Intelligence, race and related issues.

[Trausti]

So if genetic clustering is a "thing," does that mean differences is cognition and behavior could develop over time between separate inbreeding population groups? And might this offer an explanation where social theories consistently fail?

Local adaptation in European populations affected the genetics of psychiatric disorders and behavioral traits

The top finding was related to the association between winter minimum temperature and schizophrenia. Additional significant geo-climate results were also observed with respect to bipolar disorder (sunny daylight), depressive symptoms (precipitation rate), major depressive disorder (precipitation rate), and subjective well-being (relative humidity). Beyond geo-climate variables, we also observed findings related to pathogen diversity and language phonological complexity: openness to experience was associated with protozoan diversity; conscientiousness and extraversion were associated with language consonants.

 

[Trausti]

Ugh. As the Catholic Church set out to protect the faithful from exposure to dangerous ideas, lets follow Lewontin's example and cover our eyes and ears and watch our tongues.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

That's quite a claim.

Racists have been trying to prove it for some time but haven't found anything that actually shows it. Everything we see is cultural or medical (nutrition, disease), not genetic.

But that’s not correct. Mass government spending on education has done nothing to close the achievement gaps. And, curiously, these gaps are largest where the local culture is anti-hereditarian and kneels at the social justice altar, e.g., Berkley, CA, and Madison, WI.

That could merely show that the barriers are bigger than expected, and/or that the efforts have been badly done. Racist policies to fight racist policies may very well breed more rather than fewer problems. Likewise with the bigotry of low expectations. People often grow into the labels assigned to them. If you aren't expected to amount to much, good chance you won't.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I have worked with people from around the world. From what I see anyone who has the general equivalent to our primary education are on the average no better or worse rhan anyone else.

There is a thriving Ethiopian immigrant community in Seattle. Those who come with basic education pick up English. Some go to college or trade schools. Those without the foundation have trouble picking up English and communicating. They are stuck in low wage jobs.

I'd say culture matters more than any generic variation.

The problem with statistical studies is isolating all relevant vsaribles.

In the JFK era the Moinahan Report showed that the biggest factor affecting kids performing in school was income and family stability. Race was not an issue. Controversial at the time. Further it was said welfare was destroying black families exacerbating the problem.

I’d say that what really matters is opportunity.

We don’t all get the same opportunity or the same number of opportunities in life. We all have some opportunities. And we all have some burdens. I don’t believe the world will ever be such that opportunity and burden are equally distributed among people, but we could sure do a much better job of easing some of the worst burdens and ensuring that all people get the chances they need to make the most of their lives.

Start by raising the floor. Don't have anyone worried about if they will eat tomorrow. Have some minimal financial stability for all. Have health care for all as well. Do that and be amazed how the lower ends of society find further upward mobility and with more people productive expect to see everyone benefit.

 

[Trausti]

But that’s not correct. Mass government spending on education has done nothing to close the achievement gaps. And, curiously, these gaps are largest where the local culture is anti-hereditarian and kneels at the social justice altar, e.g., Berkley, CA, and Madison, WI.

That could merely show that the barriers are bigger than expected, and/or that the efforts have been badly done. Racist policies to fight racist policies may very well breed more rather than fewer problems. Likewise with the bigotry of low expectations. People often grow into the labels assigned to them. If you aren't expected to amount to much, good chance you won't.

The thing is that in the US education is a local affair - county/city. There are over 16,000 public school districts in the US. That the achievement gap is apparent in *all* of them shows that you are dealing with something other than policy.

 

[barbos]

That's quite a claim.

Racists have been trying to prove it for some time but haven't found anything that actually shows it. Everything we see is cultural or medical (nutrition, disease), not genetic.

You just repeated your claim.
I mean I did post a study which directly debunks your "everything" claim

 

[ruby sparks]

That's quite a claim.

Racists have been trying to prove it for some time but haven't found anything that actually shows it. Everything we see is cultural or medical (nutrition, disease), not genetic.

You just repeated your claim.
I mean I did post a study which directly debunks your "everything" claim

Your study must have been badly flawed. Loren thoroughly checks these things you know.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

But that’s not correct. Mass government spending on education has done nothing to close the achievement gaps. And, curiously, these gaps are largest where the local culture is anti-hereditarian and kneels at the social justice altar, e.g., Berkley, CA, and Madison, WI.

