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Iran and Saudi Arabia signal the start of a new era, with China front and center

Most of what is going on there is factional fighting within Islam--mostly Sunni vs Shia. Much worse than anything outsiders have done.
Not to mention that Iran and KSA both had different approaches.

When Iran wanted to renegotiate unfair oil deals, the Brits and the US arranged a coup and inserted their own puppet. Didn't turn out so well in the long run.
The oil deals weren't that unfair when they were made. The situation changed and the various countries decided to seize the equipment and keep the profit.

But around the same time, in KSA Americans did renegotiate the deal and became "friends" with the regime. That also didn't turn out so well.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Yeah, there was no good answer. Fundamentally, radical Islam insists on being #1 and moderate Islam generally takes the appeasement approach with the radicals--direct their rage outwards rather than actually deal with it. Saudi Arabia has woken up to the danger of this approach, Pakistan is currently getting a lesson in it.
 
The oil deals weren't that unfair when they were made.
Do you realize what this sounds like?
You handwaving away the toppling of an elected government because "The oil deals made weren't that unfair"

Seriously.
We put Iran into a tyranny for oil profits. Then we supported our puppet Shah by whatever means necessary, no matter how brutal. When the Iranian people took their country back we launched a war that killed nearly a million Iranians, using Saddam Hussein as a weapon.

No.
Just no.
Tom
 
The oil deals weren't that unfair when they were made.
Do you realize what this sounds like?
You handwaving away the toppling of an elected government because "The oil deals made weren't that unfair"

Seriously.
We put Iran into a tyranny for oil profits. Then we supported our puppet Shah by whatever means necessary, no matter how brutal. When the Iranian people took their country back we launched a war that killed nearly a million Iranians, using Saddam Hussein as a weapon.
The Iranian people did not take their country back! As is typical for "revolutions" against not all that oppressive governments the result was bondage to a far worse government.
 
The Iranian people did not take their country back!
Yes, they did.

Our pet king got replaced by an Ayatollah because the Iranian people hated Pahlavi so much.
As is typical for "revolutions" against not all that oppressive governments the result was bondage to a far worse government.

We could have helped the Iranians towards a better government. Why didn't we?
Tom
 
The Iranian people did not take their country back!
Yes, they did.

Our pet king got replaced by an Ayatollah because the Iranian people hated Pahlavi so much.
As is typical for "revolutions" against not all that oppressive governments the result was bondage to a far worse government.

We could have helped the Iranians towards a better government. Why didn't we?
Tom
The Ayatollah and those who have come after are far more repressive than the Shah ever was. I've been in several repressive countries, Shah-era Iran was not like them and a lot better than the various regimes to the east. (Admittedly I was young and wouldn't see as much as someone older and more educated, but there was a difference that was obvious even to me.)
 
Although it may be a very good thing overall, this development saddens me.

Throughout the 20th century the U.S.A. really was a great beacon of prosperity, freedom and democracy. This is NOT hyperbole or right-wing hype. Neither Nazi Germany nor the Soviet Empire could have been defeated without U.S. Military might. It was in the U.S. that the transistor was invented and much more. America landed men on the Moon. If calibrated by its dollar cost, Truman's Marshall Plan was the most altruistic event in the long history of international relations.

America's success owed much to luck and simple geography, but the pluck of the American people and the intelligence of their leaders also played a role. Many of us were proud to call ourselves Americans.

This is all in contrast to China, which is not a democracy, which persecutes entire races and religions, which orchestrates "group-think," and which is corrupt and threatens environmental disasters. Whatever one thinks of the U.S. government, China's is more evil.

Saudi Arabia has been "friends" with the U.S. for a long time -- witness their Crown Prince's $3 billion investment in Jared Kushner's "investment fund." Many of us thought American influence on the Gulf States it protects could have been exercised more wisely.

Iran is a country the majority of whose people like America, and whose government has reached out to the U.S.A. several times in recent decades. Obama negotiating an end to their nuclear weapons aspiration should have been a great triumph for all concerned. A detente between U.S. and Iran could have helped the entire Middle East to bloom. (Yes, Iran sponsors terrorism but so do other major players including, despite apologists from both the American left and the right, Netanyahu's Israel.)

