10 pills to cure a poison ivy reaction? The first day is 5 pills and then one less pill everyday afterwards. Why do I have to waste my life going to his office and pay a needless charge for a service I don't want? The last time I took steroids was around 3-4 years ago so its clearly not an addictive no mind altering drug that my body might be craving. Nor would I take steroids just for the fun of it since the drug itself is not free.

It should be my right and freedom to buy steroids for myself when I want them. And if I killed myself with the steroids that would be no different than if I killed myself buying knife and cutting something on myself that was important.

Steroids are one of those drug classes that can easily go bad with overuse.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I strongly suspect you vastly overestimate your income tac burden.

Federal income tax alone is 25%, add FICA of 15% = 40%. Then add the fed's inflation tax of >10%.

Inflation is the stealth tax engineered by the fed and it is far far higher than the published rates of the consumer lying index. No other jurisdiction has the legal right to print money and steal from others.

And his suspicion is proven correct.

1) You are mixing up marginal rate with tax burden. We are in that same tax bracket, but I would say that our overall tax rate is about 20% of (money in - business expenses) plus I would ballpark 2% in other taxes, mostly property tax.

2) What 10% inflation tax? The inflation rate is currently 3.4% and note that applies to capital, not income. Reasonable investments of your money (not merely CDs or the like!) will more than compensate.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Remember that half of your FICA is paid by your employer. Which means that amount of tax would be added to your earnings if he did not have to give it to the federal government.

Oh, you poor naive little lamb. Why would an employer agree to give you that money when you've already agreed to your rate of pay as it is?

You're being unfair here. It is quite reasonable to consider the employer FICA to be part of the tax burden. Those of us without employers pay the entire 15.3%.

Consider my former employer: Installers could work as employees (in which case we paid FICA and various other things) or as subcontractors (for a substantially higher rate, but they paid their own costs.) It's not reasonable to say that the employee ones had a lower tax burden than the subcontractors. (And, actually, the subcontractors probably had a lower tax burden because schedule C is far more deduction-friendly than schedule A.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The next $346,865 (income $592,725) is taxed at 35%; additional tax $121,406.25; total tax $174,238.25, at which point you have finally exceeded the 25% total rate and are at 29.4%.

So unless you're making somewhere north of about $500K from wages (rather than long-term capital gains, which are taxed at no more than 20% and so cannot possibly reach the 25% threshhold) you are *not* paying 25% of your income in federal income taxes. (If you are making that much I hope to Dog you have somebody else handling your finances - you clearly aren't competent to do so.)

And unless you're a sole proprietor you aren't paying the entire 15.3% of FICA but only half of it, and most of that only on the first $160K or so of wages, so that part of your math fails too...

I don't mind his counting the whole 15.3%. But thank you for doing the math anyway--because you showed that to get personal income tax to 25% FICA has already topped out and IIRC drops to 2.3% because the Medicare part doesn't go away. Thus you can never actually reach 40% federal taxes.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The following types of work are considered minor ordinary repairs or minor work for which a Plumbing Permit will not be required; provided such ordinary repairs are regularly performed as on-going continued maintenance for the purpose of maintaining the building's plumbing system in good condition:

1. Minor repairs within the interior of any building. That includes leaks in drains, pipes, traps, and valves, opening waste or supply pipes, and traps or drains. (Note: Minor repairs shall not be construed to include any work involving connections to or replacement or rearrangement of soil pipes, supply pipes, waste pipes, vent pipes or inside rain leader pipes, or the replacing or setting of any fixture, or replacement or repairs to Backflow Prevention devices, pressure reducing or regulating valves. A permit is required for this kind of repair work.)
2. Replacing internal components within a water closet tank such as a defective flush valve, float, stopper/flapper, replacing internal components such as washers on a faucet or hose bib, replacing defective TPR valves on water heaters, and replacing treaded hose bibs
3. Replacing a kitchen or bathroom faucet or garbage disposal in the same location, provided that no additional repair work is required beyond the fixture tubing connections or disposal waste connections
   
   (Note: A Plumbing Permit is required to replace and/or reset fixtures such as kitchen sinks, water closets, bathroom sinks, tubs, or showers, or to replace/install dishwashers as part of simple kitchen and bathroom remodels, as well as to extend/modify the water supply piping and/or trap arm and waste/drain piping to accommodate reconfigured kitchen cabinet or bathroom layouts on more complex kitchen or bathroom remodels, etc.)
4. Installing a lawn irrigation system beyond the required backflow device
   (Note: A plumbing permit is required for the installation of the required backflow device.)

Which is pretty close to a 100% match with what I would DIY vs hire done, the only difference being that backflow device.