Infinite Past

[PyramidHead]

Then the analogy does not fit the case.

The claim is that at any given moment infinite moments have already occurred. Infinite time has already passed.

It would be equivalent to somebody claiming that before a given moment ALL the infinite stairs have already been climbed.

That's the analogy in a nutshell. Since the bottom of the building exists, somebody must have descended an infinite number of stairs to get here. But that doesn't make sense, does it? You said it yourself: since there is no top you obviously can't start there. So they must have started somewhere, and no matter where that was, it was a finite number of floors from the bottom. Get it now?

Something without end cannot have already passed.

Passed since when?

It's a contradiction. A thing that passes without end (infinite time) cannot have already passed.

An infinite past is not a past with no end. It's a past with no beginning. The end is the present, right now.

 

[untermensche]

That's the analogy in a nutshell. Since the bottom of the building exists, somebody must have descended an infinite number of stairs to get here. But that doesn't make sense, does it? You said it yourself: since there is no top you obviously can't start there. So they must have started somewhere, and no matter where that was, it was a finite number of floors from the bottom. Get it now?

In your analogy the infinite past would be the top floor.

And claiming infinite time has already passed would be equivalent to claiming you have already climbed to the top.

Moving to the tail of an infinity from some arbitrary point within it is not having an infinity already passed before you get to that point.

An infinite past is not a past with no end. It's a past with no beginning. The end is the present, right now.

This is why I always make people agree to the terms before I discuss this topic.

Infinite time is time without end.

It is equivalent to the future if the universe never stops.

It doesn't matter if we talk about infinite time in the past or infinite time in the future. They are equivalent.

They are both time without end.

If we can't agree to that we can't discuss this.

 

[PyramidHead]

In your analogy the infinite past would be the top floor.

And claiming infinite time has already passed would be equivalent to claiming you have already climbed to the top.

Moving to the tail of an infinity from some arbitrary point within it is not having an infinity already passed before you get to that point.

An infinite past is not a past with no end. It's a past with no beginning. The end is the present, right now.

This is why I always make people agree to the terms before I discuss this topic.

Infinite time is time without end.

It is equivalent to the future if the universe never stops.

It doesn't matter if we talk about infinite time in the past or infinite time in the future. They are equivalent.

They are both time without end.

If we can't agree to that we can't discuss this.

Ok bye!

 

[untermensche]

Ok bye!

Sure. If you can't agree that infinite time = infinite time there is nothing to discuss.

Saying "time without beginning" is an equal amount of time to "time without end". It is not saying anything different. It is just saying the same thing in a different way.

 

[Bronzeage]

Do you think that the idea that the past might be infinite is a logical contradiction because by definition the past ends with the present moment?
EB

The past does not end at the present moment. The past begins at the present moment.

 

[Kharakov]

There are not an infinite amount of finite length segments in a line segment. There are an infinite amount of points on a line segment.

Since the present is a point rather than a segment, there are an infinite amount of previously present points in the past between now and 1 second ago.

A point is not real. Spacetime is.

Spacetime is smooth. This means 2 points (locations) in it can have an infinite amount of points between them. I don't know who would want to watch a time lapse from 10^-50 seconds ago to now, but if you zoomed in enough and had the ability to detect sub-Planck scale movement, you'd see stuff moving from one frame to the next (2*10^-52 second frames would work).

Basically, time is smooth, because nature (or God if you're a lying, hypocritical piece of shit who likes to take advantage of their socioeconomic position to ignore the fact that you're a piece of shit sacrificing others for your own pleasure... playing God, so to speak) is smooth and continuous.

 

[blastula]

B-theory of time - Wikipedia

 

[untermensche]

Do you think that the idea that the past might be infinite is a logical contradiction because by definition the past ends with the present moment?
EB

The past does not end at the present moment. The past begins at the present moment.

All the moments in the past are finished (ended) at the present moment.

Where they began is the question.

 

[bilby]

No. The argument is that the "present" moment would never arrive because an infinite number of moments would have to occur prior to this one.

That's exactly the argument.

Not too hard to understand.

If one had to take infinite steps before one arrived one would never arrive.

This information will come as a great relief to tortoises everywhere, as they are now immune to being shot.

Unless of course your mathematical understanding is several thousand years out of date, and/or it is in fact possible to shoot a tortoise.

 

[ryan]

There are an infinite number of moments between now and 1 second ago, assuming a non-granular time. There might be a finite number of well defined thoughts and forms between now and 1 second ago, but AFASIAIOK, spacetime is smooth, not granular, which means it can be divided into any number of pieces we desire.

If there are an infinite number of moments between now and 1 second then we will never get there.

For time to advance it must be discreet, quantized.

I am glad this thread is back; I have been thinking about this lately.

Untermensche, I admit that I was on your side on this, I think a year or two ago. But a few months ago I was thinking that if a physical continuum does exist, and something is able to traverse this continuum, possibly the consciousness, then that means that there are in fact points that have had to traverse an infinite number of infinitesimals in order to gain any measurable distance, and we assume that things do travel distances.

Now, remember, if you add 5 infinitesimal "units" of length to an exact starting point, you are not any further than if you only added 3 units of infinitesimal length. Infinitesimals are just different than anything with actual length. It takes 0 seconds to pass an infinitesimal, so it shouldn't seem too weird that an infinite number of infinitesimals would take a length of time greater than 0, right?

 

[bilby]

The past does not end at the present moment. The past begins at the present moment.