That could merely show that the barriers are bigger than expected, and/or that the efforts have been badly done. Racist policies to fight racist policies may very well breed more rather than fewer problems. Likewise with the bigotry of low expectations. People often grow into the labels assigned to them. If you aren't expected to amount to much, good chance you won't.

The thing is that in the US education is a local affair - county/city. There are over 16,000 public school districts in the US. That the achievement gap is apparent in *all* of them shows that you are dealing with something other than policy.

Is there a racial achievement gap when comparing rich black kids with poor white kids?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

But that’s not correct. Mass government spending on education has done nothing to close the achievement gaps. And, curiously, these gaps are largest where the local culture is anti-hereditarian and kneels at the social justice altar, e.g., Berkley, CA, and Madison, WI.

That could merely show that the barriers are bigger than expected, and/or that the efforts have been badly done. Racist policies to fight racist policies may very well breed more rather than fewer problems. Likewise with the bigotry of low expectations. People often grow into the labels assigned to them. If you aren't expected to amount to much, good chance you won't.

The thing is that in the US education is a local affair - county/city. There are over 16,000 public school districts in the US. That the achievement gap is apparent in *all* of them shows that you are dealing with something other than policy.

No. Our family moved around a lot. School districts were different because of policy decisions. Some of those districts didn't offer the level of opportunity and enrichment that we thought were necessary for proper development. In fact we perceived some of them to be handicapping that process. Culture and money were the differences.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

But that’s not correct. Mass government spending on education has done nothing to close the achievement gaps. And, curiously, these gaps are largest where the local culture is anti-hereditarian and kneels at the social justice altar, e.g., Berkley, CA, and Madison, WI.

If that was the case Head Start wouldn't be so successful. Children without access to programs like Head Start enter Kindergarten unable to read, and struggle with the alphabet. While the benefits begin to dissipate deeper into grade school, that is most likely an indication that continued enrichment is necessary for certain children that do not have access to enrichment outside of the school. Then you have the other early learning programs that help children to exceed expectations they would never have achieved a generation ago thanks to early diagnoses and adapting to their conditions early on.

All of this spending helps to alleviate some of the stress for Kindergarten and onward teachers, requiring a smaller spectrum of capabilities of their students to adjust to. Of course, each dime has to be dragged out of the wallets in many red state capitals across the nation.

Right-wing commentary on public schooling is on the level of fan fiction with virtually no actual experience in the field.

 

[barbos]

But that’s not correct. Mass government spending on education has done nothing to close the achievement gaps. And, curiously, these gaps are largest where the local culture is anti-hereditarian and kneels at the social justice altar, e.g., Berkley, CA, and Madison, WI.

If that was the case Head Start wouldn't be so successful. Children without access to programs like Head Start enter Kindergarten unable to read, and struggle with the alphabet.

You are supposed to be able to read before Kindergarten???
I know english is much more difficult to learn to read than russian, but I learned to read/write in school starting at the age of 7.
Maybe Head Start is actually a bad idea.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

But that’s not correct. Mass government spending on education has done nothing to close the achievement gaps. And, curiously, these gaps are largest where the local culture is anti-hereditarian and kneels at the social justice altar, e.g., Berkley, CA, and Madison, WI.

If that was the case Head Start wouldn't be so successful. Children without access to programs like Head Start enter Kindergarten unable to read, and struggle with the alphabet.

You are supposed to be able to read before Kindergarten???
I know english is much more difficult to learn to read than russian, but I learned to read/write in school starting at the age of 7.
Maybe Head Start is actually a bad idea.

It's quite common for kids to read before kindergarten. Parents and siblings reading to them while they flip the pages is how they learn.

Words are just more pictures to them. They associate and learn fast. They also learn by watching the right shows at home.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You are supposed to be able to read before Kindergarten???
I know english is much more difficult to learn to read than russian, but I learned to read/write in school starting at the age of 7.
Maybe Head Start is actually a bad idea.

The more you don't know...

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

But that’s not correct. Mass government spending on education has done nothing to close the achievement gaps. And, curiously, these gaps are largest where the local culture is anti-hereditarian and kneels at the social justice altar, e.g., Berkley, CA, and Madison, WI.

If that was the case Head Start wouldn't be so successful. Children without access to programs like Head Start enter Kindergarten unable to read, and struggle with the alphabet.

You are supposed to be able to read before Kindergarten???
I know english is much more difficult to learn to read than russian, but I learned to read/write in school starting at the age of 7.
Maybe Head Start is actually a bad idea.