But these hopes were all dashed when the Kremlin was able to install their stooge in the White House. The Iran deal and TPP went up in smoke. Friends began turning away from the U.S. in disgust. And now it is China which may take the lead in bringing peace and prosperity to the Middle East, and perhaps to Africa and elsewhere.

So this development makes me ineffably sad.
 
America landed men on the Moon.
Ah, yes. Good old American know-how.

As provided by good old Americans like Dr Wernher von Braun.


Don't know which is more laughable. Your implication that von Braun went to the Moon single- handedly. Or your failure to know that immigrants have always been one of America's greatest assets.
 
Anyway, von Braun wasn't the only outstanding engineer in the world. Who WAS unique was JFK with his "crazy" vision.
 
Your implication that von Braun went to the Moon single- handedly.
I made no such implication. The moon landings were a massive team project, successfully achieved by the Germans despite their losing a major war in the middle of the program, and having to persuade the Americans to fund the remainder.

Von Braun was merely one of the more visible and well known, and (most importantly) the one who is the subject of a Tom Lehrer song.

It's rather debatable whether the German rocket engineers and scientists who built the Apollo program were "immigrants", too - they were rounded up and told that they could go to the US and carry on their work, or be tried for war crimes and hanged.

"Immigrants" gives the impression that they yearned to travel to the USA as they saw it as a land of opportunity and hope. They saw the Third Reich as their most desirable place to work, and left only because it had been destroyed (despite their best efforts).
 
Anyway, von Braun wasn't the only outstanding engineer in the world. Who WAS unique was JFK with his "crazy" vision.
I don't know which is the more laughable. Your implication that JFK was the only person dreaming of sending men to the Moon, or your failure to know that US Presidents don't write their own speeches.
 
Anyway, von Braun wasn't the only outstanding engineer in the world. Who WAS unique was JFK with his "crazy" vision.
I don't know which is the more laughable. Your implication that JFK was the only person dreaming of sending men to the Moon, or your failure to know that US Presidents don't write their own speeches.

I'm glad we're all laughing! But a few minutes of Googling would correct your gross ignorance about JFK's personal push for the Moon.
 
Iran itself was the winner in the Iraq War, politically even if not militarily. Yet more evidence that that war was a failure.

How Iran Won the U.S. War in Iraq - "A trove of secret intelligence cables obtained by The Intercept reveals Tehran’s political gains in Iraq since the 2003 invasion."
Today, Iran enjoys privileged access to Iraq’s political system and economy, while the United States has been reduced to a minor player. Iraqis themselves remain fractiously divided; many of their own political elites are close allies of Iran. The Ministry of Intelligence and Security cables, which were written between 2013 and 2015, the peak of the international campaign against ISIS, provide no shortage of examples of the expansion of Iran’s influence in Iraq. While helping train and organize Iraqi security forces who are ideologically tied to the Islamic Republic, activities documented at length in the cables, Iranian officials had also been routinely involved in promoting favored Iraqi politicians to important roles in the Iraqi government to protect Iran’s economic and political interests. One classified 2014 report contained in the trove of Iranian cables described then-future Iraqi Prime Minister Adil Abdul-Mahdi as having a “special relationship” with Iran and named a laundry list of other Iraqi cabinet members who were close with the Islamic Republic — often people who had spent years exiled in Iran. The cables discuss how these close relationships have benefitted Iran, including by having sympathetic Iraqi officials give Iran access to Iraqi airspace and vital transportation connections with their allies in Syria.
 
By the way, it's 20 years anniversary of Iraq WMD search warrant operation.

Like it or not.
The U.S. has invaded other countries. On pretexts as flimsy as the current Russian pretext for invading Ukraine.

It's just a fact.
Tom
 
By the way, it's 20 years anniversary of Iraq WMD search warrant operation.

Like it or not.
The U.S. has invaded other countries. On pretexts as flimsy as the current Russian pretext for invading Ukraine.

It's just a fact.
Tom
True. The WMD/Iraq debacle was really bad. But the US never declared Iraq non-existent, laid claim to its territory and carried out intentional genocide against its civilian population.
 
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