All the moments in the past are finished (ended) at the present moment.

Where they began is the question.

'Where they began' is question begging.

If the past is infinite, they didn't begin. By trying to model an infinite past from its beginning, you are assuming your conclusion that there is a beginning.

 

[ryan]

All the moments in the past are finished (ended) at the present moment.

Where they began is the question.

'Where they began' is question begging.

If the past is infinite, they didn't begin. By trying to model an infinite past from its beginning, you are assuming your conclusion that there is a beginning.

There can be a beginning to infinity; there also can be an end. It all depends on the (1) reference and (2) ability. If Bob is standing on 1 of the entire natural number line, he can begin walking.

1) Reference: If someone fell into a black hole, they would see Bob finish his journey through the naturals (even if Bob walks at a finite pace).

2) Ability: If Bob runs infinitely fast, he would get to the end of the naturals in a finite amount of time.

Untermensche's "paradox" assumes that neither that particular reference is possible nor the ability.

Untermenshe is right that Bob, walking a finite speed, will never reach infinite, and thus could not be at his "infinitieth" step in the present if he were only walking a finite amount of time from the negatives.

 

[ryan]

The passage of time is measured between moments and every moment in time is a finite amount of time from right now. It still does not follow from that that the past is bounded.

Saying 'an infinite amount of time must have passed before now' implicitly tries to measure time 'from the beginning', presupposing the conclusion.

No measurement involved.

If we stop time at some moment, infinite time in the past would mean that infinite moments have already passed.

Infinite moments is moments without end.

They cannot already have passed.

A huge problem here, you are forgetting that infinite infinitesimal moments only = a finite moment and nothing more (assuming countably infinite), in math and thus probably in our physical reality if there are physical continuums. Finite moments of equal length will equal infinity.

 

[untermensche]

All the moments in the past are finished (ended) at the present moment.

Where they began is the question.

'Where they began' is question begging.

If the past is infinite, they didn't begin. By trying to model an infinite past from its beginning, you are assuming your conclusion that there is a beginning.

There is no difference in saying time didn't begin or saying it doesn't end.

In this case Infinity = Infinity.

If time never began that is like a building that was never built.

You have nothing.

 

[untermensche]

No measurement involved.

If we stop time at some moment, infinite time in the past would mean that infinite moments have already passed.

Infinite moments is moments without end.

They cannot already have passed.

A huge problem here, you are forgetting that infinite infinitesimal moments only = a finite moment and nothing more (assuming countably infinite), in math and thus probably in our physical reality if there are physical continuums. Finite moments of equal length will equal infinity.

You can have infinite points within a finite space if they have NO dimension.

In other words IF they are imaginary.

Time is not imaginary.

 

[ryan]

One more thing I want to say about this, to those on Untermensche's side.

If the universe did in fact begin from a singularity and then begin to stretch, it would not be surprising that we find our present moment not at the edges of infinity. For example, if you were to somehow stretch a single point into a 2-dimensional distance like an elastic (like the Big Bang might have done) there would suddenly appear to be points on the elastic that are an infinite # of infinitesimals far into your elastic that did not necessarily have to travel any distance at all to get there.

 

[beero1000]

One more thing I want to say about this, to those on Untermensche's side.

If the universe did in fact begin from a singularity and then begin to stretch, it would not be surprising that we find our present moment not at the edges of infinity. For example, if you were to somehow stretch a single point into a 2-dimensional distance like an elastic (like the Big Bang might have done) there would suddenly appear to be points on the elastic that are an infinite # of infinitesimals far into your elastic that did not necessarily have to travel any distance at all to get there.

IS there anyone on untermensche's side? That an unbounded past is a logical impossibility? Anyone?

 

[Kharakov]

Untermenshe is right that Bob, walking a finite speed, will never reach infinite, and thus could not be at his "infinitieth" step in the present if he were only walking a finite amount of time from the negatives.

You won't ever reach the "end of the naturals", there isn't one. It's like you'll never find the smallest finite unit of time- there isn't one.

Traveling from 1 to 2 on the number line requires one to traverse an infinite amount of points.

Between location A and different location B in spacetime, there are an infinite amount of locations (spacetime is smooth/continuous). There is 10% of the distance from A to B, 1% of the distance, .1% of the distance, .01% of the distance......

If you take a finite step, you have traversed an infinite amount of locations in spacetime- every single location between the start of and end of your step has been traversed.

Likewise from one moment in time to the next- there are always an infinite amount of moments in any finite amount of time.

 

[Kharakov]

You can have infinite points within a finite space if they have NO dimension. In other words IF they are imaginary. Time is not imaginary.

Geeze. You don't understand that anything 0 length, like the present, is a point that doesn't have any length. There are an infinite amount of presents in the past, and the future.

 

[J842P]

A point is not real. Spacetime is.

Spacetime is smooth. This means 2 points (locations) in it can have an infinite amount of points between them. I don't know who would want to watch a time lapse from 10^-50 seconds ago to now, but if you zoomed in enough and had the ability to detect sub-Planck scale movement, you'd see stuff moving from one frame to the next (2*10^-52 second frames would work).

Basically, time is smooth, because nature (or God if you're a lying, hypocritical piece of shit who likes to take advantage of their socioeconomic position to ignore the fact that you're a piece of shit sacrificing others for your own pleasure... playing God, so to speak) is smooth and continuous.

Wouldn't it be more correct to state that "spacetime is *modelled* as a smooth function*.