In Russia, books read you.

 

[Elixir]

You are supposed to be able to read before Kindergarten???

Not in Russia, apparently.

I know english is much more difficult to learn to read than russian, but I learned to read/write in school starting at the age of 7.

It shows.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

But that’s not correct. Mass government spending on education has done nothing to close the achievement gaps. And, curiously, these gaps are largest where the local culture is anti-hereditarian and kneels at the social justice altar, e.g., Berkley, CA, and Madison, WI.

If that was the case Head Start wouldn't be so successful. Children without access to programs like Head Start enter Kindergarten unable to read, and struggle with the alphabet.

You are supposed to be able to read before Kindergarten???
I know english is much more difficult to learn to read than russian, but I learned to read/write in school starting at the age of 7.
Maybe Head Start is actually a bad idea.

English is difficult to learn, especially as a second language (I speak from experience - learned it my early teens and have also learned Thai as a second language; it's not even close in which was harder).

 

[ronburgundy]

Thanks.

You know more than me about genetics, obviously.

But from a layman's perspective...

Setting race aside, the idea that intelligence is heritable (directly via genes I mean) seems more than plausible (and quite well supported).

So, if that's true (and I did use the word if) then, if, also, the (for want of a better word) breeding is segregated, at least quite a bit, then, wouldn't one expect to see.... certain patterns emerge, among groups?

ETA: I hadn't read your reply to Moogly before posting, and although I don't fully understand it, it seems as if you may have touched on what I just said?

This is where the discussion gets blocked. We fully accept this for all other life but humans. Instead, we take a page from the Intelligent Design lobby and view humans as special; that evolution and natural selection are true - but not the politically uncomfortable parts. For those we imagine that nature inexplicably follows the contours of the preferred political dogma. And that dogma will be enforced.

The discussion gets blocked because racists who don't actually understand the science of intelligence, genetics, or evolution go from the premise that X % of the total variability in intelligence is genetically influenced to the logically unrelated conclusion that X% of the difference in average intelligence between groups is genetically influenced.

One has no bearing on the other for reasons I explained in detail.

In fact, it doesn't even make sense that something like general intelligence would be differentially selected for in different environments. Unlike darker skin pigment, more height, flatter facial shape, more body hair, etc.., general intelligence is, by definition, so basic to human cognition that it is always beneficial to problem solving within any environment. Do people in drier and warmer climates not benefit from being able to predict events around them as much as people in colder climates?

If a trait is equally beneficial across environments, as general intelligence would be expected to be, then the differences between environments that cause differences in many physical traits between separated populations would not cause differences in the prevalence of such a generally adaptive trait.

 

[ronburgundy]

How do you know that? Studies seem to suggest that differences are mostly genetic

But nothing indicates that there are differences between populations.

That's quite a claim.

No, it is the scientific reality. What is "quite a claim" with zero scientific support is that the differences in group level averages are the result of genetics. All research linking intelligence to genes is based upon within group variance, which has no logical implications for the source of between group differences.

 

[ronburgundy]

That's quite a claim.

Racists have been trying to prove it for some time but haven't found anything that actually shows it. Everything we see is cultural or medical (nutrition, disease), not genetic.

But that’s not correct. Mass government spending on education has done nothing to close the achievement gaps. And, curiously, these gaps are largest where the local culture is anti-hereditarian and kneels at the social justice altar, e.g., Berkley, CA, and Madison, WI.

Achievement gaps in math and reading between blacks and whites in the US are about half what they were in the 1970's.
https://cepa.stanford.edu/educational-opportunity-monitoring-project/achievement-gaps/race/

 

[ronburgundy]

How do you know that? Studies seem to suggest that differences are mostly genetic

But nothing indicates that there are differences between populations.

Except when you need an organ or bone marrow transplant. Or look at PISA scores.

Add PISA scores to the growing list of things (like genetics, evolution, intelligence, and statistics) about which you are dangerously ignorant.

https://nces.ed.gov/surveys/pisa/pisa2015/pisa2015highlights_3d.asp

PISA scores are massively determined by quality of one's environment. In all 75 countries for which there is data, there is a huge gap in PISA scores due to economic status. The gap is often around 100 points between the lower and upper quartile in SES, which is a full standard deviation. And the middle two quartiles almost always fall in between. This is true in every part of the world, both for countries like the USA where there is lots of ethnic diversity that is correlated with SES, and countries with high ethnic homogeneity.